ConcoursMustang Forums
General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: workhorse on May 08, 2015, 12:54:01 PM
-
Interesting thread on boss302 site.
http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=69447.0
(http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=69447.0)
Workhorse
-
Very informative. Thanks for posting this.
-
I only did something like this once, but it was a concours trailered MCA gold winner. Before auctioning it in Scottsdale, I swapped out some NOS parts with repro, but everything I exchanged would have been completely acceptable for MCA concours, so I did not change anything that would have compromised the car from getting anything less than a gold. For instance, I replaced the NOS trunk mat with a repro, NOS gas cap with a repro and some other little odds and ends. These kind of NOS parts are not required for concours and are overkill to the standards of the class.
On the '65 K convertible T-bred car I did that has won the authenticity award 2X, nothing has been changed from when it was shown. There were no 'borrowed' parts used either. If the owner ever decides to sell, we will discuss whether or not to remove some of the parts, but then that would be completely disclosed when selling. I would never strip down a T-bred car of all its rare parts and try to sell it on 'T-bred' merits/awards.
-
Interesting subject. It seems, to me, anytime a hobby or a past time becomes an obsession dishonesty and the subsequent rationalizations are not far behind. Brian
-
Interesting subject. It seems, to me, anytime a hobby or a past time becomes an obsession dishonesty and the subsequent rationalizations are not far behind. Brian
Very true. If a car is being offered for sale, all the parts that are on it in any pictures, advertisements, etc., should be intact. I have heard of guys switching parts after a deposit was taken. Total thieves.
-
I agree
-
Anyone considering using judging sheet(s) to verify authenticity when buying a car needs to get the seller to sign a disclosure where the seller affirms the car is exactly as described in the judging sheet(s). If the seller won't sign - then don't buy. The more expensive the car in question, the more you should rely on a legally binding seller disclosure.
-
Anyone considering using judging sheet(s) to verify authenticity when buying a car needs to get the seller to sign a disclosure where the seller affirms the car is exactly as described in the judging sheet(s).
That would be a good start, but what's to say something was overlooked in the judging, which is quite common?
About the only failsafe is to have a pre-purchase inspection done by an expert who knows what's right and wrong.
-
That would be a good start, but what's to say something was overlooked in the judging, which is quite common?
About the only failsafe is to have a pre-purchase inspection done by an expert who knows what's right and wrong.
/\/\/\ Best advise. It may cost a few bucks up front, but save a lot more in the long run. And, if you can, go with cash in hand and take the vehicle with you immediately. Don't forget to get insurance immediately!
-
About the only failsafe is to have a pre-purchase inspection done by an expert who knows what's right and wrong.
...and keeping your fingers crossed that the seller doesn't help himself until the delivery of the car has taken place. :-\
-
That would be a good start, but what's to say something was overlooked in the judging, which is quite common?
About the only failsafe is to have a pre-purchase inspection done by an expert who knows what's right and wrong.
Add to this, take allot of pictures of details and parts during that inspection to confirm later what was there at the time. Keep those pictures on the card or chip (no renaming, altering, adjusting ....) with the car's paperwork just in case.
Still things will get missed and overlooked but given the situation think its be best path to choose.
-
There is a famous Corvette dealer in the Midwest, where I have several friends that insist on taking delivery of the car immediately after the inspection, not waiting till the next day, etc. just for this reason and that dealer's reputation of switching parts.
-
What's your opinion on "borrowed parts" in classes that require original or date code correct nos parts? Is it a form of cheating? I think it is. What say you.
-
What's your opinion on "borrowed parts" in classes that require original or date code correct nos parts? Is it a form of cheating? I think it is. What say you.
If the parts are borrowed and only installed on the car for a show and then removed afterwards, then I would have to say that is cheating. I don't know how it's possible to know the parts are borrowed though.
-
Think we're mixing selling a winning car without all the winning parts and showing a car with parts from different sources. Not sure if this is going to read as I expect it to be read but I'll give it a try
IMHO it's not "cheating" since the rules don't require all the parts to be original to that particular car and since plenty of parts are removed, replaced and so on during a restoration. So this seems to be only about (in the showing part of the discussion) when they were changed, added or replaced. BTW the rules don't require you to even own the car - theoretically you could borrow or rent a car and show it. Yes its been done.
Is it "cheating" to blend in new metal into another panel so that it looks untouched? Or using a quality reproduction part in place of an unfound original? Is it the source of the parts that makes it "wrong"? Can I take a better part from another one I own and use it on the car I'm showing and never remove it?
At this point I believe that a judge is asked to evaluate only what is presented to them - at that moment, with no regard for how good or poor the car was when it started the restoration process, how much money the owner had/has or in fact anything about the owner or restorer. The car is what it is and the rules guide the judges through the limitations spelled out in them
IMHO at this point its not my job as a judge to concern myself with where the parts came from, how much was paid for them or what will happen with the car once it leaves the show field, after the event, show ....... I can have my opinion - but after the show that is all it is. But I guess this new question is not directly aimed at judging a car or the award but the choice an owner or restorer makes. Making policing and the judging aspect moot.
Think this line of discussion will only lead us to opening a can of worms many of us have been down before. Fun for a little while, discussing the possibilities and unanswerable questions, but to what end?
Now the whole selling a "award car", without all the parts, that made it an awards car without full disclosure is a completely different subject.
Just me - and I respect that others may have differing opinions
Oh - did find the use of the term "cobbing" and interesting one.
-
/\/\/\ Good points, Sir. The original intent of the thread was about larceny by conversion regarding selling a car "as concourse", then swapping out the parts that made the car fit that description. Somehow, we got off the track and into the "what-ifs" of judging. Thank You for clearing that subject up concisely.
-
BTW, the author of that article in the Ford mag did a book called "Corvette Masterpieces" than showed some cars as authentic that were frauds, he said he didn't know at the time he wrote the book……. :)
-
I thought this reply on VMF was pretty interesting.
"Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact, Is this the exact car that won the concours, all original award? If something has been changed then the answer is no. (2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, Again, if they made a change, then they know this not to be true. (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, Did they disclose that the items on the car when it won these awards have since been changed? (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, Is the buyer justified in believing the sellers statements to be true based on undisputed facts (in this case a well known collector or a nationally recognized award? and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result. Did they overpay for a false car?
This is fraud.
On a lesser note, swapping parts "among friends" to "win" an award only shows that all parties involved are as shallow as a $99 Maaco paint job.
Workhorse
-
If a "hobbyist" is after a judging award and borrows parts to simply to enable a car to attain a higher judging award then have at it. I don't see anything wrong with that. After all, it is simply a piece of paper to share with your fellow hobbyist friends.
However, IF the results of the judged event are to be used to help market/promote the car for resale and the missing/borrowed parts are not clearly disclosed- then all of us suffer for the lack of integrity of everyone complicit with the aforementioned actions. The risk is that all cars suffer some devaluation due to the inference that the hobby is rife with fraudulent behavior. I also don't think it is the responsibility of judges to verify the origination of parts on a car to be judged. Where they came from, who they belong to and if they will be on the car 20 minutes after the judging is complete seems a bit much to put on the judge at an MCA event.
Thanks to e-bay, the proliferation of made-for-TV restorations/auctions, consignment sellers and the above behavior - bottom line is buyer beware in this "hobby."
-
Seems the organizations that judge these cars may need to add some type of disclaimer to the judging sheets/results that states something to the effect that the car was judged as represented at the location specified. After the judging is completed, it cannot be guaranteed that the car is in the same condition, with the same parts as when judged.
If judging sheets are used to place a +value on a car, then that may open up the judging organization in some manner.
As far as the swapping out friends' parts for shows... it may not be 'cheating' from the judges perspective, but it definitely is a shallow thing to do. If the award is that important, just get one made at the local trophy store and hang it in the garage.
-
Jeff,
Borrowed parts is part of Jerry's article so I feel it's relevant. Not sure about other venues but MCA requires the owner of the entry to be a current MCA member. Borrowing parts to get an award is cheating in my opinion. If a friend lends you a promotional item such as a license plate that is cool but not judged no big deal. However, the practice of borrowing parts has gotten worse recently in my opinion. I'm sure you remember the SAAC Premier Shelby that was going for the triple crown in Des Moines a couple years ago. Somewhere between SAAC & MCA key parts fell off the car? Fact is the lease expired on the borrowed parts? Not a pleasant situation for several judges and the owners. Still it continues to happen in the top classes. Some restorers even brag about borrowed parts during judging. This practice of borrowed parts often leads up to unethical advertising in sale of the car down the road. Will the seller disclose the car had borrowed parts when it won the awards? It's my opinion Borrowed parts and falsely advertising "award car" are both unethical and often the same.
Fortunately most owners have the integrity to not cheat or deceive to win a trophy or sell a car.
-
Seems the organizations that judge these cars may need to add some type of disclaimer to the judging sheets/results that states something to the effect that the car was judged as represented at the location specified. After the judging is completed, it cannot be guaranteed that the car is in the same condition, with the same parts as when judged.
If judging sheets are used to place a +value on a car, then that may open up the judging organization in some manner.
As far as the swapping out friends' parts for shows... it may not be 'cheating' from the judges perspective, but it definitely is a shallow thing to do. If the award is that important, just get one made at the local trophy store and hang it in the garage.
This is the legal disclaimer we have on NCRS Awards: "NCRS does NOT certify or in any other way attest to the originality of any car receiving ANY NCRS judging award. NCRS judging awards represent the opinions of volunteer judges on a given date as they understand and interpret the standards, which may or may not be correct. Any subsequent purchaser, observer, or judge should evaluate such car ONLY on the basis of their knowledge and opinion and WITHOUT RELIANCE ON ANY NCRS JUDGING AWARD."
This covers most everything, including parts cobbing
-
*****
- CECaspian65
Seems the organizations that judge these cars may need to add some type of disclaimer to the judging sheets/results that states something to the effect that the car was judged as represented at the location specified. After the judging is completed, it cannot be guaranteed that the car is in the same condition, with the same parts as when judged.
The MCA is now doing this as shown on the Certificate of Achievement disclaimer. We thought some down the road some one would use it to prove the car's worthiness at a sale or auction. We felt compiled to add the disclaimer to protect the club and future buyers.
Marty
-
On a lesser note, swapping parts "among friends" to "win" an award only shows that all parties involved are as shallow as a $99 Maaco paint job.
Just as bad as 5-year olds wearing makeup, hair extensions and false teeth to win a beauty pageant. Creepy. That'll be the next reality show - "Concours & Cobbers". ;D
-
The MCA is now doing this as shown on the Certificate of Achievement disclaimer. We thought some down the road some one would use it to prove the car's worthiness at a sale or auction. We felt compiled to add the disclaimer to protect the club and future buyers.
Marty
Thanks Marty, that's a good start, but from what I understand, these certificates have to be requested and are not free. Similar statements on the actual judging sheets might be something to consider.
-
Oh - did find the use of the term "cobbing" and interesting one.
I wonder if fellow member Bryan Cobb agrees :)
-
Oh - did find the use of the term "cobbing" and interesting one.
I did also. This is what I found
verb
Word forms: cobs, cobbing, cobbed
8.(transitive) (British, informal) to beat, esp on the buttocks
Perhaps this would be an appropriate punishment for those involved? Ha.
-
Thanks Marty, that's a good start, but from what I understand, these certificates have to be requested and are not free. Similar statements on the actual judging sheets might be something to consider.
That is a great suggestion, that should be considered.