ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Processes, Products & Techniques => Topic started by: argreenheads on October 22, 2015, 09:08:06 PM
-
Please Help,.. I P/O ed a lot of my parts like the steering box, hood hinges, latches and ect. They turned out beautiful. matter of fact, Ill try to post a pick. However, the bolts, washers and what nots did not. for the last few weeks I have painfully polished every bolt and part. I first took photos of each piece with index cards to where they go. Then I separated them into small batches. next, I degreased for several days in a soak wire brushing them every day or so. then washed them good and put them into a tumbler. They look great at this point but I tried a small batch in the p/o and they came out very spotty and looked terrible. For the first time, I found myself looking up the prices on the AMK bolt packages. I really want to use the original bolts but I can not stand to use these the way they came out. Im now degreasing this batch and plain to re tumble and start over. What is the trick here. Should I just but the AMK or am I missing something. I really thought they would turn out like the other parts but I was wrong.. need so help here. frustrated ...
-
Oh yeah.. note to self... if using a fish cooker to phosphate, do not spray wd-40 on the removed parts near the flame unless you want a fire in your wifes car garage. already made the bed on the couch guys.!!!!!!!!!
-
Here's how I phosphate.
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=6994.msg57197#msg57197
Use the search feature of this forum for more.
Jim
-
see if this pic of my p/o attaches
-
by the way, I used Palmetto enterprises to buy the Phosphate. his name is scott and he was great to deal with. I think he was in south Carolina or somewhere close. he mailed the stuff right to my door. a gallon was $114, 3 Quarts was 93$
-
ok Jim, I looked at the post and I still don't understand how you got them to turn out like that. As u can see, I had great results on everything else.. but the bolts where really spotty and look about as bad as when I first pulled them. what are you doing different to get those dark nice results.
-
could it be the difference of the blasting vrs the tumbler? that's the only thing I see different??
-
could it be the difference of the blasting vrs the tumbler? that's the only thing I see different??
Yup. The guy that does my zinc plating refers some of his clients to me that want phosphating because I bead blasting the items first. He doesn't have that service. Even a dip in hydrochloric acid first doesn't do as good as bead blasting.
Jim
-
If you don't bead blast, you''ll at least have to acid etch them. Even after all the cleaning you've done, there is still dirt/grease embedded in the surface. Etching or bead blast opens up the surface pores so the phosphate can bond better.
Your hood hinges look like the phosphate didn't take that well, from the pic, they look a little spotty.
You may want to use a regular motor oil to soak parts in for 24 hours, then clean them off and let them dry in for a few days. After that, you can clean them with a mild soap/water solution to take the oily residue off. Follow with something like boeshield. Although, I have found that's not really necessary. I have some fasteners I did over 5 years ago that I haven't used yet and still look as good as they did when freshly phosphated.
-
The spots might be because I sprayed them one more time with wd rgt before the pic. They are still a bit tacky to the touch but look really good to me anyways. Ill bet tomorrow morning they will look even better.
-
Just out of curiosity, how closely did you follow the directions that Palmetto supplied? I have been familiar with their products ever since seeing Scott's father demo them at the Charlotte Spring Auto Fair over 30 years ago. I finally broke down and decided to do some of my stuff as well as hardware for a transmission I was restoring for someone. I had no difficulties whatsoever with my hood hinges, latch assembly or the various nuts and bolts I did. I bead blasted all of the parts first using very fine glass, then followed Palmetto's recommendations regarding cleaning and temperature ranges. I also utilized stainless steel pots to avoid any type of adverse reactions. Just a few things you may want to recheck.
p.s. You are correct, Scott is great to deal with!
-
I followed them exactly. Wonder what the possibility of water quailty s effect on this process
-
Are you saying to motor oil soak them now or start all over?
-
Oil soak them now or start all over???
-
Please Help,.. I P/O ed a lot of my parts like the steering box, hood hinges, latches and ect. They turned out beautiful. matter of fact, Ill try to post a pick. However, the bolts, washers and what nots did not. for the last few weeks I have painfully polished every bolt and part. I first took photos of each piece with index cards to where they go. Then I separated them into small batches. next, I degreased for several days in a soak wire brushing them every day or so. then washed them good and put them into a tumbler. They look great at this point but I tried a small batch in the p/o and they came out very spotty and looked terrible. For the first time, I found myself looking up the prices on the AMK bolt packages. I really want to use the original bolts but I can not stand to use these the way they came out. Im now degreasing this batch and plain to re tumble and start over. What is the trick here. Should I just but the AMK or am I missing something. I really thought they would turn out like the other parts but I was wrong.. need so help here. frustrated ...
If the surface is too polished or smooth the zinc phosphate will not take well. That is why the items that are bead blasted which are slightly rough, zinc phosphate up much better then a similar no blasted part . Just what I have found.
-
Ok.. now y'all have me worried about all the p/o parts I did do. If u look close then yes I see some spotting. I was really excited about how they turned out until now. So how do I fix this on these hinges and other parts. Do I go dunk them in oil and hope for the best. Or try to media blast them again and start all over. Maybe I didnt leave them in the bath long enough. Can I rebath an all ready donepart? WWhat's ya lls solution here. Leave them like they are? Re dunk them? Re blast them? Or just soak em in oil for a couple days.??? Help
-
Ok then what is my next move. Ive just discovered thay my definition of looks good is not at par. Should I dunk this parts back in oil fro 24 hrs. Or try to give the already treated parts another longer bath in the morning, or do I need to just re blast and start over. Help me here this is getting so frustrating.
-
Putting them in oil now will not change anything. If you have put oil on them, then it's actually going to be very difficult to get good results from a re-do.
-
Ok. this morning I wiped everything down and it all looked great to me other than the one hood hinge that did have some spots. They are not to bad but I will always notice them now. I think they where from just simply not getting it clean enough during the blasting. Im debating on weather or not try to blast it again and re phosphate the one side. My fears are that they will not turn out the same color. I think I'll give up on the bolts and drop the big bucks for the amk kits. I'm pretty sure I ruined them by getting them too cleaned and polished. one step forward , 5 steps back
-
I "soaked" all my hardware in carb cleaner first. Then washed them off with the soapy and rinse water from the clothes washer. After drying for a couple of days, a weeks worth of tumbling in a rock tumbler with the metal filings from a brake shop. A quick dip in kerosene which rinses most of the brake metal dust and gives the hardware a protective coat to prevent rust and you are ready - almost. Let the hardware "dry" for a week or two. Now it's bead blasting time. For ease in handling in the blasting cabinet, use metal shower curtain clip rings for nuts, washers and other small items with a hole, to mount for bead blasting. I use metal plumbers tape to mount 1/4 and 5/16 inch screws and bolts, larger I do by hand. TP Tools and Equipment http://www.tptools.com/ has special containers for small screws, or if there are just a few to do, use a medium size alligator clip. All the techniques I use minimize handling by doing them in bulk.
That the method I use to prepare hardware for phosphating. I do the same for zinc plating I send out. It ain't cheap, but the results are worth the expense.
I'm pretty sure I ruined them by getting them too cleaned and polished.
What "polishing" do you do?
Jim
-
bolts and nuts. someone on here suggested that I over cleaned my bolts and nuts. and probably so.
-
I would think a little bead or fine sand blasting would take care of a polished surface.
-
.................... I think I'll give up on the bolts and drop the big bucks for the amk kits. I'm pretty sure I ruined them by getting them too cleaned and polished. one step forward , 5 steps back
Of course then you'll have to live with (very possible) non-original head marking design and possibly other details :(
-
Ive got the ones I did last night soaking in degrease. Maybe ill try to blast them and send them all to someone somewhere who knows more about finishing them than I do. I was thnking that amk had the correct heads now?
-
Ive got the ones I did last night soaking in degrease. Maybe ill try to blast them and send them all to someone somewhere who knows more about finishing them than I do. I was thnking that amk had the correct heads now?
Think again. A lot depends on the bolt. Some are correct and some are not. Some were correct in the past are are not now because the supply has been depleted of the correct ones. I can't think of a instance of a past incorrect bolt being upgraded to a more correct marking .It seems to be working in the opposite. I hope I am wrong.
-
Since you brought up water quality with the Palmetto chemicals I'd suggest eliminating one variable and use distilled water. Chemical and mineral content in tap water can certainly impact the process.
I think it's been covered by several already, but I'd suggest not giving up on your original hardware. Since it sounds like you have the ability to blast them, throw them in the blaster and try again. What do you risk? ;)
-
Think again. A lot depends on the bolt. Some are correct and some are not. Some were correct in the past are are not now because the supply has been depleted of the correct ones. I can't think of a instance of a past incorrect bolt being upgraded to a more correct marking .It seems to be working in the opposite. I hope I am wrong.
Fastener markings are not something that are going to be "reproduced", in my opinion. Many of the markings are registered trademarks, and even those that aren't may be registered with one or more standards organizations. A company applying someone else's mark (even one from a company long out of business) to a fastener runs the risk of serious legal repercussions. Besides infringement, there are also federal and international laws relating to fastener identification. It would seem that the only way to obtain a fastener with an original mark would be for the original company to manufacture it. There may be provision for a company to use old marks by acquisition of the original company, but that gets into speculation on my part.
-
Fastener markings are not something that are going to be "reproduced", in my opinion. Many of the markings are registered trademarks, and even those that aren't may be registered with one or more standards organizations. A company applying someone else's mark (even one from a company long out of business) to a fastener runs the risk of serious legal repercussions. Besides infringement, there are also federal and international laws relating to fastener identification. It would seem that the only way to obtain a fastener with an original mark would be for the original company to manufacture it. There may be provision for a company to use old marks by acquisition of the original company, but that gets into speculation on my part.
FYI AMK always bought from the original MFG. The problem is it may take 100,000 for a minimum order (as a example ) from the original MFG and it becomes impractical to make back the investment so Max has told me.
-
Even if someone got permission to us a trademark it would most likely still be a huge minimum order for a dedicated run . The wrong marking bolts allow smaller quantities to be purchased from already existing runs of bolts.
-
Since you brought up water quality with the Palmetto chemicals I'd suggest eliminating one variable and use distilled water. .............
Have always used distilled water in my solution. Just one less variable
-
Ok.. here update just incase someone needs this info. Fyi. Learn from my mistakes. I took everyone's suggestion and re did all the bolt and hardware including my hood hinges, tower caps, and ect. This Time I used an electric cooker and distilled water. All parts came out beautifully and perfectly coded. I really dont think the cooker made then difference but I do think using distilled water rather than tap water was the ticket. Of coarse here in arkansas we just got running water a few years back and its probably not the purest you ve ever tasted. Lol.. I woild definitely recommend using distilled water unless u like to media blast everything twice. Hope I prevent someone else from making this mistake.
-
Thanks for the follow up.
-
Stainless Steel Vessels and Distilled water are imperative, learned the hard way. I wipe with Acetone before oil as well
-
Stainless Steel Vessels and Distilled water are imperative, learned the hard way. I wipe with Acetone before oil as well
+1 Plus keep the oiling very separate from the plating process - Or you'll be starting over and making another batch for the bath
Another lesson learned the hard way :(
-
Stainless Steel Vessels and Distilled water are imperative, learned the hard way. I wipe with Acetone before oil as well
Yes, stainless steel "everything" is mandatory. I use Hetch Hetchy Reservoir water from the Sierras with the normal chlorine added with no problems for both cooking and rinsing for me. The PH is close to neutral. I've found air drying is the best method to dry everything. A little wind helps, nothing else. From there, everything get sprayed with WD-40. The only problem area was hood hinge joints but flushing them with WD-40 cleans them up nice.
Jim
-
Been going over this thread and...are we talking about the same process for the hood hinges,latch, etc as we are bolts? I don't recall a whole lot of bolts that call for a zinc phosphate coating. Most are cad or zinc electro plated or black oxide. Anyway,my zinc phosphate method....A 5 gal(or bigger) plastic bucket works fine.Get one with a lid.Mix your solution with distilled water per directions and bring up to correct temp with a common bucket heater found at any farm and home type store. Bead blast the previously degreased piece and then scrub it good with hot water and a good cleaner.Krud Kutter is the best I've found. Rince thoroughly with hot water and imediately put in the solution when still wet.Watch the part and remove as soon as the desired darkness is achieved.Rince again in hot water and dry with a heat gun.Spray with WD when still hot and you're done.Do it outside as you don't want silicon all over your car,especially if it isn't painted yet.Put the lid on the bucket after it cools.The solution lasts for years.
Black oxide on bolts...Blast clean and wire wheel the blasting haze off.Mix solution as directed in a plastic or glass container with lid.Scrub bolts good and rince,place in a plastic cup and pour solution over bolts till submerged,3,4 minutes is good.Pour solution back in container and rinse bolts thoroughly.Dry with heat gun and spray with WD when still hot.
-
Been going over this thread and...are we talking about the same process for the hood hinges,latch, etc as we are bolts? I don't recall a whole lot of bolts that call for a zinc phosphate coating. Most are cad or zinc electro plated or black oxide. .........
Depends on the year your working on ;)
Restorers and platters often use different terms (often just based on the look rather than the correct name for the plating) so it can get confusing. Can't think of allot of things or bolts specifically that were "black oxide" Allot of what we do today in zinc was cad originally due to local availability and regulations as well as the legal stuff
-
I've been following this thread as well as others regarding techniques for phosphating. With a lot of good information from this Forum I embarked on my own DIY phosphate journey. After a few fits and starts I've gotten pretty happy with the process....as others have said, it's best to use distilled water, absolutely clean stainless steel pots or tanks and, one thing I've started doing, is to air blast the parts dry rather than wiping or letting them dry naturally. I also think the final product looks better with a 24 hour soak in oil followed rather than spraying with WD-40...just a personal choice. Following the oil bath, I hit everything with Boe Shield. At any rate, here's a shot of a set of hood hinges for a 68 GT350 that I'm doing. It took a couple of tries to perfect the process but I don't think they look too bad...
-
great start but don't forget to detail the rivet heads.
-
Oh yeah...there's some clean up to do...that's easy...I was just happy to get this far!
-
I would suggest drying off with a towel first and finish with air gun drying . I have noticed if I use the air gun to completely dry large parts like hinges from the start to finish that they have a tendency to ever so slightly have a tinge of flash rust effect. I stopped having that look when I changed procedure to towel drying the heavy moisture and finished with the air gun. Just my experience others may have different.
-
That's a good tip Bob...I probably accidentally did that by wrapping the parts in towels to carry them over to an air hose. I did find with previous experimentation that just air drying the pieces by hanging them could sometimes result in some discoloration across the piece which is why I went the other way.
-
Here's a couple of techniques that we use when cleaning components for medical devices:
1) After your final water rinse, rinse the parts or immerse in isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol). The alcohol will absorb small amounts of water that remain, and in turn will evaporate more quickly during drying. You should use 90% IPA or better, as lower concentrations will not absorb as much water. This step is especially helpful for pieces or assemblies that have small gaps. Water is drawn into the gaps by capillary action and can be very difficult to dry thoroughly.
2) Heat the parts while drying. Even 100-120 is sufficient to increase the rate of evaporation - you don't have to get to the boiling point of water or alcohol. An oven can be used, or a heat gun, or a hand dryer like you see in public restrooms. A small portable heater with a fan would probably work nicely too.
For best results, use both steps. Carbon steel is still very vulnerable even when thoroughly dried, so it should be coated as quickly as possible with whatever finish you're applying. If you can't process them right away, they should be stored in a container with dessicant.
-
Congraduations for attempting the process and making headway. Now for just a little fine tuning. You'll find that most of us continue to experiment with different process to see if we can improve, speed up or as unfortunately it happens, replace an older product that is no longer available.
-
About the flash rust problem, have you tried rinsing them in a soda ash ( baking soda ) to neutralize the acid, then dry?
When I strip parts in acid for plating or after a bath in Prep Etch ( makes really nice black bolts/screws ) I rinse in soda bath then rinse and dry. Stops my rust issues. Just rinsing in water doesn't get all the acid off. My experience the swimming pool biz helped me with this problem
-
About the flash rust problem, have you tried rinsing them in a soda ash ( baking soda ) to neutralize the acid, then dry?
When I strip parts in acid for plating or after a bath in Prep Etch ( makes really nice black bolts/screws ) I rinse in soda bath then rinse and dry. Stops my rust issues. Just rinsing in water doesn't get all the acid off. My experience the swimming pool biz helped me with this problem
What proportion would you suggest of water and baking soda for a 5 gallon bucket?
-
Tough question to answer. I do small batches of nuts/bolts. But, I would try 1 lb in 5 gallons of hot water. I like hot water because it evaporates faster. You really can't over use the soda amount, just rinse when done. Big parts need big volumes I understand that. My steps in prepping bolts is, soak in muratic acid long enough to remove all rust, rinse with water, then use a soda ash rinse, then rinse in hot water to help in drying and I don't have the flash rust problem. The neutralizing part happens real fast, 15 seconds to a minute is plenty. If I do small batch hardware, I just sprinkle powder right on the bolts and then a little water. Good rinse and things are done. I do use the air to blow off the rest of the water, I don't let water stay. You will find it is easy to do and maybe make things go better. I over do the soda part but it doesn't hurt anything.
-
Tough question to answer. I do small batches of nuts/bolts. But, I would try 1 lb in 5 gallons of hot water. I like hot water because it evaporates faster. You really can't over use the soda amount, just rinse when done. Big parts need big volumes I understand that. My steps in prepping bolts is, soak in muratic acid long enough to remove all rust, rinse with water, then use a soda ash rinse, then rinse in hot water to help in drying and I don't have the flash rust problem. The neutralizing part happens real fast, 15 seconds to a minute is plenty. If I do small batch hardware, I just sprinkle powder right on the bolts and then a little water. Good rinse and things are done. I do use the air to blow off the rest of the water, I don't let water stay. You will find it is easy to do and maybe make things go better. I over do the soda part but it doesn't hurt anything.
I will give it a try . I do know that flash rusting is not limited to items that have been taken out of the acid bath from personal experience. Bead blasted parts that I have rinsed prior to painting also would have a tendency to have a tinge of flash rust if I blew completely dry with compressed air rather then towel dry and finish with the compressed air.My concern is that once neutralized in the soda bath you have to rinse with regular water which puts you back to square one in regards to the flash rusting.
-
The "rinse" cycle is to stop the phosphating process, and to cool the parts for handling. I use a large wash tub with 8 to 10 gallons of water to lower contamination from the previously dipped parts. To dry them, replicate the warm, dry California sun. Try a heat lamp and a small fan on them, for 15 or 20 minutes to evaporate the remaining moisture, then oil. I sun dry on a towel. Compressed air has always left a rusty "flash" when I've tried it, and a warm oven is just as bad. Hot 20 or 30 weight stinks up anywhere it's used so I prefer WD-40. On moving parts like a hood hinge, I flush the joint with WD-40, catching it in a pan and back in a spray bottle for more flushing. Obviously when the joint runs clear, it's flushed. I haven't experimented with baking soda to neutralize the acid from the bath.
Have you considered using shower rings on small parts with a hole? From bead blasting to spraying with oil they stayed "ringed". How about "plumbers tape", the multi-hole steel strip? This is for bead blasting only, I use a stainless multi-hole scoop for handling in the blackening dip, and a second scoop from the phosphating tank. A fish poaching pan works on long items like center links.
Jim
-
When I use soda ash ( might be cheaper if you look for swimming pool chem sales places to look for ph up than buying baking soda at the store ) and rinse then dry I don't have rusting issues. I think the low ph level left on the part after rinsing and then hits the air is the culprit. Water is not enough to change the ph far enough. Using the swimming pool experience. ( what I do for a living ).
The worst thing I have done is use to much soda and not rinsed well enough and that freaked out thee plater, I justed rerinsed and problem solved. Left a white residue on parts.
-
When I use soda ash ( might be cheaper if you look for swimming pool chem sales places to look for ph up than buying baking soda at the store ) and rinse then dry I don't have rusting issues. I think the low ph level left on the part after rinsing and then hits the air is the culprit. Water is not enough to change the ph far enough. Using the swimming pool experience. ( what I do for a living ).
The worst thing I have done is use to much soda and not rinsed well enough and that freaked out thee plater, I justed rerinsed and problem solved. Left a white residue on parts.
Minor clarification for those not familiar with these chemicals: soda ash is sodium carbonate, also known as washing soda. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. They can both be used to increase Ph (more alkaline). Sodium carbonate can get to a higher Ph, about 11 as opposed to 8-9 for sodium bicarbonate.