ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: Bob Gaines on July 23, 2017, 04:59:16 PM
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I posted this recently over on the SAAC forum and thought I should do the same here.
I was pondering some of the many details between a manual choke 4100 hipo carburetor and a clone version made up from assorted parts. A friend Dan Case has done extensive research on the subject and provided me with a picture that makes it easy to understand what IMO feel is one of the easiest and most obvious "tells". The manual choke hipo clone carb is made up from the much more prevalent automatic carb core. All relevant 4100's have a cast in boss and stud for the fast idle mechanism. There is a extra rib cast into the manual choke casting that is not on the automatic choke casting.
There is also a thread boss just above the fast idle that is threaded on the automatic choke carbs that is not necessary on the manual choke carbs. The threaded hole can be filled and pretty convincingly disguised to the casual viewer but the extra rib not so much. Carb builders have done a good job of making convincing clones . Some better then others with convincing stamps and tags. If it doesn't have the rib it is a clone carb. The manual choke is a rare carb and the clone carbs have their place in being a more economical substitute for a missing carb on a original car. It is when a clone carb is claimed to be a original carb that it becomes a problem IMO. Just trying to help to inform about the difference.
Thanks Dan for the excellent picture comparison and your continued help.
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Thanks for sharing Bob
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Thanks for sharing Bob. I keep an eye out for this and have thankfully only seen a few times where the owner was trying to pass off a clone as a real hipo carb. Most note they are clones. One time was at the MCA Nationals in IL a couple years ago. I noticed the clone on a hipo convertible while it was being judged, but didn't say anything obviously as I wasn't judging (and I'm not a judge). I'm not even sure it would matter in a concours class vs thoroughbred (?). I got to know the owner afterwards and pretty sure he was honestly not aware. He was in the process of getting his car up to speed and was learning quite a bit.
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A deduction in MCA concours would be fair game if the judge knows how to tell the difference.
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Here's one I saw at a vendor display at the Mustang 50th at Charlotte. The motor was described as a "hipo motor". When I began asking questions about various parts, the vendor pointed to the distributor and asked "do you know if that's a hipo distributor?". When I replied, no, it isn't, he turned around and walked off. He didn't say the carb and other parts were or were not correct, but it was a very strange exchange regardless. I had read some things online about this particular vendor's reputation beforehand, so was prepared. Buyer beware.
The pics show the same carb tells Bob pointed out, along with a view of the noticeable restamping job.
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Here's one I saw at a vendor display at the Mustang 50th at Charlotte. The motor was described as a "hipo motor". When I began asking questions about various parts, the vendor pointed to the distributor and asked "do you know if that's a hipo distributor?". When I replied, no, it isn't, he turned around and walked off. He didn't say the carb and other parts were or were not correct, but it was a very strange exchange regardless. I had read some things online about this particular vendor's reputation beforehand, so was prepared. Buyer beware.
The pics show the same carb tells Bob pointed out, along with a view of the noticeable restamping job.
"Fast Freddie" ??
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On the Shelby forum http://www.saacforum.com/ they constantly expose fraudulent parts sellers. "pookie" or derivations of that ID, come to mind. The analysis of items by that forum's members that are described as "pure" something or other (correct, NOS, original) can be humorous. In some instances, parts are described by people that do not know. I believe they are in a minority. It's the professional fraudster that should be revealed and even prosecuted.
Jim
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While we're on the topic, don't forget the downword small brass tube on the top cover/plate. I believe on other carbs this brass tube is connected up to the hot air / choke tubing. This was never used on the Hipo carbs as these were cast shut/blocked off. I'll try and post a pic later of my hipo carb as an example.
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Here's an older pic of a Hipo I picked up. Blocked off area circled in red.
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"Fast Freddie" ??
The wire racks in the background of the 1st pic would support that...
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Please note, I have seen a HiPo clone Autolite 4100 with a forged "rib" added to carb. body for choke stop. I'm not kidding. Some people will go to great lengths to fake something.
What gave it away?
Jim
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What gave it away?
Jim
Maybe that it was a 2V...
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Hello all. I am restoring a '65 K code and I am looking for a genuine carb to complete the engine. I recently found a candidate on eBay, but I wanted to pass along the link to see if there were any red flags. The part on eBay looks legit from what I can tell, but I appreciate your expert advice.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393977842362?epid=1428899235&hash=item5bbae8caba:g:i0oAAOSw0ftiJ-lE
Cam
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Hello all. I am restoring a '65 K code and I am looking for a genuine carb to complete the engine. I recently found a candidate on eBay, but I wanted to pass along the link to see if there were any red flags. The part on eBay looks legit from what I can tell, but I appreciate your expert advice.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393977842362?epid=1428899235&hash=item5bbae8caba:g:i0oAAOSw0ftiJ-lE
Cam
An unusual first post so I'll go into more detail.
What year Mustang are you trying to get a HP carburetor for?
The one in the e-bay add was only used in 1964 Mustangs (the first HP Mustang was built (scheduled) on June 7 or 8, 1964).
It has the right Ford number, C4OF-AL, on the left front mounting pad.
That's the start. There are other "tells".
Jim
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Hello all. I am restoring a '65 K code and I am looking for a genuine carb to complete the engine. I recently found a candidate on eBay, but I wanted to pass along the link to see if there were any red flags. The part on eBay looks legit from what I can tell, but I appreciate your expert advice.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393977842362?epid=1428899235&hash=item5bbae8caba:g:i0oAAOSw0ftiJ-lE
Cam
I believe the carb tag should be FoMoCo not Autolite. You need to know what boosters are on the inside. Primary should be M and the secondaries are BA. M boosters are nearly impossible to find on their own. If the seller isn't willing to remove the top and provide a picture, I would walk away. I would also ask for a picture of the area circled in red to see if looks like it was cast that way or did someone seal the hole.
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I believe the carb tag should be FoMoCo not Autolite.
In my experiences Ford 2100/4100 carburetors mid 1962 into at least mid 1966 by date, and perhaps longer:
Carburetors sent to the engine assembly plant had tags marked with FoMoCo(R) logos.
Carburetors used in service departments or sold over the counter could have either the FoMoCo call out or some version of AUTOLITE(R) logo.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/4111-030422115201.jpeg)
I have seen both FoMoCo and AUTOLITE tags as reproductions. I friend ordered a replacement tag for his 1964 carburetor and was sent one stamped AUTOLITE which was not correct assembly line wise.
As has been alluded to, buying any of the 1963?-1967 289 High Performance engine specific carburetors is a risk without verifying that what is offered is genuine, it has the correct cover, and it has correct auxiliary venturi. Parts and cores have become so scarce in the market that buying an assembly with problems can mean years of hunting parts and lots of additional money spent to correct deficiencies. I have serviced HP289 carburetors for friends in many conditions from as found grime encrusted complete assemblies to "professionally restored" units missing correct choke parts, main fuel jets, cover assemblies, and worst of all original assembly tags (appearance) and auxiliary venturi assemblies (factory calibrated functions). Correcting an ill assembled carburetor as purchased might require $200 to $800 in parts easily if you can find them. Labor time goes up rapidly too sometimes. I am in want of a C4OZ-9A523-B support (a.ka. M booster or auxiliary venturi assembly) for a C4OF-AT carburetor that has been apart on the bench two years next month. My friend just does not have it in him to buy another carburetor for potentially thousands of dollars just to get one part from it. (I have done that quite a bit for my play. I bought four C4OF-AL cores and a small collection of new old stock parts to complete one missing nothing assembly for one our cars. The left overs got sold as parts and not complete carburetors.)
Carburetor assembly dates that I have collected in my database for C4OF-9510-AL assemblies include so far: 4DE, 4FB, 4FE, 4GA, 4JA, 4KB, 4KC, 4KD, 5AD, and 5BB. The 5BB dated one is on the engine of an original owner car as of July 27, 2021 my notes indicate. Remember carburetor assembly dates were not the day the engine was assembled or the day the engine was installed into a new car. We have been researching implementation of this model for a car's recommission. At this time it seems probable, not proven, that the engine plant started using the C4OF-AL assembly in new engines ABOUT the third week of May 1964 and the first cars to get one of those engine were assembled ABOUT the second week of June 1964. About is as close as we can get so far. Engine assembly date is a very important data point for many engine parts as Ford made changes in many items every production year.
Many will know this but, Ford also appears to have repurposed either whole carburetors or just pre-made bodies into C5OF-L tagged carburetor assemblies. My data collection includes carburetors tagged as C5OF-L assemblies with C4OF-AL stamped on their bodies dated between 4GD (1964 July 4th Week) and 5CA (1965 March 1st Week) and there might be more dates to discover. Functionally , one can convert a C4OF-AL assembly to a C5OF-L assembly or vice versa pretty easily.
See also, related to the auction offered linked above in Reply 13:
https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=26497.new#new
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Hello all. I am restoring a '65 K code and I am looking for a genuine carb to complete the engine. I recently found a candidate on eBay, but I wanted to pass along the link to see if there were any red flags. The part on eBay looks legit from what I can tell, but I appreciate your expert advice.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393977842362?epid=1428899235&hash=item5bbae8caba:g:i0oAAOSw0ftiJ-lE
Cam
Cam,
Be aware that many of the parts with a dichromate conversion coating (anything yellow gold so to speak) in the offered unit are much darker in color than the typical new Ford carburetor in period. The typical Ford 2100/4100 might have dichromated parts to as few as three to as many as six or more shades. Some small parts were just bright zinc originally or leached clear dichromated zinc. Earlier this year I separated parts for a single carburetor into several different levels of refinishing and they were refinished to match in batches. Because I had to send parts out to be custom refinished I made spreadsheets with color pictures of what colors levels I was after to go along with the parts.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/4111-030422140014.jpeg)
Extra time and costs. It is much lower costs for rebuilders to finish all parts the same without regard to how typical parts were done by suppliers in the 1960s. No, finishes did not stay constant for years at a time or even batch to batch. If assembly line like appearance does not matter to a buyer so be it. If the buyer wants to take what they obtained and get it as close as possible to day one appearances all over, considerable additional time and expense can be involved.
Despite sellers of goods and services might say, most commercial work is more of set of practices to remanufacture something and not return it to as close as possible to day one specifications and norms in every way. Remanufacturing might be possible within a few hours while getting every part and finish as close as possible might take a week.
Dan