ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Drivetrain => Topic started by: Angela on January 01, 2015, 05:12:02 PM
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I'm attempting to free a 428 that's been sitting for a couple decades and doesn't feel like turning over for me. I don't see any obvious signs it sat outside or ingested water (no rust in either valve train or inside the intake manifold...the distributor shaft spins freely...etc). I removed the plugs (they looked good...no rust) and injected a liberal amount of penetrating fluid, let is sit overnight and applied some generous (but not herculean) torque to the dampener bolt using a 30" breaker bar. No movement.
Now I have filled all eight cylinders with marvel mystery oil and am letting it sit. My question is whether or not there is a better way to apply some torque to the crank to attempt to break free the pistons. Specifically, I am afraid to put too much torque on the dampener bolt because I don't want to break the bolt off. Looks like the torque spec on the dampener bolt is 70-90 ft*lbs and I suspect I could create much more than that with my breaker bar.
Just looking for advice....tips....tricks....
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Assuming you are dealing with rust/corrosion, you are off to a good start by letting it sit at least overnight. 2nd, if it is frozen that badly, most likely everything internal on at least one cylinder will have significant pitting of rust. If you can get an arthroscopic camera into the spark plug holes to look (better if you hadn't yet filled with Marvel) you might be able to focus on the problem cylinder(s) If the Marvel is seaping down overnight (past the rings) those cylinders are probably causing less of the issues. The ones that do not seap down obviously are. The rings will likely be seized to the piston grooves, pitting on the valves and valve seats and so on. You might plan to pull the engine out to take it apart enough at least for inspection of these items EVEN IF YOU GET IT TO TURN OVER somehow. I have freed up very many engines in the past so this is not just speaking out of thoughts alone.
The best way I know of to get leverage to turn over a stuck engine requires clear access to the flywheel ring gear. Most of the time the most stubborn of frozen engines will budge some one way or the other if you can get a fulcrum off of one of the bellhousing bolts and a large pry bar into a flywheel tooth. Once it begins to turn over, depending how many pistons are stuck, it gets easier as you can move it back and forth and eventually will make it's way all the way around.
Even after it now goes all the way around, you may be looking at significant compression loss at the rings and valves so starting it up may be a problem. Every engine that has been frozen (from rust, not other failures) can and most likely not run right because of the corrosion damage but at least it will be easier once free to take it apart.
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Have you pulled the heads? If not that would be were I would start. Then apply the oil around the edges of the pistons and with the wooden handle of a hammer tap on each piston. Do this a number of times over a number of days and try again.
If I had to - next pull the crank and work each cylinder individually rather than all the pistons at once
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...the distributor shaft spins freely...
The distributor "shaft" should not spin if the crank doesn't. Did you mean the distributor "body" as if you were adjusting the timing? If you did mean the shaft, chances are high that the engine lost oil and possibly explain why you can't turn it over.
Is the engine in or out of the car? If it is in, is it a 4 speed or auto?
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Thanks for the help guys!
Interesting comment on using the ring gear to turn the engine over. I would not have thought one could get enough leverage from those little tiny gears and a pry bar. Hmmmmmm....
Jeff, no, I haven't yet pulled the heads but if after some time with the Mystery Marvel oil sitting in the cylinders she still won't turn, pulling the heads will be next.
sgibbs, I meant to say the distributor body turns.... I haven't tried turning the distributor shaft, although I had wondered about attempting to turn the oil pump with a long 1/4" extension. Engine is still in the car, but barely (i.e. mostly unhooked). Auto.
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Interesting comment on using the ring gear to turn the engine over. I would not have thought one could get enough leverage from those little tiny gears and a pry bar. Hmmmmmm....
Actually you get quite an enormous amount of leverage this way. Out of 20 or so engines I have freed up or changed after they locked up for various reasons, this technique rarely fails. Even more rare that you would actually break off a tooth in the flywheel (but I have, so make sure you have a good deep bite on the tooth with the bar)
Easiest way to get leverage is off of the lowermost bellhousing bolt location, (bellhousing removed) and just a bellhousing bolt screwed back into that hole in the block (bottomed out loosely) Leverage off of the bolt with the pry bar. You should be able to go both ways, back and forth and the oil should assist in freeing up the rust.
I have to now wonder about Evaporust and patience? I am using some these days on my wheels and cannot help wonder if it wouldn't hurt here either...just this obviously hasn't been tried ;)
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sgibbs, I meant to say the distributor body turns.... I haven't tried turning the distributor shaft, although I had wondered about attempting to turn the oil pump with a long 1/4" extension. Engine is still in the car, but barely (i.e. mostly unhooked). Auto.
Thats good to hear that you turned body not the shaft.
If you have a 4 speed, and the trans and differential are still connected, try putting it in 1st and rocking the car. Watch the balancer to see if it turns. If it still won't move, or you have an automatic, I would try what 67gta and jeff are suggesting.
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Did the car run before?
Marvel mystery oil is just transmission fluid with a little pale oil and alcohol added. It is unlikely to eat enough corrosion to free the engine in a short period of time. As another guy said, if the engine does manage to run, considerable damage may result. Valves might hit pistons, rings could break or the corrosion might score the cylinder walls. If you care about the engine, a compete overhaul is necessary before you try to turn it over.
If you want to get it running, liquid wrench is the best. I would fill the cylinders with liquid wrench using a leak down tester spark plug adapter. As you fill the cylinders, it will enter the open valves and run out the exhaust valves to the tailpipe or start to fill the intake manifold. Once you flood all eight cylinders then I would wait a month and try again. The engine didn't seize overnight, and it is unlikely to free up overnight without considerable damage. Good luck.
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I agree the engine isn't going to free up overnight... I'll let it sit for a while with the cylinders flooded with oil. I should have mentioned that in addition to the mystery marvel oil I flooded each cylinder with, I injected an entire 20oz can of liquid wrench and a 12oz can of PB blaster (divided somewhat equally across all 8 cylinders).
I also agree that a complete rebuild is required and that's my plan. I just wanted to see if I could free it up before the tear down begins, but I would never attempt to start and run it this way. I won't be able to begin the rebuild for quite some time, thus I thought I'd at least attempt to get the engine turning again. For now, it doesn't hurt anything to leave it sitting with the cylinders flooded with oil.
I'd like to try the pry-bar technique at the flywheel, but it sounds like I need to have removed the transmission first, so I guess that experiment will have to wait.
Thanks for the advice!
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I'd like to try the pry-bar technique at the flywheel, but it sounds like I need to have removed the transmission first, so I guess that experiment will have to wait.
Thanks for the advice!
You MIGHT be able to get a good bite on the teeth with only removing the inspection cover but keep in mind you wish to have a "deep" bite into the flywheel tooth. A bar with a bent end might help to get a straight-on angle. Good luck!
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Wondering ( out loud ;) what Evapo rust would do in each cylinder.
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Why risk damage? Even engines that sit for years then start and run can be short lived.
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You're looking for a short cut that does not exist. Pull the engine and do it right.
Jim
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You're looking for a short cut that does not exist. Pull the engine and do it right.
Jim
No, if you read reply #8 you'll see I am not looking for a shortcut and I DO intend to remove and rebuild the engine. However, it's going to be some time before I can do so and for now I merely wanted to see if I could get the engine free and keep it that way. I thought this forum would be a great way to get some advice as to whether or not other folks have had any success with such exercises. I wouldn't take a shortcut with a rare and difficult to replace engine. :-)
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No, if you read reply #8 you'll see I am not looking for a shortcut and I DO intend to remove and rebuild the engine. However, it's going to be some time before I can do so and for now I merely wanted to see if I could get the engine free and keep it that way. I thought this forum would be a great way to get some advice as to whether or not other folks have had any success with such exercises. I wouldn't take a shortcut with a rare and difficult to replace engine. :-)
Personally, I think it is a good idea to get the engine freed up before storing it longer. A real good idea. Maybe you can find just one cylinder with a problem as I often have before, and just maybe you can do it without pulling the engine. Now, since the rarity of good engines is more so today, I am not suggesting you should follow this path (below) exactly, but it might give you some ideas.
I'll give you my first example of a frozen FE 390, I bought at a junkyard for $25 (circa 1974) as a core. It only had about 30K miles so felt it a good engine and worth the risk of the $25.
First (after it was taken out of the vehicle) it was freed up using the method with the flywheel. Looking at the plugs and using a flashlight, we discovered that only one cylinder had an issue. It only took about 15 minutes to get it going all the way around after setting overnight with the oil. (we used ATF fluid) BTW, this is common that only one cylinder might have an issue because usually, only the cylinder(s) with open valves will get moisture on the cylinder walls. This applies mostly to engines not directly out in the elements (like this first example I am writing about) After freeing it up, we had already filled all the cylinders with the ATF, we spun it over with all the plugs removed using the starter for a minute or so. Then (while the engine was out) preceded to get ignition and fuel to the engine and started it up. A compression test afterwards revealed the one cylinder that had the rust on the spark plug, was very low. We pulled the head and sent it to a machine shop to have the valves ground on that head and noticed some pitting still on the cylinder wall. (piston positioned all the way down) We cleaned the cylinder as best we could, and after the report from the machine shop that a new valve seat was needed, we ended up exchanging out that head, put it back on and and ran another compression test. We ended up getting only about 80 lbs while the others mostly where well over 125 lbs. We felt it would improve over time so then put it into the pickup truck we needed the engine for. BTW, that engine lasted the life of that pickup (about 75K miles over 3 or 4 years) but it never got the compression to come all the way back up on that cylinder.
Summary, every frozen engine is damaged. Some are worse than others but ALL can be freed up. Freed up does not mean reusable (some are extremely damaged) In the later 70's I began rebuilding engines for resale. I purchased MANY frozen engines and freed up and saved almost every block. I found that kerosene or diesel fuel was a good solvent for the soaking. The method Jeff mentioned is one way but honestly, the flywheel seemed to work better most of the time. Once I had an Internatonal truck engine I couldn't get free with the flywheel. I pulled the crank and tried the way Jeff mentioned. End result was a destroyed piston and a cracked block. It was however frozen from being out in the elements and probably not savable in the first place.
Richard
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No, if you read reply #8 you'll see I am not looking for a shortcut and I DO intend to remove and rebuild the engine. However, it's going to be some time before I can do so and for now I merely wanted to see if I could get the engine free and keep it that way. I thought this forum would be a great way to get some advice as to whether or not other folks have had any success with such exercises. I wouldn't take a shortcut with a rare and difficult to replace engine. :-)
I yield to the superior intellect.
Jim
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I yield to the superior intellect.
Jim
;D
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Just curious Angela. What kind of Ford do you have? Did you drive it last? A little history on the car would be nice.
If it is a CJ or PI 428 take it apart. Any other 428 is not worth that much, less sentimental value.
Using a crowbar on the flywheel will likely cause damage. Using the crank nut or a fresh starter can likely cause damage as well. Several hundred foot pounds of torque is multiplied to the component which is seized. Rods can bend and pistons can break, not to mention a valve which is stuck open can strike a piston.
Using a bore scope as suggested is a great idea. I acquired my bore scope at harbor freight. However, the bore scope won't tell you for sure what your problem is.
If is a standard 428 You might try installing the plugs and pouring ATF down the carburetor until it the carburetor is topped off. Let it sit for a month. Then remove the plugs and the rocker shafts. If all the valves close, then reinstall the rocker shafts. Then give a tug on the spanner wrench as you initially did. If it is still locked the engine is bad. If it rotates get it running. It might run great for years and you saved yourself thousands of dollars.
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Using a crowbar on the flywheel will likely cause damage. Using the crank nut or a fresh starter can likely cause damage as well. Several hundred foot pounds of torque is multiplied to the component which is seized. Rods can bend and pistons can break, not to mention a valve which is stuck open can strike a piston.
Correct, and if the force is going downward, way from the seized rings/pistons, NEVER have I bent a rod or damaged a a usable component using this method. The purpose of my method is only for disassembling of an otherwise "considered junk" engine to evaluate any and all damage for rebuilding it. But as I have heard before...I yield to the superior intellect.
Jim
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After filling the cylinders with a 50/50 mix of trans fluid/toluol I have removed two bolts, across from each other, from the flexplate/flywheel and replaced them with longer bolts (8 grade). I then used them to put a lever (prybar) between to help turn the engine. You can go either way without damaging flexplate/flywheel teeth. If no flywheel/flexplate, you can install the bolts in the crankshaft.
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Hmm... have you considered removing the oil pan and taking a look inside from below? Maybe aside from the posibility of rusty rings/pistons/cylinder, there could be a thrown rod or something of the sort physically wedged in there preventing the engine from moving?
Just a thought.
Besides, you know you really want to see the inside of that engine :-)
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FYI / Update:
After letting the mystery marvel oil sit in the cylinders for a month I came back and gave 'er another try with the breaker bar at the crank pulley. Nothing; she wouldn't budge. So, with help, I yanked the 428 & transmission out of the car, separated the transmission from the block and put the engine on a stand. While trying to remove the flywheel, we noticed the engine now turns over... with relative ease! Turns out, it's the transmission that won't turn.... but the 428 turns over just fine. It has excellent compression on all cylinders except 2 & 8. So weird, I've never encountered a situation with an automatic trans wherein the transmission could keep you from turing the engine over by hand. Shouldn't the torque converter always disconnect the engine and trans? I don't understand this at all.... but at least I now know the engine is in much better shape than I thought.
If anyone understands how a locked-up automatic trans could prohibit an engine from turning over, please, please educate me. :-)
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The most likely way the transmission is the problem is if somebody force-bolted the two together without indexing the pump.
This is what I know about torque converters and transmission pumps and related input shafts:
1.) The "flat sides" on the tube sticking out of the torque converter index into the transmission pump.
2.) The smaller splined shaft connects to the moving parts inside the transmission
3.) The larger splined shaft remains stationary and works the inner parts of the torque converter (by using the engine rotation)
Basically, if the two flats were not aligned with the flats of the pump sprocket, they did not insert the torque converter correctly and "forced" the bellhousing bolts in. If this is true, the front pump is destroyed on the transmission. Seen this a couple dozen times when amateurs change out transmissions, regardless if it is a Ford or not.
Richard
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Basically, if the two flats were not aligned with the flats of the pump sprocket, they did not insert the torque converter correctly and "forced" the bellhousing bolts in. If this is true, the front pump is destroyed on the transmission. Seen this a couple dozen times when amateurs change out transmissions, regardless if it is a Ford or not.
Richard
+1. If that's what happened, the pump is destroyed. Like Richard said, it's a common mistake and an easy one to make your first time changing out an automatic.
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Thanks guys. It sounds like you're telling me someone had previously removed my transmission and reinstalled the torque converter incorrectly. And you're saying that in doing so, the net effect is (a) a destroyed pump and (b) it would be impossible to turn the engine over when this happens? I completely do not understand how this stops the engine from being able to turn over. I thought that without sufficient RPM, the converter allows the engine to free-wheel with respect to the transmission. It appears I have much to learn. :-)
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Thanks guys. It sounds like you're telling me someone had previously removed my transmission and reinstalled the torque converter incorrectly. And you're saying that in doing so, the net effect is (a) a destroyed pump and (b) it would be impossible to turn the engine over when this happens? I completely do not understand how this stops the engine from being able to turn over. I thought that without sufficient RPM, the converter allows the engine to free-wheel with respect to the transmission. It appears I have much to learn. :-)
3-dimensional thinking needs applied to this picture. When the pump did not index the converter, the internal sprockets of the transmission pump would be forced against the housing in which they operate by the pressure created using the bellhousing bolts to force the transmission case to mate against the cylinder block~Net result, an incredible amount of friction inside the pump cavity of the transmission and against the main bearings of the engine. It seems clear as mud to me :)