ConcoursMustang Forums
3rd Generation 1979 - 1993 => 1979 - 1993 => Topic started by: BobV on August 10, 2015, 05:02:57 PM
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Just received my Loveland judging sheet.
Overall, the car fared quite well - credit lots of cleaning & prep work, along with good knowledgeable judges. I have NO complaint - overall the car was judged kindly - I just don't want to "leave points on the table", for the day when I need every last one!
I lost the majority of my points on the battery, which leaves me a bit confused.
Deducted 5 of 6 possible with the comment "Not original, but repro battery is a nice touch"
My car has a current production Motorcraft BXT-56. That is the correct group & size for an 86.
I went the extra step to make reproduction decals, and painted the black lower case semi-flat white to make the battery as authentic-appearing as possible. IMHO, this is as close as one can possibly get to having a FUNCTIONAL, yet correct appearing 1986 battery. Yes, we have to leave room for "that guy" who drives around with his dead, original 1986 battery, but for Concours Driven, I think this is about as far as I'm willing to go. I'm looking for suggestions on what I need to do differently to maximize points for the battery - short of finding and carrying an old dead original. (I'll leave that to the Thoroughbred, Unrestored, & Trailered guys)
One of the problems I see is that the Saleen & regular Foxbody sheets are different. With the exception of the few Fox Saleens that got a different battery, they should be the same...
The CD - Saleen Judging sheet reads:
B. Battery: SSC - Champion.
Pioneer, SC, SA-10 - Motorcraft or Champion.
All others - Motorcraft.
Driven Exception: Black no name battery - mandatory 3 point deduction. All other brands - mandatory 6 point deduction
..............................................................................................6
The CD - 79-93 Mustang sheet reads:
b.Battery:
Must be correct group & size Motorcraft battery for year and model. 2 point
deduction for incorrect group in Concours classes. Must be original in Unrestored &
Thoroughbred classes or 6 point deduction. 6 point deduction for non-Motorcraft battery, no exceptions
...6
Quality of Workmanship, condition and cleanliness .........................................................2
Is there a rule change needed to better align the 2 sheets?
My battery:
(http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp282/GT350Clone/1986Saleen/2013June/file_zps6a5e4d6b.jpg)
I was deducted 1 point for no Saleen underhood plate (which didn't start until 1987)...
Who would be the best contact point to get that rule updated?
The sheet also mentioned "Missing Motorcraft parts decal". Isn't that the one on my air filter housing, or is there another one?
(http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp282/GT350Clone/2014-Q3/file-16.jpg)
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i cannot speak for the authenticity of your items but i would start with a call and letter to the mca asst. head judge for the class. you could also draft a letter to be presented at the annual judges meeting which will occur immediately after the columbus show.
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Battery looks great, nice job!. I'd be confused too, especially since it's concours driven. Keep us posted on your findings.
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Thanks.
Seems to be a trend... http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=11326.0
Basically, an original 1986 Motorcraft battery is required, a plain black no-name battery loses 3, and anything else loses 6 seems to be how the rule is being interpreted.
All others - Motorcraft.
Driven Exception: Black no name battery - mandatory 3 point deduction. All other brands - mandatory 6 point deduction
I can understand for Unrestored or Thoroughbred, but the whole idea of Concours Driven is to DRIVE the car, isn't it? :o
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Thanks.
Seems to be a trend... http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=11326.0
Basically, an original 1986 Motorcraft battery is required, a plain black no-name battery loses 3, and anything else loses 6 seems to be how the rule is being interpreted.
All others - Motorcraft.
Driven Exception: Black no name battery - mandatory 3 point deduction. All other brands - mandatory 6 point deduction
I can understand for Unrestored or Thoroughbred, but the whole idea of Concours Driven is to DRIVE the car, isn't it? :o
I am surprised given the outside the box thinking it took to create you replica battery that you didn't think that others take dead ones and but a battery inside making it functional and the car drivable. I would want to reward the car that had that done. Maybe you can find a original battery and do that.. It shouldn't be hard for someone as capable as you shown yourself to be.
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I am surprised given the outside the box thinking it took to create you replica battery that you didn't think that others take dead ones and but a battery inside making it functional and the car drivable. I would want to reward the car that had that done. Maybe you can find a original battery and do that.. It shouldn't be hard for someone as capable as you shown yourself to be.
Actually several of the autocross guys I've run with have built cheater batteries using a small motorcycle battery inside a full case... ;D
My battery had never been an issue until Loveland - had never received any deduction for it in any local or National show.
In fact, I lost more points for the battery at Loveland than the ENTIRE CAR had ever lost previously.
I've been watching for an 86 battery for about a year now. Not much success, but I'll find one. Every car I've seen shown with one just leaves it on the ground beside the car. I'll either build a functional one, or have "one more thing to haul". Not a lot of spare room in a Fox Mustang after you include tools, cleaning supplies, and a weeks clothing for 2 adults!
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Actually several of the autocross guys I've run with have built cheater batteries using a small motorcycle battery inside a full case... ;D
My battery had never been an issue until Loveland - had never received any deduction for it in any local or National show.
In fact, I lost more points for the battery at Loveland than the ENTIRE CAR had ever lost previously.
I've been watching for an 86 battery for about a year now. Not much success, but I'll find one. Every car I've seen shown with one just leaves it on the ground beside the car. I'll either build a functional one, or have "one more thing to haul". Not a lot of spare room in a Fox Mustang after you include tools, cleaning supplies, and a weeks clothing for 2 adults!
Hence the reason for what you have done and I applaud you for trying to make it as correct as possible. I never see original 80's batteries come up for sale.
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The judging staff differs from one show to the next. It sounds like you had some judges that picked up on the battery. It sounds like they appreciated the effort but still felt the need fora deduction give a few issues. Hopefully the other deductions can be used as a way to make your car better also. Good job on the battery. I would do the "cheater" battery instead of carrying a dead one if possible. But that is just me I know one of my teachers cringes at the thought of working on a original battery.
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I also lose 6 points for a "not orginal"Motorcraft battery. It is correct size and group But it is a current BXT-58 Motorcraft battery.(1992)
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Am I understanding this correctly: a repro/replica/simulated Motorcraft battery loses 6 points, but a plain black no-name is only a 3 point deduction? What's the reasoning behind that?
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My guess would be that a plain ole black battery wouldn't be misleading where one that was doctored up t look like an original my in fact have some details incorrect and the MCA would want to discourage the spread of misinformation.
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I currently place the correct OEM Group BX-63 Motorcraft battery in my car during concours judging. (I prefer that to simply placing it next to the car.) Prior to that I only received a 2 point deduction for having a Motorcraft non-correct Group size battery. Looking at the 2015 version of the MCA Concours rules, it does not appear that they have changed for the 3rd Generation cars. Is your "reproduction" battery a Motorcraft battery? Meaning, did you modify an original Motorcraft battery? Looking over the Saleen judging rules, I would have to question why the rules between the two groups (3rd Generation and Saleen) for the batteries are so different.
According to my 1986 Owners Guide (manual), the correct group for 5.0L (and 2.3 Turbo) is Group BX-63. I am not an expert on early Saleens, did they change the battery Group size during the conversion?
Here are pictures of the correct oem white case battery for 1986.
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BTW, the August issue of Mustang Times lists a BX-63 Motorcraft battery for sale.
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Yes, my "homemade reproduction" is a Motorcraft BXT-56 battery.
Saleen did not change out the battery in 1986.
What I have found is that the OEM battery is the BX-63 (my owners manual agrees with yours). Motorcraft discontinued/superseded the BX-63 with the BX-56 about 1991. That's why everybody today says the BXT-56 is "correct", when it apparently is not (it's the only thing that's been available for the last 25 years). BX-63 was only used in 1984-1986 cars, 87-up came withe the BX-58(C).
Yes, that BX-63 in Mustang Times would be the one.....
Now is a dead battery worth $500 to me? :o ::) :-\ :'( ???
(Same guy has OEM catback exhaust @$1200 each too... :-\ )
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Yes, my "homemade reproduction" is a Motorcraft BXT-56 battery.
Saleen did not change out the battery in 1986.
What I have found is that the OEM battery is the BX-63 (my owners manual agrees with yours). Motorcraft discontinued/superseded the BX-63 with the BX-56 about 1991. That's why everybody today says the BXT-56 is "correct", when it apparently is not. BX-63 was only used in 1984-1986 cars, 87-up came withe the BX-58(C).
Yes, that BX-63 in Mustang Times would be the one.....
Now is a dead battery worth $500 to me? :o ::) :-\ :'( ???
(Same guy has OEM catback exhaust @$1200 each too... :-\ )
Yes , life is all about choices.
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Now is a dead battery worth $500 to me? :o ::) :-\ :'( ???
Or, you could ask yourself if a point on a judging sheet is worth $83.33. ::) ;D
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Or, you could ask yourself if a point on a judging sheet is worth $83.33. ::) ;D
It's all a huge Numbers Game anyways and he who has the most numbers in a bank account WINS everytime!
Pick your battles! If it bothers YOU (not judges) that you have to cough up points over an item found to be less than acceptable AND you have access to all the "benjamins" to resolve the issue, then yes, probably worth $83.33-1/3 x6, PLUS shipping, to make it go away for now.
I watched a NEW NOS pair of rotors go away this morning because my USED ones are A-OK for my needs. I am sure somebody out there (possibly a member of this forum) feels the $500 for a pair of NOS rotors was well worth it. If I had $$$$ to burn I probably would have given them a "GO" too!
Bob said it best ;)
Yes , life is all about choices.
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Yes, we have to leave room for "that guy" who drives around with his dead, original 1986 battery
Hmmmm?
Are you saying that's a "bad thing". LOL
You did an EXCELLANT job on your recreation battery, but it is not an original/correct battery.
I AGREE with you that the point deduction seems severe.
I ordered/bought my 84 new and when the original date coded battery went dead I emptied the acid out and saved it.
I didn't spend an extra dime on it.
Here's a pic of my original BX63 battery.
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp75/hopeto/873993dc-bf72-494c-95bf-67a0317be21e_zps6hvu43mp.jpg) (http://s399.photobucket.com/user/hopeto/media/873993dc-bf72-494c-95bf-67a0317be21e_zps6hvu43mp.jpg.html)
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BTW, as a follow-up, have they ever deducted points for the Saleen autograph on your fan shroud?
Just curious.
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BTW, as a follow-up, have they ever deducted points for the Saleen autograph on your fan shroud?
Just curious.
The judging sheet for Saleen has the following notes on page 6:
1984-1993 Saleen Vehicle Certification Label Information
NOTICE TO ALL SALEEN JUDGES
1. Some exceptions to these guidelines exist due in part to personalized
customer orders.
2. Some owners have received Steve Saleen's autograph on their car. No
point deductions should be made on their car for the signature.
3. Carry over parts to the next model year do appear on early model
Saleens.
Now, technically, a deduction could be made for Liz & Molly's signatures on the dash with Steve's...
Yes, we have to leave room for "that guy" who drives around with his dead, original 1986 battery
Hmmmm?
Are you saying that's a "bad thing". LOL
Not at all - no offense intended. Unrestored/Thoroughbred, and MAYBE Trailered Concours cars - I can definitely see having the original battery as "expected". I think (this is only MHO) it's an unreasonable expectation for a Driven car to have one... But, the judging sheet should "leave room" for the guy that does. (Again, IMHO), a 2 point / 33% deduct for a current Motorcraft battery would be more appropriate for a Driven car, and wouldn't bother me. Heck, I might given give the guy an extra point back for painting the case and doing retro decals...
An 83% points deduct is steep - that would be a parts store battery in poor condition in MY way of thinking (NO battery at all is -100%)...
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This situation is perhaps one of the best examples for using the Additional Points during judging: you get 6 bonus points for an original battery in a driven class.
Similar bonus points are used for original dealer cards in the vintage Mustangs.
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This situation is perhaps one of the best examples for using the Additional Points during judging: you get 6 bonus points for an original battery in a driven class.
Similar bonus points are used for original dealer cards in the vintage Mustangs.
When the correct part is not available, either oem or reproduction, I would have to agree with you. Unlike the first generation cars, concours correct reproduction parts are just starting to appear to market.
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I recently showed my 85 GT as unrestored driven at the MCA Columbus grand national show. I got hit for the full 6 point deduction for my replacement motorcraft battery. I would like to find an original 85 battery to had with the car. I do think it is a bit over the top to deduct the full amount of points when it does have the most correct battery available from Ford. Should get atleast partial points. I can understand full deduction for just any generic battery.
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that issue was discussed at the judges meeting after the show. i do not know what the outcome will be.
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................. I do think it is a bit over the top to deduct the full amount of points when it does have the most correct battery available from Ford. Should get atleast partial points. I can understand full deduction for just any generic battery.
How close visually is the current one to the original - that would be the guiding hand in figuring out how much or little value the battery might be awarded/deducted. Just because it comes from Ford IMHo does not make it better or worst since its not about who makes the part ;)
Now if they both (new and the original) both have MOTORCRAFT in large fonts on the cover and the color of the case is the same (for example - that would be worth more than yellow cased Interstate ;)
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The current motorcraft battery vs original are completely different in look. We're talking cars in a driven class. If they expected to be driven then there has to be some kind of allowance for a part that is obviously not going to last 30 yrs. heck my 85 has 3,900 miles on it. I drove it to show on original tires. Yet the rules will allow replacement of tires with no point deduction if correct brand. shouldn't be any different for a battery honestly. It is possible to find old original tires easier than an old, bad battery. Honestly MCA rules contradict themselves with only giving points if you have an original battery(that doesn't work) and say the car has to start.
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The current motorcraft battery vs original are completely different in look. We're talking cars in a driven class. If they expected to be driven then there has to be some kind of allowance for a part that is obviously not going to last 30 yrs. heck my 85 has 3,900 miles on it. I drove it to show on original tires. Yet the rules will allow replacement of tires with no point deduction if correct brand. shouldn't be any different for a battery honestly. It is possible to find old original tires easier than an old, bad battery. Honestly MCA rules contradict themselves with only giving points if you have an original battery(that doesn't work) and say the car has to start.
+1 on the tires. Good point.
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The current motorcraft battery vs original are completely different in look. We're talking cars in a driven class. If they expected to be driven then there has to be some kind of allowance for a part that is obviously not going to last 30 yrs. heck my 85 has 3,900 miles on it. I drove it to show on original tires. Yet the rules will allow replacement of tires with no point deduction if correct brand. shouldn't be any different for a battery honestly. It is possible to find old original tires easier than an old, bad battery. Honestly MCA rules contradict themselves with only giving points if you have an original battery(that doesn't work) and say the car has to start.
Which class are we now referring to; Unrestored or Concours Driven? There is a difference according to the rules. I copied the following from the MCA rules for Unrestored Class.
"Unrestored cars are usually low mileage with original factory parts and equipment as ordered. These cars will be judged on originality by Thoroughbred standards with reproduction or updated Ford Service Replacement parts not acceptable."
Based on that, then I would expect a full deduction for the service replacement battery. Now if we are talking about Concours Driven, then partial points would be a valid point.
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My car was in unrestored driven at grand national show. If it is acceptable for tires to be replaced it does not make sense for it not to acceptable to have an oe replacement battery. It is 100% impossible to have an original 30yr old battery in working condition in a car drive to show. For trailered I can understand it. I don't believe a person showing their car should be penalized for going the extra mile to get the closest battery possible to oe from ford to keep their car on the road. Now I could see if they were offering bonus points for still having the factory original car to display along with the car when it is classified as driven.
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My car was in unrestored driven at grand national show.
I am not familiar with that class. I thought Division III A was the only Unrestored class. For our cars, 1974-1993, that would be class URB.
Very curious, what was the class designation written on your dash card?
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no such class name.
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I am not familiar with that class. I thought Division III A was the only Unrestored class. For our cars, 1974-1993, that would be class URB.
Very curious, what was the class designation written on your dash card?
It was URB, but when registering they ask driven or trailered. There is no purpose in specifying that if they are judged together imp. I guess they are still judged off same rules. Just my opinion that a battery that is as close as correct as you can get should count against a car driven to show. My car did very well considering it was driven to show. Only lost 9 points including the 6 for battery. With bonus points was +1.
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As you have learned, the battery can be a big hit on points. Use the bonus points to make up the difference as they are a lot cheaper to obtain. Keep tabs on the other areas of the car which can loose points and make improvements there.
That's just how the game works at the MCA.
As for tires, my guess they thought it would be too difficult to keep track of which tires came of various models. Brands and models of tires seem to change every 6-12 months. Frankly, any reproduction tire would not pass as an original due to DOT markings.
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Both tire and battery concerns are answered by the following rule IMO.
From the Unrestored rules:
UNRESTORED MUSTANG RULES
Unrestored cars are usually low mileage with original factory parts and equipment as ordered. These cars will be judged on originality by Thoroughbred standards with reproduction or updated Ford Service Replacement parts not acceptable.
What is not clear about "reproduction or updated Ford Service Replacement parts not acceptable."?
If you don't have the original battery then a total deduction.
If you don't have the original tires (date code correct - not replacements) then total deduction.
Partial deductions in those areas would be based on condition.
I think some of the previous answers thought you were competing in Concours Driven before you clarified you were in URB - Unrestored.
There is no difference in judging for trailered or driven in Unrestored.
BTW, Predator5S-0149, Great score in URB. Keep up the good work.
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I have a 58c from my 89GT if it eases someone show pain. I paid dearly for it, so it ain't cheap. PM for details.
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I lose 6 points for my battery and I show in CDK (Concoure Driven) Yes I have a Motorcraft BXT-58 replacement battery, which the rules for concoures say I can have but lose the full 6 points. No one can tell me why! HERE IS WHAT THE RULES SAY:
Battery: Must be correct group & size Motorcraft battery for year and model. 2 point deduction for incorrect group in Concours classes. Must be original in Unrestored & Thoroughbred classes or 6 point deduction. 6 point deduction for non-Motorcraft battery, no exceptions ... 6
Quality of Workmanship, condition and cleanliness ......................................................... 2
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While I don't recall off the top of my head what the correct group is for a 92, I would expect a partial credit for the Motorcraft battery. While you may have planned to enter Concours Driven class, you may want to check the actual judging sheet to see what class was used. It's possible it may have been judged in a different class such as URB.
You don't list a location or show so it's impossible to guess which show you attended. I suggest you contact the actual judge on the sheet and get his take on it. The only way to fix the problem is by understanding who might be in error.
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BX-58C should be the correct (original)for the 92 Feature.
Ford part no: BXT-58 replacement--this is what I have
CDK is the same as I always show in since Mar. 2010 The last show (MCA National) was Grovetown, Ga. May 2015
6 points possible--- 6 points deductions -not original on the Judging sheet
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BX-58C should be the correct (original)for the 92 Feature.
Ford part no: BXT-58 replacement--this is what I have
CDK is the same as I always show in since Mar. 2010 The last show (MCA National) was Grovetown, Ga. May 2015
6 points possible--- 6 points deductions -not original on the Judging sheet
I am a 79-93 MCA National Concours judge. MCA is always open to questions. You can always ask why a certain score was given. We don't try to tear a car apart. We try to help you make it better by telling you what needs to be fixed.
Take care