ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Parts => Topic started by: C5ZZKGT on December 25, 2010, 10:20:19 AM
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Do we know really why the reproduction (Antique Battery) folks DON'T make the 22F then? it seems SO simple.......do they need an original to work from? I've never knowingly seen a 22F-I've seen the common 24F and the 27F but no 22Fs.......
NOTE: This thread is a result of splitting of an earlier WANTED request
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Do we know really why the reproduction (Antique Battery) folks DON'T make the 22F then? it seems SO simple.......do they need an original to work from? I've never knowingly seen a 22F-I've seen the common 24F and the 27F but no 22Fs.......
From what I understand they are a small family operation. The tooling for the 22F case is the issue. It will require expensive tooling . At least several people I am aware of have contacted them in the past but they are unwilling to invest in more tooling. Their past comment (that have been relaid to me by the interested parties) is that they don't think there is a market. Quite frankly I don't think they are aware of the history and how many were actually used. It is like most things in the aftermarket community in that they will not be motivated to do anything until we start deducting points in concours for lack of use ,educate the enthusiasts on what is correct ,and people start complaining to them for not having it . Also there was one type that was used from 65-67 assemblyline and another type that was used on the assemblyline from 68-70 . The current 24F repro is copied after what would have been on the assemblyline starting in late 67 or 68 production to 1970. To do it right they should do it two ways. For that matter they should make the correct looking 65-67 24F battery which they don't. Here is a picture of a 22F battery in a car. It is hard to distinguish the shorter 22F length from the picture but you can see the difference in the 65-67 top I was speaking of. Now you can see it isn't as simple as you might think.Bob
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Some assemblyline batteries came with yellow caps and some red caps. I have only seen the yellow and red cap batteries used on the assemblyline. The old Sun Machine service cards indicated identifying a Mustangs battery by the cap color too. I have seen green and gold on service batteries. The caps were identification that seemed to indicated the battery capacity or longevity. The particular capacity for a given application was determined by options and or the charging system.The yellow cap battery was typically used on a base car. I think the yellow cap base battery was only meant to last just barely through the warranty period and was apparently cheaper for ford to install IMHO. I have never seen a service yellow cap battery so I am not sure if it was even serviced . I have always speculated that you had to upgrade to the higher capacity red cap battery when you replaced the original one. Bob
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i wonder just how much $$$ the tooling would cost?? i'd be willing to chip in a few bucks to get the ball rolling. i would almost be willing to setle for a dummy case just for show purposes. that should cut the costs back some.
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Do we think the antique battery folks are actually making the batteries themselves? or having a big manufacturer make them such as Johnson Controls?
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They had a display setup at Charlotte Autofair a year or 2 ago and I talked to the owner. Explained the difference in what they reproduce with actual factory batteries and even sent them an e-mail with pictures of the correct 65-67 style. Never got a response, so I suppose they just aren't interested investing in such a thing. To add to the problem, the "Autolite" name is owned by Honeywell and from what I understand, have little interest in antique reproduction parts.
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For those history buffs out there, a short but interesting read can be found here: http://www.fostoria.org/history/autolite/autolite1.html John
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Do we think the antique battery folks are actually making the batteries themselves? or having a big manufacturer make them such as Johnson Controls?
I have been told by interesed parties that the cases are made south of the border. They may be finished assembled in the states,but I don't know.Bob
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i wonder just how much $$$ the tooling would cost?? i'd be willing to chip in a few bucks to get the ball rolling. i would almost be willing to setle for a dummy case just for show purposes. that should cut the costs back some.
Some of the repro 24F's batteries come as a basically "dummy" case with a optima battery inside. It was explained to me by some interested parties that the tooling cost was in the many 10's of thousands of dollars. May we put you down for a "Grand" or two? ;D
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Battery's are made in Hudson ohio in a little farm barn not bigger then 1500sf and is a family business also new castle battery or axiom or what ever their name is now is a small place too their both +or- 30 miles from me when I talked to them in the past about recreating a 24series tar top they needed and original case I supplied and and then we got the tooling cost which were expensive and that was that :'(
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Well, as a lot of repop parts, there are good ones, and then there are the ones they make.
The 22F battery I use right now is a later 68/69 original case one. To me, this is at least closer to what came in my car (early 1967 GT 350), yet, the only acceptable battery is the red capped group 27 battery which also requires you to replace the battery tray. I supposed this is because that is what the rules say (MCA).
And, if you look on Ebay, there are plenty of battery tops, incorrect and still only later (68 on up) red capper Autolite group 27 the the rules specifically state points off. You'd think somebody would try to even make a group 22 battery top, but, not just yet.
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Well, as a lot of repop parts, there are good ones, and then there are the ones they make.
The 22F battery I use right now is a later 68/69 original case one. To me, this is at least closer to what came in my car (early 1967 GT 350), yet, the only acceptable battery is the red capped group 27 battery which also requires you to replace the battery tray. I supposed this is because that is what the rules say (MCA).
Getting a bit off thread but you can use the repo grp 24 and the typical repo or even service replacement trays work with that fine. Also closer to the original one for your car than the Grp 27 IMHO
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My understanding is that there is NO 22F Battery available, even in 2014, over 3 years after this post began. Correct me if I am wrong, but my question is : Is there even enough room for a 24F battery on California cars with a 289 SMOG engine? The smog pump filter canister interferes, doesn't it? DELCO reproductions are available (with yellow "DELCO" tops) in a 22F and it seems like to anyone owning a car that originally came with a 22F that these should be an easy adapt-to-fit for any manufacturer. Most of us would be willing to go the +$250 to buy a repop original looking AUTOLITE gel-cel, so let's see if we can re-open this can of worms ;D Does anybody even own an early (up to 67) production 22f or a service replacement 22f?
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'…………...so let's see if we can re-open this can of worms "
ugh. let the can stay closed.
Z
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My understanding is that there is NO 22F Battery available, even in 2014, over 3 years after this post began. Correct me if I am wrong, but my question is : Is there even enough room for a 24F battery on California cars with a 289 SMOG engine? The smog pump filter canister interferes, doesn't it? DELCO reproductions are available (with yellow "DELCO" tops) in a 22F and it seems like to anyone owning a car that originally came with a 22F that these should be an easy adapt-to-fit for any manufacturer. Most of us would be willing to go the +$250 to buy a repop original looking AUTOLITE gel-cel, so let's see if we can re-open this can of worms ;D Does anybody even own an early (up to 67) production 22f or a service replacement 22f?
Yes, there are 22f out there but understandably very pricey because of the rarity. Only the most dedicated to authentity are willing to pay the thousands of dollars those batteries bring. Typically a private sale among collectors wanting them to go to the right car. Yes the 24 fits in all cases but is not assemblyline correct in all cases. A Delco Battery in a Ford product does not make any sense to me. It is more wrong? then a repro 24F.
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Yes, there are 22f out there but understandably very pricey because of the rarity. Only the most dedicated to authentity are willing to pay the thousands of dollars those batteries bring. Typically a private sale among collectors wanting them to go to the right car. Yes the 24 fits in all cases but is not assemblyline correct in all cases. A Delco Battery in a Ford product does not make any sense to me. It is more wrong? then a repro 24F.
Bob I am sure that you were thinking of 65-66 when you said that 22F and the 24F would fit in the same tray. The 67 22F tray is 2 inches shorter than the 24F.
Marty :)
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Here is a picture of currently available Motorcraft battery dimensions for reference. Group 22 is NOT on the list :(
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It' been a few years since I tried, but if memory serves...I had tried a 24F in my SMOG 289 car, and yes, the tray is shorter, but I believe it hit the filter can, causing me to take it off (as a matter of fact..it's STILL OFF, though I've seen it in my bucket of spare parts) Maybe I could strap it (smog pump filter can) back on and test fit a group 24 again to see things for myself, then possibly pick up a 24F tray if it actually clears it I was looking this afternoon for pictures of a group 24 in a 67 with smog and did find one pictured. (filter canister was really close) That photo also had the radiator support cut out to fit that battery in there, thats surely not going to happen :)
On edit, I had a date-code correct 22F tray but upgraded to a 24F tray for consistency to the AC option
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Marty is correct 65/66 the 22 F /24F battery fits in the same tray. However the question was would a 24 fit smog car and it will without interfering with anything(other then tray). The answer to that is yes. In the case of a 67 the tray it is different in that it is slightly longer for the 24F . What many did back in the day when the 22 F went bad was to replace it with a 24 f and simply fold down the tray edge that is towards the solenoid and the 24 F fits in the 22 tray. Very common to find a 22 tray folded down . Back when they were simply transportation not too many people were concerned about buying a different more appropriate tray.
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FYI most smog cars including SB that I have seen had the heavy duty battery option (24F).
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Thanks again Bob, Will get another battery tray and go for the 24F Repop
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Here it is! The answer to using my OE tray, I just saw it on flea-bay!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1965-71-Autolite-Group-22-Series-Red-Lettered-Battery-Ford-Mustang-/201005786916?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ecce0e724&vxp=mtr
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Some to me that it would be best to do a dummy case that you put one of those smaller race type batteries into. When the battery goes bad you keep the case and replace the battery.
I have worked in the plastics industry and have done mold design.
Making a cheap limited use mold overseas to make the battery shell and then the top will Likly run in the area of $25k to $35k
If you had to make a more specific case to actually work it could be a little more
Then you have to invest in the tooling to make the jumpers from the battery inside to the battery terminals
If you could get your hands on a real one even if it dosent work. You could make a silicone mold of the outside of the battery. Take that mold and do some trimming to fit into a case of sorts. Make the core plug to make the void for the dummy battery and then you could cast them of resin epoxy and paint them up.
You would be making the top and the case seperate. You could actually pour the resin around the terminals for the top so they would work
Bob
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Here it is! The answer to using my OE tray, I just saw it on flea-bay!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1965-71-Autolite-Group-22-Series-Red-Lettered-Battery-Ford-Mustang-/201005786916?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ecce0e724&vxp=mtr
Not really. It is the correct size but the wrong style.That is a 68 on up battery. The top of the 65-67 looks dramatically different IMHO .
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Not really. It is the correct size but the wrong style.That is a 68 on up battery. The top of the 65-67 looks dramatically different IMHO .
I wondered if it (eBay red capped Sta-ful) wasn't a service replacement you might have received at a Ford dealership, I didn't think it was assembly line battery (Autolite box). Yellow capped batteries were what originally came in it (I thought, though not yet confirmed) and to find an old Yeller just sitting in a garage somewhere....Yeah, just dreaming!
Still, I do not really know why somebody doesn't just pick this up and run with it, making a shell, a battery top (using a heat shield disguises the sides somewhat nicely) or a full-blown reproduction yellow-topped 22F Sta-Ful (or even a red topped) I am sure the investment in tooling would pay for itself in just a few short years (maybe less)
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It is my understanding that Scott Drake is interested in making a correct early 22F and 24F. But will not until the MCA is willing to deduct points for the incorrect reproduction. The current rules state a 22F or 24F is except able. The rules would need to be changed to say the assembly line Autolite battery. Most do not even know what they look like.
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It is my understanding that Scott Drake is interested in making a correct early 22F and 24F.
And if they do, I hope it'll be good old school fluid acid batteries. Not that gel stuff.
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It is my understanding that Scott Drake is interested in making a correct early 22F and 24F. But will not until the MCA is willing to deduct points for the incorrect reproduction. .........
IMHO we should have been doing this for consistency for a while now. Hope we can get support from the early judges and get the ball rolling ;)
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I moved it up the ladder, we will have to see what falls out.
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I moved it up the ladder, we will have to see what falls out.
In the past this could be handled by poling the head judges since its not a rule change since its more of an oversight - something that has been overlooked for years. As a reminder for the first year or so we could just include a note on the judges sheets (as is done with undercoating, orange peel, battery tops) and a mention at every judges meeting before a national show
Getting off thread a bit (more of a MCA discussion) but thanks for the efforts
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IMHO we should have been doing this for consistency for a while now. Hope we can get support from the early judges and get the ball rolling ;)
you have my support. i tried to bring this topic up at the last judges meeting & it again fell on deaf ears. the h/j's are not paying attention imo. i was told that there would be noo deductions until a correct part was available. this is my biggest pet peeve right now.
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And if they do, I hope it'll be good old school fluid acid batteries. Not that gel stuff.
i disagree. a a gel battery in a proper case would be the absolute best option.
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i disagree. a a gel battery in a proper case would be the absolute best option.
The gel battery certainly has eliminated the boiling over damage problem on hoods and engine compartments that the old style liquid acid batteries had.
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i was told that there would be noo deductions until a correct part was available.
ah-ha! a real Mexican Stand-Off! (sorry amigos, no disrespect intended)So the Judges won't do anything till the part is available & Manufactures won't do anything till the Judges start deducting points. Maybe taking something like a poll of all owners of cars that require these batteries & seeing if the market is available, would help out.
I re-opened this "can of worms" last week because I, for one, would rather use a reproduction yellow-top 22F, (maybe even a red-topped 22F) to not HAVE to switch over to "what is available today"...(red-top 24F) this to make it have the correct original look. (which we know that the 24F re-pro's are really just a copy of 68-up 24F) Obviously, I am not alone. We see 22F battery trays for sale all the time and a ready supply 24F repop trays for sale. (speculating, but probably many of these sales because of the re-pop 22F's unavailability) My original tray is in remarkably good shape. I wish to keep it in place. Interstate Battery sells a 22F that goes in and out without any fight, (though it looks like any modern battery does) AND a 24F is a very tight fit with my Thermactor 289 engine. We simply NEED this. Why is it you can buy a "dated" 22F DELCO re-pop for a CORVAIR, but you cannot find a (non-dated) 22F Sta-Ful for a Mustang?...Are there really more Corvairs out there than Mustangs? Makes little sense to me. If I had the financial backing & knew the battery world...I'd get this rolling immediately.
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i disagree. a a gel battery in a proper case would be the absolute best option.
IMO a gel battery doesn't belong in a 60's car. And what's the point of asking for an exact reproduction, when it is everything but. And where goes the satisfaction of a well maintained battery. I believe boiling over would typically be a result of overfilling, a faulty charging system, blocked vents - improper maintenance.
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IMO a gel battery doesn't belong in a 60's car. And what's the point of asking for an exact reproduction, when it is everything but. And where goes the satisfaction of a well maintained battery. I believe boiling over would typically be a result of overfilling, a faulty charging system, blocked vents - improper maintenance.
As if we have any control over when a regulator decides to go bad causing a battery to boil? Typically no warning signs leading up to when a regulator decides to go bad especially one of the repros ;) .
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ah-ha! a real Mexican Stand-Off! (sorry amigos, no disrespect intended)So the Judges won't do anything till the part is available & Manufactures won't do anything till the Judges start deducting points. Maybe taking something like a poll of all owners of cars that require these batteries & seeing if the market is available, would help out.
I re-opened this "can of worms" last week because I, for one, would rather use a reproduction yellow-top 22F, (maybe even a red-topped 22F) to not HAVE to switch over to "what is available today"...(red-top 24F) this to make it have the correct original look. (which we know that the 24F re-pro's are really just a copy of 68-up 24F) Obviously, I am not alone. We see 22F battery trays for sale all the time and a ready supply 24F repop trays for sale. (speculating, but probably many of these sales because of the re-pop 22F's unavailability) My original tray is in remarkably good shape. I wish to keep it in place. Interstate Battery sells a 22F that goes in and out without any fight, (though it looks like any modern battery does) AND a 24F is a very tight fit with my Thermactor 289 engine. We simply NEED this. Why is it you can buy a "dated" 22F DELCO re-pop for a CORVAIR, but you cannot find a (non-dated) 22F Sta-Ful for a Mustang?...Are there really more Corvairs out there than Mustangs? Makes little sense to me. If I had the financial backing & knew the battery world...I'd get this rolling immediately.
You mis spoke. Who do you think is campaigning for the correct batteries ;) ? . It is not largely the concours participant base. The main champions of this issue have been concours judges that have brought up the facts about the battery issue. The powers to be at MCA are the ones that think that the back lash of mad owners out weighs the benefit of a more appropriate part. They are the ones that make the changes . SAAC and Mid America Shelby venues have already adopted a point deduction for incorrect battery.
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You mis spoke.
Bob, I'm sorry I misunderstood what was written by others. So the real problem isn't in the judges, it is more at the MCA level? I'm certainly not trying to get anybody upset, I also didn't realize people (restorers) who spend countless hours and countless dollars to bring their cars to a level of excellence, would get upset that MCA might have a rule change to help bring their car up to a higher standard of authenticity. I am a Newbie here, so the last thing I wish to do is step on anybody's toes. I only wished to help bring about more discussion on a need to have the correct battery available to purchase. If owners are willing to Pony up $250 fee/show to cover the cost of having a lift at Nationals for authenticity, then I cannot see that they would be too upset in getting a correct (around $250) battery that actually starts the car, thus adding points. Maybe I am just naive in what I think. Again, I hope you accept my apologies. :-\
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the judging doesnt apply to me being a non us owner, but if there is no point loss for incorrect battery, do you get a bonus point for having an original?
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no bonus points for correct one.
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As if we have any control over when a regulator decides to go bad causing a battery to boil? Typically no warning signs leading up to when a regulator decides to go bad especially one of the repros ;) .
I'm not sure if I am fully convinced.
From the 1965 Mustang Shop Manual (p. 13-1 Diagnosis and Testing):
Indications of a high charging rate are:
1. Lights and fuses burn out repeatedly.
2. Battery requires too frequent refilling.
3. The ignition contacts have a short life.
Another excerpt from the Internet:•Too much voltage
A voltage regulator is designed to limit the voltage output of an alternator to 14.5 volts or less to protect the vehicle's electrical system. If the regulator malfunctions and allows uncontrolled voltage to be released, you will see bulbs and other electrical components begin to fail. This is a dangerous and potentially costly problem. Fortunately, this type of failure is very rare. Most failures cause a reduction of voltage or amperage.
And yet another one:Burnt Bulbs
An overcharging alternator can lead to headlights and tail lights prematurely blowing out alone or in tandem. Other burnout symptoms of an overcharging alternator are repeated blown fuses, dash and interior lights blowing out and lights becoming extremely bright when engine speed increases.
So, you're suggesting that boiling over will take place before any of these indications?
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Yes Toploader, but overcharging is only one part of the equation. Overfilling is a major contributor to boil over . Also continuing to charge an already fully charged battery ( applying to many Amps ) . If you have ever charged a battery with an older charger you will know what I mean.
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IMO a gel battery doesn't belong in a 60's car. And what's the point of asking for an exact reproduction, when it is everything but. And where goes the satisfaction of a well maintained battery. I believe boiling over would typically be a result of overfilling, a faulty charging system, blocked vents - improper maintenance.
First on my list of what doesn't belong on a '60's era car would be something like a 5 speed transmission conversion, as you totally lose the '60's feel without a 4 speed transmission. But a gel battery inside a decent Autolite repro case is pretty stealthy, by my lax standards anyway….
Z.
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I am considering making a note in judge sheet battery section that their reproduction battery is incorrect with out any deduction. That way at least the owners are aware of it and are not surprised if latter it becomes a deduction. May be then they will start asking vendors for the early 22F and 24F.
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I am considering making a note in judge sheet battery section that their reproduction battery is incorrect with out any deduction. That way at least the owners are aware of it and are not surprised if latter it becomes a deduction. May be then they will start asking vendors for the early 22F and 24F.
Think you would want that to be included in other areas also and probably should be approved...
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Bob, I'm sorry I misunderstood what was written by others. So the real problem isn't in the judges, it is more at the MCA level? I'm certainly not trying to get anybody upset, I also didn't realize people (restorers) who spend countless hours and countless dollars to bring their cars to a level of excellence, would get upset that MCA might have a rule change to help bring their car up to a higher standard of authenticity. I am a Newbie here, so the last thing I wish to do is step on anybody's toes. I only wished to help bring about more discussion on a need to have the correct battery available to purchase. If owners are willing to Pony up $250 fee/show to cover the cost of having a lift at Nationals for authenticity, then I cannot see that they would be too upset in getting a correct (around $250) battery that actually starts the car, thus adding points. Maybe I am just naive in what I think. Again, I hope you accept my apologies. :-\
You did not upset me and I am glad the for the opportunity to explain in better detail. As members of MCA we are all "at the MCA level" but as judges we can only make recommendations to the board who have the power to make changes. Some judges have more pull with those board members then others . Sadly I am of the no pull variety ;) and can only help bring facts like this to light and voice a opinion . It is up to others to use the information to make changes for the clubs benefit.
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I am considering making a note in judge sheet battery section that their reproduction battery is incorrect with out any deduction. That way at least the owners are aware of it and are not surprised if latter it becomes a deduction. May be then they will start asking vendors for the early 22F and 24F.
Has this notion helped much yet? Have the Judging Teams been making notes on "Battery Correctness" since this discussion went to sleep a few years ago? (I know the topic of the battery has surfaced again since, though the notation on "Judging sheets" is what I am asking about, wondering if it has helped to get a Repro Battery going or if it has also gone to sleep too)
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I have not recently judged a car that would have used a group 22, so have not made any notations. I have not heard any talk about the early batteries being reproduced recently.
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there is an mca judges meeting after the myrtle beach show. i am quite sure this topic will resurface..............now where it goes is anyone's guess.
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I have not recently judged a car that would have used a group 22, so have not made any notations. I have not heard any talk about the early batteries being reproduced recently.
How could we know unless you looked for date codes on a battery tray or maybe had a Marti Report on hand?
My heavily loaded with options Coupe came with a 22F and the date code found on the tray confirms it. Maybe it's an anomaly of sorts, I don't know because I would have assumed that a car with factory installed Select-Aire, even as a 289, would have been originally equipped with a Heavy Duty Battery but a H.D. battery isn't specified on the Marti Report either.
I USED to think it was because it was a Thermactor car and there wasn't enough room for a 24F and to have the filter canister for the Thermactor in place but earlier in this thread, Bob mentioned a 24F would fit on a California car. I haven't yet seen images of a 24F in place with Thermactor but I no reason to doubt his statement on the subject.
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How could we know unless you looked for date codes on a battery tray or maybe had a Marti Report on hand?
My heavily loaded with options Coupe came with a 22F and the date code found on the tray confirms it. Maybe it's an anomaly of sorts, I don't know because I would have assumed that a car with factory installed Select-Aire, even as a 289, would have been originally equipped with a Heavy Duty Battery but a H.D. battery isn't specified on the Marti Report either.
I USED to think it was because it was a Thermactor car and there wasn't enough room for a 24F and to have the filter canister for the Thermactor in place but earlier in this thread, Bob mentioned a 24F would fit on a California car. I haven't yet seen images of a 24F in place with Thermactor but I no reason to doubt his statement on the subject.
The 22F was the base battery for 65-67 Mustangs with all engines but the 390. Because of this the default should be to assume it got a 22 f instead of assuming it got a 24 first. Yes a 22 F seems to me to be a anomaly on a 289 air car from what I have seen and investigated .
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My Marti report calls out a HD battery on the 11-04-66 SJ convertible. It still should have had the yellow caps though.
Marty
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My Marti report calls out a HD battery on the 11-04-66 SJ convertible. It still should have had the yellow caps though.
Marty
Marty, all indications suggest that the heavy duty batteries group 24 batteries got the red caps. The base group 24 battery came with yellow caps 65-67and it had a lower capacity. I have not heard of or seen a 65-67 group 22 with other then yellow caps.
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So I am understanding this correctly. 65-67
A group 22 had a yellow caps. If it was optioned to a heavy duty it moved up to a group 24 and a red cap.
If it was a 67 S code it got a group 24 with yellow caps and if it was optioned up to a heavy duty it got the group 24 red caps.
Is that correct?
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So I am understanding this correctly. 65-67
A group 22 had a yellow caps. If it was optioned to a heavy duty it moved up to a group 24 and a red cap.
If it was a 67 S code it got a group 24 with yellow caps and if it was optioned up to a heavy duty it got the group 24 red caps.
Is that correct?
You are correct to my understanding on the 65-67 battery subject. Not to confuse things but to add, the 68 and up group 22 and 24 batteries which had a different design case from the 65-67 all got red caps as far as far I know. I don't believe I have ever seen or heard about a 68-70 battery with yellow caps from the factory.
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I judged a 68 GTCS once that had a group 24 that had green caps. Any idea what that may have been? Service replacement?
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I judged a 68 GTCS once that had a group 24 that had green caps. Any idea what that may have been? Service replacement?
I've seen green caps on service and ag batteries. Think they represented a very inexpensive/cheap part of the battery line.
We had an owner that had a 68 KR that we judged for years at MCA (for the grill badge) He would change out his caps to green to match the exterior color every so often to see if we were paying attention or just to have fun with us. He would do that normally over the winter. Think he just got bored at times, would see something on someone elses car in a magazine and change his even though he was getting a gold at every show before that.
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Gold caps too if I am not mistaken on 68-70 . I believe the gold indicated a higher capacity battery. It was a over the counter service item. I sure BP has some in his magic attic or on display.
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Few examples of the "other" versions not all Mustang applications. And they are the 68-up versions with the warranty punch outs Notice that the two green examples lack the Extra High Capacity STA FULL logo on the top and side of case
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-140816165546-6104696.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-140816165545-6103505.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-140816165544-6102191.jpeg)
Think I'm going to split this topic since its gone towards a discussion of batterys verses a Wanted ad for one. Should have done this long ago :(
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NOTE: The following posts were originally a different thread that has been merged with an earlier thread to keep similar discussions together
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Well, I got my 1966 out of storage Saturday. My Repo Autolite battery had been on the tender all winter, but wouldn't start the car. I got a jump and got the car home. Now I need to decide what to do. I have been looking at cutting the case and replacing the battery inside with a new one. The only thing that bothers me is the Repo is not correct either. I was thinking that what the owners of the older cars need is a correct case that we can stuff with a modern battery as required. Has anyone looked into getting this done? If not does anyone have an original that they would be willing to sell to try and get this done? Just some thoughts.
Thanks,
Rick
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Well, I got my 1966 out of storage Saturday. My Repo Autolite battery had been on the tender all winter, but wouldn't start the car. I got a jump and got the car home. Now I need to decide what to do. I have been looking at cutting the case and replacing the battery inside with a new one. The only thing that bothers me is the Repo is not correct either. I was thinking that what the owners of the older cars need is a correct case that we can stuff with a modern battery as required. Has anyone looked into getting this done? If not does anyone have an original that they would be willing to sell to try and get this done? Just some thoughts.
Thanks,
Rick
Rick, you are not the first person to ask and not the last. I don't know how many times this subject has come up in a thread .It has been a lot. You can do a search .The short answer is it a expensive proposition to tool up to make the correct ones. In most cases it would be a smaller 22 style that has never been offered.That is explained in previous posts also. Antique battery is about the only game in town .They are curently out of product and did a terrible job letting customers know about the situation by takeing the phone off the hook. No one knew if they were out of business or what. Sadly I for one have lost trust and will not let them use a original battery I have for development use for that bad customer relations reason. I don't want to lose my original battery. Could I expect any better treatment then what they gave their customers AND dealers recently ? I don't think so.
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Thanks Bob,
I had seen many older posts, but nothing lately. Just wanted to check. I understand you reluctance to let the battery out of your site. I'm getting ready to retire this summer, maybe I will look into what it will take to get empty cases made. I was thinking of a 24 case with the proper detail between the posts. I know the 22 was standard but I could use the rest of the 24 case that I have. Plus the 24 case will have more room, therefore more battery options. Any input from you or others would be welcome.
Rick
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Thanks Bob,
I had seen many older posts, but nothing lately. Just wanted to check. I understand you reluctance to let the battery out of your site. I'm getting ready to retire this summer, maybe I will look into what it will take to get empty cases made. I was thinking of a 24 case with the proper detail between the posts. I know the 22 was standard but I could use the rest of the 24 case that I have. Plus the 24 case will have more room, therefore more battery options. Any input from you or others would be welcome.
Rick
People have been cutting the bottom out and removing the guts for re use of the batteries for years . Of course it will still be a 68-70 battery style.I have heard countless people discuss the possibility of a building a correct empty case to use but no results. The cost of the making the case is the stumbling block.Try 100K investment. 3D printing is a alternative on a small quantity basis and would be less cost.
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Thanks Bob,
I had seen many older posts, but nothing lately. Just wanted to check. I understand you reluctance to let the battery out of your site. I'm getting ready to retire this summer, maybe I will look into what it will take to get empty cases made. I was thinking of a 24 case with the proper detail between the posts. I know the 22 was standard but I could use the rest of the 24 case that I have. Plus the 24 case will have more room, therefore more battery options. Any input from you or others would be welcome.
Rick
Of course doing the Grp 24 would leave a fair number of the restored cars (often some the more expensive ones) still without a battery to use.
Like many times with reproductions one product does not fit all. That's why the mass part reproducers look first to the number of cars that can use a particular piece and leave the other parts to the smaller reproducers and the more "home grown" or "cottage" part of the hobby business.
And as always doing something 90% correct only invites and leaves the door open for someone to make a more correct part leaving the first holding the bag and inventory after much investment
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The group 22 was assemblyline in I'm guessing 80% of the SB Mustangs 65-67. One of the problems with a correct group 22 battery empty case is finding a battery to fit inside with enough CCA to start the engine reliably. That smaller size limits you to some garden tractor or motorcycle batteries which are on the least usable end of the spectrum. Those are good enough to start a well tuned car on the show field but I would hate to trust one on a hot or cold day when on a long cruise away from home. I have never seen a group 22 service replacement battery for that 65-67 period just the 68 and later ones. I am not sure if even there was a group 22 size service replacement. This is probably the reason that when the original battery failed in a car the group 24 battery was the defacto replacement back in the day.
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May be we should pool our money here to produce a F22 and F24 cases. I for one do not care if it starts the car I use a auto parts store battery for that. I would love to have a F22 case to show the car with.
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count me in. been a peeve of mine for years.
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There are some small high tech batteries that might fit in a 22 case that would start the car, but they are expensive.Then you would have another $150-$200 in the Autolite case. Sounds like the 22 size is the one.
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Were 22 size used on the hipo and shelby cars?
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Were 22 size used on the hipo and shelby cars?
Yes ,in 65 66 and 67. It was the base battery in those years .
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There are some small high tech batteries that might fit in a 22 case that would start the car, but they are expensive.Then you would have another $150-$200 in the Autolite case. Sounds like the 22 size is the one.
You are just a little out of touch . You should research this subject more to get a better idea. If it was that inexpensive it would have already been done. For a comparison dead originals trade hands for 2500-4500.00 if you can even find one for sale . That is a incentive for a reproduction but the tooling costs are high.
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There are some small high tech batteries that might fit in a 22 case that would start the car, but they are expensive.Then you would have another $150-$200 in the Autolite case. Sounds like the 22 size is the one.
I just posted to the SAAC site a comment about AGM (small) batteries.
Group 22 batteries are around 250CCA and Group 24 are around 350CCA.
Deka AGM batteries sells a house brand called Big Crank.
https://www.batterymart.com/c-big-crank-batteries.html
Their 400 CCA battery appears to fit into a group 24 case with room to spare (external F24 is about 10x7x9H). And it lists for just over $100. Their 340CCA sells for under that.
I run Big Crank in my race car and the last one I had ran for 5 years until I left my transponder on for 3 months.
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Bob,
I am sure you are right about the original case. I was speaking of the retail of our theoretical repo 22 case.
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Bob,
I am sure you are right about the original case. I was speaking of the retail of our theoretical repo 22 case.
I know you were talking about a retail price. My comments were in regard to those. If it could be done for 150.00- 250.00 on a limited basis it would already be done. There is demand but I don’t think you are familiar with what it will take to make it. To be that cheap a large investment would have to be divided by many hundreds of units. Just my opinion based on research that others had done on this subject over the last few years.
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May be we should pool our money here to produce a F22 and F24 cases. I for one do not care if it starts the car I use a auto parts store battery for that. I would love to have a F22 case to show the car with.
This has been my battle cry for years now but as stated, cost and 'the ends justifying the means' seems to to be the reasoning (really odd with millions of old 65-67 Mustangs out there)
FWIW, I just noticed NPD is now carrying a yellow cap topper for the 24F battery. (Better, right)
(BTW, my OCD has been digging me everytime somebody calls these batteries a "F24" ~geese!)
https://www.npdlink.com/store/products/cover_sta_ful_battery_yellow_cap_and-208031-1.html
At this time, using a battery heat shield with a topper seems to be closest available option to an "at a glance" correct look of what the hobby is seeking.
Perhaps a vendor's supplier company could take this "Topper" and the topper for the 68-up version that has been around for years now, and design a lower half of the case with an open top that in conjunction with the topper (with functioning posts), a smaller side-post battery could be used inside . It seems that a percentage of the mold work has now already been done.
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I think that is the same topper with yellow caps and a new label. I am still thinking of having a 67 22F case 3D printed.
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I think that is the same topper with yellow caps and a new label. I am still thinking of having a 67 F22 case 3D printed.
I agree, not quite like original yellow cap batteries and as noted "better" than using a red topper. I was searching for an image of an original to insert in my reply and got interrupted, had to come back several minutes later. I have now edited my previous reply with an image shared in another thread of what is offered as an original example. You will notice that the yellow printing on the original is entirely different than the current NPD yellow cap topper.
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But using a topper is still 3 points off than just using the red top battery itself.
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But using a topper is still 3 points off than just using the red top battery itself.
That's only if you care about those sort of things. Agree that the yellow with the shield is closer in looks slightly than the other options
Still not the "solution" we're looking for
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(BTW, my OCD has been digging me everytime somebody calls these batteries a "F24" ~geese!)
This F22/24 stuff was started in the SAAC forum. I don't know why.
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Group 22, 24, 27 etc are the base battery size and the -F designated the posts/polarity was reversed, typically for predominantly FORD applications.
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Did anyone paint the raised letters of a dummy battery case?
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The yellow small letters? They should have been done that way on the original since there has never yet been a reproduction case that you could gut and make look correct for the early cars
The big thread on the subject of early batteries
https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=11756.msg71009#msg71009 (https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=11756.msg71009#msg71009)
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I was more thinking off the bigger letters because the case is just black.
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I'm unsure if anyone has figured out which batteries had the red lettering and which did not. Both are shown in the other thread. Sure some have touched them up on other ear batteries and guess your looking for the type of paint used that worked or didn't work for others.
Going to move this thread to another area since your not focusing on 64 1/2-65 only in this request. Will move it to the Parts section and merged in with the large earlier thread not mentioned above
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I have had a number of those (pre 68) assemblyline batteries over the years and seen quite a few more on cars . All of the ones that I have come across that hadn't been messed with like on a restored car etc. did not have the AUTOLITE painted in red or evidence to suggest that it had been red. given the later 68 up type that were painted red and more common I assume that is why the inclination to paint the earlier ones red. Not to say that it couldn't of happened from the factory but from the evidence It would be out of the ordinary compared to the typical to be painted red. The small warning label letters were consistently painted yellow.
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do you have a picture of a real 65 battery? I'm confused about how it looks
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do you have a picture of a real 65 battery? I'm confused about how it looks
Tar top version used in 64 and 65. Not certain (its late) when the change from this version to the bottom one took place. Like other batteries there are those with the AUTOLITE in red on NOS/service replacements though either version would be difficult to find
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/16/6-290122032548-16909256.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/16/6-290122033521-169121134.jpeg)
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I now have a large format 3D printer. It has a 12in. X 12in. bed.
To print a battery on a consumer level printer would probably take over a week of print time.
If anything goes wrong you start again.
Small figures around 2" tall can take about an hour. More complex shapes, like an articulating octopus, can take 4 hours.
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Tar top version used in 64 and 65. Not certain (its late) when the change from this version to the bottom one took place. Like other batteries there are those with the AUTOLITE in red on NOS/service replacements though either version would be difficult to find
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/16/6-290122032548-16909256.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/16/6-290122033521-169121134.jpeg)
I have not come across a 65-67 group 22 that had red caps on the assemblyine. My observations and documentation that I have seen lead me to be believe that they had yellow caps . Red caps indicated the higher capacity heavy duty version . I suspect that if the higher capacity heavy duty version was needed the the group 24F with red caps was used. At least as it relates to Mustang applications. Just my thoughts ,others may have different.
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When in doubt, read the book.
Per the 1964 Mustang Electrical Assembly manual (AM0003) pg 11, there were three batteries used for standard assembly line Mustangs:
C3DF-10655-E, a 40 amp-hour for 170 CID I-6 engines;
C3DF-10655-G, a 55 amp-hour for 260/289 CID V-8 engines;
C3AF-10655-N, a 65 amp-hour for Regular Production Option, Z-106, V-8 engines (option Z-106 is heavy duty battery).
I'm not sure about battery filler cap colors, but I believe the 6 cylinder ones were yellow, the standard V-8 were yellow and the heavy duty were red. A green cap signified no acid had been added.
Per the 1965 Mustang Electrical Assembly Manual (AM0008) pg 11, there were two batteries used for standard assembly line Mustangs (the same information is in the 1966 Mustang Electrical Assembly Manual (AM0013) pg 16 for 1966):
C5AF-10655-A, a 45 amp-hour for all engines;
C5AF-10655-B, a 55 amp-hour for option Z-106 (shown as O-106), as "heavy duty battery option".
I believe the standard battery caps were yellow and the heavy duty caps were red.
See the attached chart below. The only correlation is size and amps. Prefix letters indicate cap color.
Service apparently sold all three types for at least the 10 year federal mandated replacement requirements. The Mustang aftermarket "trimmed' the selection to "practical" sales.
Jim
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When in doubt, read the book.
Per the 1964 Mustang Electrical Assembly manual (AM0003) pg 11, there were three batteries used for standard assembly line Mustangs:
C3DF-10655-E, a 40 amp-hour for 170 CID I-6 engines;
C3DF-10655-G, a 55 amp-hour for 260/289 CID V-8 engines;
C3AF-10655-N, a 65 amp-hour for Regular Production Option, Z-106, V-8 engines (option Z-106 is heavy duty battery).
I'm not sure about battery filler cap colors, but I believe the 6 cylinder ones were red, the standard V-8 were yellow and the heavy duty were red. A green cap signified no acid had been added.
Per the 1965 Mustang Electrical Assembly Manual (AM0008) pg 11, there were two batteries used for standard assembly line Mustangs (the same information is in the 1966 Mustang Electrical Assembly Manual (AM0013) pg 16 for 1966):
C5AF-10655-A, a 45 amp-hour for all engines;
C5AF-10655-B, a 55 amp-hour for option Z-106 (shown as O-106), as "heavy duty battery option".
I believe the standard battery caps were yellow and the heavy duty caps were red.
See the attached chart below. The only correlation is size and amps. Prefix letters indicate cap color.
Service apparently sold all three types for at least the 10 year federal mandated replacement requirements. The Mustang aftermarket "trimmed' the selection to "practical" sales.
Jim
+1 the base car came standard with the lower capacity yellow cap battery unless the optional heavy duty version was ordered . I think A/C cars automatically got the upgrade. The yellow cap battery was not serviced as far as I am aware . Service replacements were typically the heavy duty variety identified with a red cap. The green cap battery was another capacity service replacement that had less capacity and a lower retail price then the red cap not used on a Mustang from the factory. The green cap was cheaper but not by much which probably why not many were stocked by dealers or sold. I have had numerous 68 and up style green cap batteries over the years. I have only ever seen or heard of the 24F style with the green caps. I have not ever seen or heard of a 65-67 green cap battery. I would be interested in knowing where the green cap = no acid came from because I hadn't heard that before . Back in the day none of the batteries being discussed came filled with acid. They were what was referred to as dry charged. You would fill with acid and the battery developed a charge that was enough to start a car before getting fully charged. They could be stored for many decades on the shelf like that. Years ago many of us looking for obsolete parts for our cars learned that those batteries were not used originally on any Mustang. Some learned the hard way by paying big money before being informed that they were a not used service variety . I still see them come up for sale every so often typically with some un fact checked description. They are consequently have much less value then assemblyline used batteries of the same condition. I have seen where people would strip off the green letters and paint them red then add red caps to make them look more authentic but you could tell from the service sticker that they were not assemblyline. Well done 68 and up assemblyline stickers are now available.
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I have had and seen a group 22F yellow cap battery used, group 24F yellow cap battery used and a group 24F red cap battery used in 65-67 .
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Bob, are the outside cases different between the 68 and up group 22 red cap 45ah battery and the 65-67 group 22 45ah batteries ?
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Bob, are the outside cases different between the 68 and up group 22 red cap 45ah battery and the 65-67 group 22 45ah batteries ?
The biggest difference is the tops between the two styles. The rest of the case is almost the same.
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+1 the base car came standard with the lower capacity yellow cap battery unless the optional heavy duty version was ordered . I think A/C cars automatically got the upgrade...."
That theory has been discussed before. It does stand to reason and I agree that all AC cars SHOULD (they do run substantially hotter and could use the higher cranking amps) but my particular 67 289, factory AC car does NOT have Heavy Duty battery listed on the Marti Report and it had a 22F battery tray that is date-code correct for the build.
For what it's worth, I made the upgrade to 24F during restoration for this very reason...it only stands to reason (especially with the list of options the car has).
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That theory has been discussed before. It does stand to reason and I agree that all AC cars SHOULD (they do run substantially hotter and could use the higher cranking amps) but my particular 67 289, factory AC car does NOT have Heavy Duty battery listed on the Marti Report and it had a 22F battery tray that is date-code correct for the build.
For what it's worth, I made the upgrade to 24F during restoration for this very reason...it only stands to reason (especially with the list of options the car has).
I do not dispute what you found but have seen many 67 AC cars with the larger group 24 tray. I know anomalies happen and the way Ford listed things changed over time which may or may not account for things. I figure if the higher capacity battery automatically came with the A/C package that it then would not be listed as a option on the Marti report. At least that is my opinion until more compelling evidence suggests to me otherwise. It must have been a easy choice for you to upgrade the battery on your car given a group 22 battery has been obsoleted many years ago and would be hard to source.
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I figure if the higher capacity battery automatically came with the A/C package that it then would not be listed as a option on the Marti report.
I think you are correct.
Jim
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Guess that leaves use with a study of buildsheets for a focused year - possibly 67 - to see what they show. Options/battery size
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I created a 65 battery looking out of a battery case bought at Virginia Classic Mustang
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Curious how the warning lettering was done?
The Autolite on the top and sides would not have been painted red.
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The letters are 3D printed and glued on
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So, this is one of the empty display cases they once had?
Do you have any other images or a description of the processes you used?
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Great job .Best that I have ever seen. +1 on no paint on Autolite letters top and sides. In its current configuration with the red caps it represents the optional heavy duty battery. Keep in mind that given information in the service specifications manual that the heavy duty 55 AH battery would use the 55 amp red stamped alternator and corresponding C5TF yellow stamped regulator.
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i cannot open his pic. message says i need more memory on my pc........don't have it. can it be resized?
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So, this is one of the empty display cases they once had?
Do you have any other images or a description of the processes you used?
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i cannot open his pic. message says i need more memory on my pc........don't have it. can it be resized?
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Now that was awesome!!
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Looks great in the pictures. Thought someone would figure out how to use 3D printing to make it work. The printing directly on the core is interesting and makes it somewhat limiting but seems to create a better end product
Going to merge this together with the main battery discussion thread since it relates to more than just 65 and will also show the progression through all the points, details and progress over time. That's over in the PARTS section
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Great job .Best that I have ever seen. +1 on no paint on Autolite letters top and sides. In its current configuration with the red caps it represents the optional heavy duty battery. Keep in mind that given information in the service specifications manual that the heavy duty 55 AH battery would use the 55 amp red stamped alternator and corresponding C5TF yellow stamped regulator.
i saw that this one is considered as a real battery and referred as a true 65, if it's not then how come?
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i saw that this one is considered as a real battery and referred as a true 65, if it's not then how come?
That's a group 22 battery, it normally would have yellow caps. The red lettering was probably added or may have been a detail unique only to a service replacement battery. Below is a pic of an assembly line 22F.
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I've been reading from this website for maybe four years and learned a lot. Probably already forgot some things. I'm as green as the battery caps you are talking about BUT thought it was time to add. I have a connection with a Nascar team and they have FOUR 3D printers and I've already confirmed from my connection, he knows how to work them and can use them. They are backed up. They make parts all the time. He did request a model. Would 24F one from Virginia Classic Mustang do? Just trying to help our situation.
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I've been reading from this website for maybe four years and learned a lot. Probably already forgot some things. I'm as green as the battery caps you are talking about BUT thought it was time to add. I have a connection with a Nascar team and they have FOUR 3D printers and I've already confirmed from my connection, he knows how to work them and can use them. They are backed up. They make parts all the time. He did request a model. Would 24F one from Virginia Classic Mustang do? Just trying to help our situation.
The cost to 3D print an entire battery would be too much to make it feasible. Most 3D printing will leave lines in the surface, which would require additional effort to smooth out and it still would not look right. Maybe there are some high end 3D printers that can print smooth?
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I found this battery to fit inside the case with plenty of room for the cables. Specs look good for cranking up an engine too.
The case (bought from Va. Classic a few months ago) has terminals to bolt any connections onto as well.
Now, just to figure out how I wish to mimic the proper top details, closest simulation I have found so far is a yellow lettering label that comes on a Battery topper (fits into the location where the reproduction case has a raised surface for the 68-up style warranty decal).
By the way, NPD NOW CARRIES THE EMPTY SHELL CASES!
"Braille Battery B2618: Advanced AGM Lightweight Racing Battery 18.5 lbs - JEGS High Performance" https://www.jegs.com/i/Braille+Auto/147/B2618/10002/-1?gclid=CjwKCAjw4ayUBhA4EiwATWyBrpcjuaLjjjjWZcMiR6zlDg7llVS7j-N0Ogfc3hZe9PvVnIArnzJMPRoCg9EQAvD_BwE
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what time frame battery are you looking to replicate?
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what time frame battery are you looking to replicate?
67
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what time frame battery are you looking to replicate?
FYI 65-67 group 22 batteries look the same . It is the 68 and up that look different.
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FYI 65-67 group 22 batteries look the same . It is the 68 and up that look different.
I realized just now that I had commented in a Group 22F thread. I am trying to build a 67-older Group 24F, red cap battery. The recent post of 3D printing of the raised yellow letters (on a 24F empty case) within this particular thread, is what pulled me here to comment on the Race Car battery I purchased.
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I realized just now that I had commented in a Group 22F thread. I am trying to build a 67-older Group 24F, red cap battery. The recent post of 3D printing of the raised yellow letters (on a 24F empty case) within this particular thread, is what pulled me here to comment on the Race Car battery I purchased.
You probably got a few people excited that a 22 was available. 65-67 group 24 look the same case wise. 68-up look different. Good info for others on the race car battery.
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Does anyone have a photo of an early (64-66) Group 24 (not 22) Autolite battery...particularly the top. I'd like to compare it to the repos available. I've search the library...but don't see that specific picture (unless I missed it).
Thank you.
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The top of the assembly line 65-66-67 battery has the same appearance on group 22 or 24. Group 22 is basically just smaller than a 24, the size of the warning lettering is still the same though. Attached is a pic of an original car with a 24 and a pic of a 22.
There is no reproduction of either of these.
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Thank you, as usual, Charles.
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Lots of pictures if you did a searxh.
Going to move this over the the main Grp 22 Battery thread
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I did look...and, yes, many pictures...but nobody "confirming" exactly what a correct early Group 24 looked like. In any event, I see the early Autolite (22) has a marking on the top (looks like numbers). How is it interpreted? I assume, based on the thread, that if there were a date code, it would be on the bottom. Thx..
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I did look...and, yes, many pictures...but nobody "confirming" exactly what a correct early Group 24 looked like.
Now that we've got that in the thread it will help others
In any event, I see the early Autolite (22) has a marking on the top (looks like numbers). How is it interpreted? I assume, based on the thread, that if there were a date code, it would be on the bottom. Thx..
Depending on when the batter was made you can find examples of them, so far cast into the bottom of the case or stamped on the post. Both dates I've found are shown in the pictures below
Now the case date may just be when it was cast and the upper post when the battery was assembled but I do have other examples from other period where the post is shaped differently and does not have the provision for the date in that location. By that time it also appears that the plants and possibly the dealers, when a new patter was sold to retain the warranty, the top of the case was etched or heat stamped for that purpose. That is a practice we see carried on into the 1970 or so. Out side of the focus of this thread and your particular focus.
I read the date as April 66
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-120722204644-17573831.jpeg)
And Oct 66 for this one
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-120722204644-175731367.jpeg)
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Since we're visited this thread again thought I would post a handful of pictures of some additional details and findings.
As been discussed above the question about dating the battery thought I would stay with that and a detail about the posts found on 66-67 Autolite battiers I have pictures of. Some of these pictures have been posted on forums, sent to me or ones I've taken
So far we've seen a date on the bottom that possibly identifies when the base of the case was cast/made.
Then we have another date visible from above that may identify when the battery was assembled - on the negative post base or it may be related to the starting date for the warranty. On batteries from 67 I've got a couple of cases where there is a heat stamp on the top which I do believe is warranty related
In addition to the two pictures above that show dates and post design being used in spring of 66 I offer the following.
Two other post designs in addition to the one above. One with a raised section of the case, a ring and another that is scalloped. The scalloped version has a June 67 date it appears. Don't know what the information or coding is on the end of the negative post.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-120722235348-17576858.jpeg)
What I believe is a 1967 date example with casting date and the top heat stamp date and additional coding
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-120722235348-17576184.jpeg)
Another example of the same heat stamped top surface. Same location. This pictures is one from Bob G but can't make out for certain the second digit of the year 6?
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-130722000640-17580525.jpeg)
Hope this helps the discussion, understanding and others
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A point of clarity, It is my understanding that 66 or 67 22F and 24F batteries DID NOT originally have red embossed letters on them.
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A point of clarity, It is my understanding that 66 or 67 22F and 24F batteries DID NOT originally have red embossed letters on them.
The 65,66,and 67 assemblyline versions typically did not have the red embossed letters from evidence. The service replacements of the same years which looked different seemed to typically have the letters in red.
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Since we're visited this thread again thought I would post a handful of pictures of some additional details and findings.
As been discussed above the question about dating the battery thought I would stay with that and a detail about the posts found on 66-67 Autolite battiers I have pictures of. Some of these pictures have been posted on forums, sent to me or ones I've taken
So far we've seen a date on the bottom that possibly identifies when the base of the case was cast/made.
Then we have another date visible from above that may identify when the battery was assembled - on the negative post base or it may be related to the starting date for the warranty. On batteries from 67 I've got a couple of cases where there is a heat stamp on the top which I do believe is warranty related
In addition to the two pictures above that show dates and post design being used in spring of 66 I offer the following.
Two other post designs in addition to the one above. One with a raised section of the case, a ring and another that is scalloped. The scalloped version has a June 67 date it appears. Don't know what the information or coding is on the end of the negative post.
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-120722235348-17576858.jpeg)
What I believe is a 1967 date example with casting date and the top heat stamp date and additional coding
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-120722235348-17576184.jpeg)
Another example of the same heat stamped top surface. Same location. This pictures is one from Bob G but can't make out for certain the second digit of the year 6?
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-130722000640-17580525.jpeg)
Hope this helps the discussion, understanding and others
The heat stamped date of the completed battery assembly was the most typical way that I have seen of the early as well as later batteries.
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A point of clarity, It is my understanding that 66 or 67 22F and 24F batteries DID NOT originally have red embossed letters on them.
After all these years telling which are assembly line and which are period NOS can be difficult especially since, for many part, parts made by the supplier provided parts to the car assembly plants and to the parts supply side of Ford - the dealerships. Not saying that the plan was not to have a difference between two batteries built the same day. Guess we have to at this point (agreeing with Bob) report that service parts when found have had the red letters but personally not sure that I would deduct for red letters on a battery in a show car at a show since IMHO the possibility is there. If your concerned about showing then there is just one option. Others will be different :)
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The pictures of batteries that Jeff shows are assemblyline type batteries with the yellow lettering between the terminal posts. The service replacement batteries typically do not have that same yellow lettering in between the posts instead they have warning stickers punch out for dates that document put into service date for warranty purposes. I too have a hard time docking for painted letters when viewing a real assemblyline battery however the overwhelming majority of the time the issue is the 68 and later style repro battery being used so the letters painted or not are the least of the problem.
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The pictures of batteries that Jeff shows are assemblyline type batteries with the yellow lettering between the terminal posts. The service replacement batteries typically do not have that same yellow lettering in between the posts instead they have warning stickers punch out for dates that document put into service date for warranty purposes. I too have a hard time docking for painted letters when viewing a real assemblyline battery however the overwhelming majority of the time the issue is the 68 and later style repro battery being used so the letters painted or not are the least of the problem.
Bob I've seen - need to get some pictures - of very early service replacements that have the lettering that were boxed in 66 and 67 before they changed and added the warranty tag/label. Pre 68 ones. These have been near impossible to find over the years since stock was used up quickly - First in first out.
Friend has one in the Autolite box and that one is the only one I've seen in person. Empty and never had acid in it
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JEFF
please check your email as i have sent you some images of said battery in my posession and that im happy for you to use/share on this forum.
regards
PHILL BERESFORD
MELBOURNE.
AUSTRALIA.
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I found this battery to fit inside the case with plenty of room for the cables. Specs look good for cranking up an engine too.
The case (bought from Va. Classic a few months ago) has terminals to bolt any connections onto as well.
Now, just to figure out how I wish to mimic the proper top details, closest simulation I have found so far is a yellow lettering label that comes on a Battery topper (fits into the location where the reproduction case has a raised surface for the 68-up style warranty decal).
By the way, NPD NOW CARRIES THE EMPTY SHELL CASES!
"Braille Battery B2618: Advanced AGM Lightweight Racing Battery 18.5 lbs - JEGS High Performance" https://www.jegs.com/i/Braille+Auto/147/B2618/10002/-1?gclid=CjwKCAjw4ayUBhA4EiwATWyBrpcjuaLjjjjWZcMiR6zlDg7llVS7j-N0Ogfc3hZe9PvVnIArnzJMPRoCg9EQAvD_BwE
how do you charge the battery? Is it connect to the altenator? My gel battery was melted after a drive of 1,5 hour
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how do you charge the battery? Is it connect to the altenator? My gel battery was melted after a drive of 1,5 hour
I would verify that your regulator is working properly given your overcharged problem.
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I have had some issues with three reproduction regulators. My first try out of 4 new ones that I have now was a D2 old Ford service part that UNDER-charged at about 11 volts. Strike one. My next try was a new ELECTRONIC one from NPD and it was over 18 volts! The next replacement one is still running hot at 15.5 volts. I also have one from Mansfield Mustang and it isn't any good either.
I the put back my pre-restoration +30-year-old Standard brand one on and 14.8 volts is what I read so you can see a wide variety of voltage outputs. It can be frustrating but use a digital volt meter to settle in on one that gets you in the 14.5 range.
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who has placed a gel battery in the battery case and drives long distances with it?
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who has placed a gel battery in the battery case and drives long distances with it?
If by long distance, 1/2-hour long drives, yes. The BRAILLE battery I use and previously provided a link to states:
"Details
Advanced AGM Lightweight Racing Battery
Braille Batteries are used by racers all over the world in the NASCAR, FIA WRC, FIA Formula Racing, Speed World Challenge Series, SCCA ProRally Series, SCCA Regional and National Racing, NASA Touring Cars, NIRA, NOPI and Battle of the Imports Drag Racing Series. Braille Batteries are also designed for deep-cycle use in premium vehicles with enhanced reliability and performance.
Seeing a need for a Braille Battery that had extended reserve time and amp hour capacity, Braille changed the internal grid structure to suit customers looking for the highest amp hour to weight ratio for an AGM battery. The Spec 147-B3121 is perfect for daily street use, even in colder climates. Braille developed the 147-B3121 to excel at competition use and in situations where the battery is relied on to perform at a higher level than other batteries. This includes extreme audio systems and insane motors."
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Given "The Spec 147-B3121 is perfect for daily street use, even in colder climates." If a battery was melted after a drive of 1.5 hour the overcharge needed to cause the battery failure would most likely be from a possible regulator problem .
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Oops. Clicked wrong "quote" button, unable to delete reply
I tried to delete a post and noticed the delete button gone. If this post is still here it means that is a new change to the site.