ConcoursMustang Forums
Non-Mustang Ford & Mercury Models => Cougar 1967-73 => Topic started by: pellets4fuel on March 17, 2018, 12:02:01 PM
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Would appreciate anyone pointing me to posts about the issue of the clutch pedal and brake pedal being at an offset to each other. From the searching I have done, and pictures I have seen there appears there is going to be some. Also in working under my dash last night installing new plastic u-shaped "cushions" and a new pedal return spring I can see that there wouldn't be a way for them to be even. With the clutch pedal against it's rubber stop, and if the brake pedal came all the way back to it's stop (the clutch pedal shaft) there is no way they would come into being even. A new rubber stop on the clutch pedal might be a little thicker than my old one, but I am guessing not much.
I looked all through the big blue book with Falcon, Fairlane, Mustang, Cougar etc. It shows just two different style pedals. There is the shorter version for non power brake cars, and that pedal pivots on a shaft on the clutch bushings. And then there is the power brake version that requires less leverage and that pedal pivots on a bolt and bushing higher up. I have both style of pedals here, but am using the power brake version.
Right now my brake pedal hooked up to the booster shaft doesn't come back to it's stop position. I did do a brake swap from front drum to disc, using the parts either from a 68, or other ford product line, I honestly don't recall what car they came from. Just know they are the single piston type. I have a rebuilt Midland booster on it, with the right style push rod with the hole being offset to the shaft centerline, so when things hook up the shaft is going straight into the booster.
Also on a side note, I have removed the old turn signal unit in the trunk and upgraded it to the electronic box. When I apply pedal I get brake lights, but they cycle off after a second or two. I have one burnt out brake light bulb. Is it possible that all bulbs need to be good for it to work right, or should I be looking at a new brake light switch?
Thanks!
David
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Guess that by using the term "not in line" your referring to the face of each being unequal. One looking like its depressed more than the other as they hang under the dash.
How much of a differences is there?
A difference is not unusual to see on a completely stock car and you have mixed and match parts from who knows where according to your post. These may or may not have an affect on the finished height but lets see how far off the two pedals are from one another as a starting point
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It looks like your Post under 67-68 Mustang was eliminated, but since you mentioned that you Posted it here too, I found it.
You mentioned that the Power Disk Brake Parts you used for the conversion were from a '68 ; does that include the Pedal ? If so, that may be your problem. Each year Mustang, 1967-71 had its own unique Pedal. At no time were any of the separate year Part Numbers "Replaced By" or "Mixed With" another year. Each year was "its own". While some different years can be used, and will work with other years, there will be minor differences. Possibly the "front to back" offset that you are experiencing is one of these "minor differences".
Bob
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Jeff,
I apologize first for posting in the 67 Mustang section, and thanks for taking the time to reply here. They are off by appr 3 inches If I measure off the floor boards (which it's hard to get an accurate measurement with pedal angle and such) the brake pedal is about 4.5 inches off, and the clutch pedal about 7.25 inches. I know this only comes up to 2.75, but again it is a hard measurement to define. But gives you a good idea of how much.
Bob,
I am guessing a 68 pedal. I just went through my records, and found the original e-bay add when I purchased the car, and it mentions having disc brakes on it then, so I guess I didn't get the parts, but still not original brakes as they are not the original 4 piston type a 67 would have used. I don't have a Marti report, so who knows what brakes it came with. The fact that I have an extra manual pedal for a 4-speed car may be a clue that the car came with manual drum brakes up front, but it's anybody's guess :(
So it sounds like what will make it most correct would be to find a pedal from a 67 car with power brakes. I think I read somewhere that a auto trans power brake pedal will work, it just needs to be cut down to look like a pedal from a manual car?
Thanks for your time!
David
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Here are pics from the January 67 and 60-68 MPC, as well as the 67 shop manual
Things that caught my eye:
1. Both the 67 and 68 MPC references collapsable steering columns, which did not appear until 1968.
2. The 67 lists two clutch pedals, with the 390 being unique. The 68 lists only one for all cases.
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Bob,
So it sounds like what will make it most correct would be to find a pedal from a 67 car with power brakes. I think I read somewhere that a auto trans power brake pedal will work, it just needs to be cut down to look like a pedal from a manual car?
Thanks for your time!
David
David : Yes, most correct would definitely be a 1967 Power Brake Pedal. And yes, I have read that also, that a power brake pedal from an AT has the same pedal arm, and all that you would need to do is trim the plate down where the pedal pad goes, to the same size as that for MT. Now whether this will solve your "offset issue", remains to be seen.
Keep us posted.
Bob
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I have an auto power brake pedal and related hardware needed to install it.
You may notice it mounts in a different hole than the clutch pedal does. The hole is already in your pedal bracket. It bolts on with bushings, a sleeve and nut and bolt. See the exploded view shown earlier.
PM me back if interested.
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John,
Great charts you posted! Thanks. I will have to do some checking, and see if I can find part numbers anywhere in order to determine what pedals I have. Is there a typical spot they stamped them? The last chart with the measurements looks like it would/could be quite helpful in identifying as well.
Richard,
I would be interested in the pedal you have, but first I want to make sure it will be the problem solver. If the clutch pedal I have could possibly be from a small block or inline 6 application then just changing the brake pedal may not solve my problem I am guessing.
I'm tempted to just get my ox/act torch out, and heat the brake pedal arm and give it a bend ;) Probably weaken the steel though. I am guessing it is tempered. Also not the right way to do it, so I am kinda kidding :)
Thanks Everyone!
David
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In my experience brake pedal arm are one of the items that could have, should have, been stamped with the part number but, alas, were not. Makes it very difficult to know what you have and what you are buying without a known reference part.
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In my experience brake pedal arm are one of the items that could have, should have, been stamped with the part number but, alas, were not. Makes it very difficult to know what you have and what you are buying without a known reference part.
I have two original automatic power brake pedals.
One is off of my November built 67 Mustang and the other is out of the kit that I have for converting a 67 Mustang to power drum brakes. Both of the ones I have, attached to the upper most hole as seen in the diagrams posted earlier. Anything manual brakes, regardless of the engine or transmission, all attached through the pin located further down on the bracket. Automatic transmissions use a pin with a clip to attach the pedal, and manual transmission applications use the clutch pedal, which has the pin made right directly on it as part of the assembly.
A person has to look closely at the reference lines to see exactly what I am saying here.
My guess is the original poster has a manual brake pedal, that it attaches using the pin from the clutch pedal. If that is the case, obviously he needs to change up to the power type brake pedal, converting an automatic pedal is obviously easier to locate than a manual trans pedal. This is exactly how I converted a different 67 Mustang years ago to manual transmission. I cut down the automatic pedal to accomplish having the power brakes since the donor vehicle I used was incorrect.
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Richard,
I have both examples of pedals here for a manual brake setup, and power. I currently have the power brake one installed which mounts on it's own bolt with bushings higher up on the pedal support bracket like you state, and picture shows. I measured my brake pedal height like the Fig 1 picture shows. I have appr 4.75" off the toeboard area. Then from face of brake pedal to face of clutch pedal is about 2.75in (give or take) Maybe this is the way it is suppose to be?
I looked for any "casting" numbers on the manual pedal for reference. I didn't find any. Just a single number 8 stamped in it. I have not crawled under the dash with a light yet to check if I can find any numbers on the other pedals.
David
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There are stamped dates on the foot part of those disc brake pedals 1968-73. Not sure about 1967.
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In the 67-68 series there are two basic pedal support assemblies.
One is for manual brake, alone or with clutch, and the other is for power brake (PB), alone or with clutch.
It should be note that there are minor differences between assemblies created for service and those found in early and later assembly line supports which won't be addressed here.
Regardless if assembly line or service the manual brake version of the support has 4 captives at the firewall side while the PB version has only one at the top left corner.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/4249-190318162243.jpeg)
This is a 68 manual brake and clutch pedal assembly. The 67 version is almost identical.
Two captives are shown with red arrows.
The PB pivot is shown with a red circle
The green arrow points to the clutch and manual brake pivot pin. Both the brake and clutch pivot here. In this case the pin is built into the clutch pedal (see later pic). If the car is an automatic and has manual brakes the pivot pin is a separate pin (much like a bolt).
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/4249-190318163508.jpeg)
Here I bolted a PB pedal to the outside of the pedal support just to show how different the PB pedal is and how this changes the pedal ratio.
When converting to PB you remove the manual pedal and insert this pedal into the housing.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/4249-190318190720.jpeg)
Here is the original, I believe, pedal on my small block 67 SJ clutch and PB car.
[on edit] My apologies for the mixup. In the last few decades a few parts bins got mixed up, so my 65-66 pedals got mixed with 67-68.
The pedal above is for a 65-66 and shares most dimensions with the 67, except for the added side bracket.
The pedal includes the pivot pin for itself and the manual brakes (if so fitted). The pedal is often replaced after the plastic bushing degrades and eats through not only the pin, but saws through the pedal box assembly.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/4249-190318190307.jpeg)
This, I believe, is the standard 67 pedal. I think it's based on the 65-66 pedal design and still has the original early hole and a new bracket welded to the outside of the pedal with another hole for use on 67s.
The area where the arm contacts the bump pad is also different as the 67 has a large bent over area, whereas the 66 looks cut off by comparison.
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Bossbill,
Hey thanks for the post. Great that you posted all the photos you did! Unfortunate that I can only see the first one. The others are just blank.
Scott,
If there is indeed a couple different clutch pedals depending on if you have a BB or SB motor like has been stated, why does WCCC only list one application on their web page?
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Scott,
If there is indeed a couple different clutch pedals depending on if you have a BB or SB motor like has been stated, why does WCCC only list one application on their web page?
We have never scrapped out a S code with manual transmission. A few 3 speed 289 cars though.
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Bossbill,
Hey thanks for the post. Great that you posted all the photos you did! Unfortunate that I can only see the first one. The others are just blank.
Scott,
If there is indeed a couple different clutch pedals depending on if you have a BB or SB motor like has been stated, why does WCCC only list one application on their web page?
The site controls pictures and their properties. Not sure why only you have issues. Try again after you read this post.
I'm unsure if the added bracket is BB. I checked another picture from an earlier edition of the MPC and it shows the added bracket for all cars, not just BB.
Although there appears to be two clutch pedals in 67 I'm unsure of what to make of mine. The pedal support is very early. Without codes on the pedal it's unknown if it's built at the same time as the support.
Regardless, the other pictures show how the conversion works with "real hardware."
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Below is a response I got after contacting Mustang Steve. Clears up the offset question. I could have more, for the variety of reasons he has listed. One thing that will change my spacing by a little would be to replace the rubber stop on the clutch pedal support. Mine is "pounded" down to only about 1/8in thick. I looked at pictures of new ones, and they appear to be more like 1/4 to 3/8 thick. I replaced all my bushings in things, and my pins were not really wore much like from metal on metal, other than the rod to hole connection on the clutch pedal to equalizer bar. I still have a little play in there even with new bushings, and there is visible wear. At some point I will need to address that by either renewing the hole in clutch pedal, and buying a replacement rod or getting all new. Clutch pedals are not cheap though.
He also sent me some photos of a stock 67 in a GT500 and a 69 stang clearly showing the offset in both.
"David,
The offset on 67-70 power brake cars was original. See attached pic of 67 GT500 and 69 Mustang pedals. Usually the clutch pedal is about 1” to 1-1/2” higher than the brake pedal. This can vary a bit, usually caused by worn bushings in the clutch pedal shaft. BBK kit will make it fit as original. ( https://www.mustangsteve.com/product/bbk/ )
There were two different clutch pedals in 67-69, but both sit at the same height. One of the pedals has an offset bracket to move the actuation rod to the side a bit.
Michael,
MustangSteve"
Thanks for everyone's help on this. Great site with very helpful members!
David
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I saw this C7ZZ-7519-A pedal listing on eBay, looks like the 2nd photo Bill shared (with the extra bracket).
Many pictures if somebody wishes to cut and paste them into this post (or add to their file photos)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-67-1967-SHELBY-MUSTANG-4-SPEED-CLUTCH-PEDAL-GT-K-CODE-428-PI-390-289/162958443993?epid=1066747241&hash=item25f11485d9:g:IccAAOSwFe5XwwEy&vxp=mtr
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Please note that I have modified my original post after noticing I confused a 65-66 pedal with my 67 stash. It didn't help that the 68 pedal assembly I purchased over 20 years ago was assembled with the wrong clutch pedal.
This doesn't affect the OPs question but I did lead you astray on the clutch pedal parts.