Topic: 67 K/H calipers

[Brian in PA]

First off the calipers have been off and restored. FYI someone didn't know any better and left the early style pad retainer unpainted which calls into question what other things that they did not know any better about. . The fact that the bolt holding the caliper on is the later safety wire type (the one with no safety wire in the holes ) proofs it has been tampered with.  Like the 65 and 66 the early 67 calipers didn't use a safety wire bolt. A later car did have the larger brake flex lines ,later style pad clips and safety wired in bolts. Most likely those calipers have been changed. There is no extra ordinary proof to justify the extra ordinary claim that the early style calipers were used on that late of car. There is however all kinds of evidence to suggest that they have been messed with and not in any kind of original type matrix to support a un tampered with conclusion.

Thanks for the clarification Bob.  You are correct they have been restored.  The pad retainer had black paint on it before I sandblasted them I kinda like the silver cad better though   
This is how the car was when I purchased it.  It had some work done at on one time, so they may have been changed.  The car also had the safety wire bolts holding the caliper on too.  Sorry to post a bad example up here.

[Bob Gaines]

Thanks for the clarification Bob.  You are correct they have been restored.  The pad retainer had black paint on it before I sandblasted them I kinda like the silver cad better though   
This is how the car was when I purchased it.  It had some work done at on one time, so they may have been changed.  The car also had the safety wire bolts holding the caliper on too.  Sorry to post a bad example up here.

Keep in mind that the later 67 calipers were the last evolution of that style 4 piston KH caliper on a Mustang. It is more superior when compared to the earlier versions in its details . The smaller pad retainer clips have the advantage of allowing more air movement for cooling. The larger flex line orifice allows for more flow to pistons. The safety wire bolts add security to the assembly. I am not sure but I think there may have been a evolution to the piston seal inside too.   

[67gta289]

Bob,

I think that the piston o-ring (actually square cut ring) is the same.  But the dust boot design changed, from an external to internal groove for 67.  This eliminated two metal rings per caliper (see pic).  A change that eliminates parts is good for quality and cost, the change to performance (dust intrusion rejection) may or may not have been an impetus or by product of the actual change.  John

[BKnapp]

I did a bit more homework, in the attached file.  Comments welcome! John

I have read the post and need some input on my understanding. I went to bleed my brakes and the bleeders are frozen solid. As I am waiting for the penetrant to work, I am assessing some options. When parts need to be replaced, I would prefer to go concours correct although I don't know if this will ever be a concours car. So, could these calipers "possibly" be correct?

If so, I will keep trying to loosen the bleeder and rebuild. If not, I may try to locate something more likely to be correct, which I believe to be the K/H referenced within this thread.


Any help is certainly appreciated.

[67350#1242]

One thing being overlooked here is the date code stamped into the assemblyline brake hoses, which might help pinpoint when the larger hose went into production.   I know I've seen dates on these as early as Sept (9) or Oct  (10)  66.  My feeling is that SOME cars got the later style brakes late in 1966.    The hose in this picture looks to be dated 12  09   6.    (The Sept-Oct time frame also coincides with the MPC change on 10/17/66)
Kurt.

[BKnapp]

I haven't taken them apart yet, as I just picked up the car and the brakes are my first  "project". Based on John's assesment in the above attachment, I assume they are 3/8...they are 7/16". I couldn't read anything on the hose, other than 97, so I am confident the hoses aren't original. This car was "redone" around that time by the PO, and I am fairly certain originality was not a concerned...I am still trying to figure out what was rebuilt versus replaced with repop.

Am I understanding that 71312 was used on the assembly line at some point? It sounded like the ones John was comparing above were all believed to be original

[67350#1242]

"Am I understanding that 71312 was used on the assembly line at some point? It sounded like the ones John was comparing above were all believed to be original"

The calipers with casting 71312 and 71315 on the 2 halves are assembly line.  They are the latest version of the K/H 4 piston design.  It is just not certain at what point these began to be used.

[J_Speegle]

One thing being overlooked here is the date code stamped into the assemblyline brake hoses, which might help pinpoint when the larger hose went into production.   I know I've seen dates on these as early as Sept (9) or Oct  (10)  66.  My feeling is that SOME cars got the later style brakes late in 1966.   ..............

.........................  It is just not certain at what point these began to be used.

Kurt first thanks for the pictures and some dates from the brake lines themselves

Earlier in the thread we discussed the possible change over point or range at least for San Jose and I offered the example with the projected Dec 15th date which I feel pretty comfortable based on other cars around the same time using the early style up to that point. Now looking at what I have I worked from the late version towards that December date yesterday and found the following

The earliest production dates (real dates this time) I found for San Jose was December 21st. I must report that I would not normally offer any of these examples individually  since each has been "restored" or played with in the past, but the fact that I could, after all these years, find a group with all the same style calipers. The random chance that some prior owner made each made the same choice for replacements, if they all were even replaced, seems to be unlikely  so I'm taking the calipers at face value and giving the finding some value in our discussion. 

Inviting opinions on this observation and conclusion at this point.

Though this does not help the date at the other two plants it may suggest that it was at a similar time period and may guide us to at least start in December lookign at those examples

[67gta289]

Switching the focus to the spring clip/retainer for the brake pads, which style is correct for the early K/H style calipers, the one piece type from the first picture, or the two piece style from picture 2?

Do original early K/H style have any telltale features (part number, date code stamps or other)?

Looks like I have over 20 of the later style, none of the one piece style...

What would be the finish for the clips and the bolts?

Thanks, John

[J_Speegle]

Switching the focus to the spring clip/retainer for the brake pads, which style is correct for the early K/H style calipers, the one piece type from the first picture, or the two piece style from picture 2?

One piece like the earlier 65-66

Do original early K/H style have any telltale features (part number, date code stamps or other)?

Not Ford engineering numbers since they were not provide nor made by Ford

Would expect them to be date stamps since that appears to be the practice on others. Shape and fitting size seems to be the quickest and easiest telltale signs

What would be the finish for the clips and the bolts?

The one piece/full retainers I've seen have always showed signs of black paint - on the glossier side of semi-gloss. Possibly dipped rather than sprayed

[Paperback Writer]

As Bob pointed out, in response to Kevin's pictures posted above (which have the same casting numbers as mine), he has the C7 larger hose. Alternatively, is it possible that Kevin's supply line is a repop and the line stamps inaccurately describe the part? I am thoroughly confused and not sure where to start my hunt since I am not exactly sure what I should be looking for. Possibly I am missing something in this thread?


Kevin, would you be willing/able to verify the inlet size on your caliper?


Any additional input, opinions and information would be great!

I'll have to dig them out of storage, but I'll try to get the measurements to you in the next few days.

However, I'm still a little confused as well...

My car was built in San Jose on Sept. 22, 1966 - so I'd say that makes it an "early production" 1967 Mustang.  I've owned the car since January 1983, and have service records going back to May 1978 - and there's nothing in the service history to indicate that the calipers were ever replaced prior to me buying the car, so I assumed that the 71312/71315 calipers on my car were the original items that were installed at the factory (there was even a big green paint daub on the driver's side caliper).

However, in response to the photos I posted of my calipers back on March 22, 2015, Bob Gaines indicated that my car had the "later style" calipers, which I interpreted to mean that 1) these weren't the same type of calipers that were being discussed, and 2) my early production car didn't come with them originally (but I still think it did)...

Yes, it's possible that the calipers were replaced at some point prior to May 1978, but could it also be possible that the San Jose plant was using the "later style" calipers as early as mid-Sept. 1966?

Is there anything I should be looking for on the calipers, hoses, etc. that can verify these as original or not?

[CharlesTurner]

The earlier 65-66 calipers had date stamps, see if yours have any.

[67350#1242]

Look for a date stamp on the large half of the caliper on the face "opposite" of the clip.  Ones I've seen have a part number and a Julian style of date and a dash 6.    Like part ########   327-6.   Think the 6 is year (327th day of 1966).  These appear hand stamped not cast.
These stamps are very hard to read and best if part thoroughly cleaned/bead blasted - rubbing with some sort of dye may help.
Don't have any off car or I'd post a picture with location of dates I've found.
Of course dates on original hoses may also give you a clue but these more likely to have been changed.
Kurt.

[Paperback Writer]

Okay, here's what I found over the weekend...

- The supply lines to my calipers were 7/16 (photo 1)
- The part number on both brake lines is C70A-2078-D (photo 2)
- The same date code is on both brake lines: 12 09 6 (also photo 2 - is this 12 Sep 1966 or Dec 9, 1966?)
- The DS retainer clip bolt heads show a "B & ?" logo set inside a series of concentric circles (photo 3)
- The PS retainer clip bolt heads show three raised dots (photo 4)
- The DS Caliper codes seem to say: 331 H (inverted) and H 89 (photo 5)
- The PS Caliper codes seem to say: 41-KH9 (inverted) and 538-1 (photo 6)

[BKnapp]

Kurt - Thanks for the insight on the date stampings. If this is accurate, the mid Dec stamping below would likely be consistent with my build date.

John (67gta289) has done a great job of cleaning up my caliper and has taken a couple of pictures. The clarity of the casting number is less than ideal as seen in the pictures. Although John has noted it as 77315, could it possibly be 71315? This would be more consistent with some of the prior posts. The inlets are 7/16-24.

I am not sure if this helps provide any new information and I cannot verify that these are the calipers that originally came on the car. I AM certain that the flex brake lines have been replaced.