Topic: Monuments and Mustangs 2011 MCA Grand National

[Bill73Ragtop]

I was quite surprised to learn when the judges came by for Modified Trailered that it was only Abbreviated judging.  I understand there were a tremendous amount of cars to judge in an afternoon (and possibly Sun morning), but it would have been helpful to know in advance since part of the experience was to have the car looked at in a complete manner.   I'll see what the sheet notes are when I get it, but Abbreviated Judging in my experience is Cleanliness, Quality of Workmanship and Overall Condition only.

Overall though, it was impressive to see so many cars at an event like that.

[C5ZZKGT]

MY '65 K GT Convertible EARNED, I repete EARNED a GOLD award at the River City National in Jacksonville in May only loosing 14 points, I personally corrected about 10 of these, and did nothing else to my car since May execpt keep in clean and detailed, and went home from Waldorf with a SILVER! Can't wait to get my judging sheet to see whats up with that!

[Ivygreen65]

MY '65 K GT Convertible EARNED, I repete EARNED a GOLD award at the River City National in Jacksonville

Are you inferring that others didn't earn the awards that were given to them?  I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say with all the caps and the innuendo.

[carlite65]

i confess. i judged the car at waldorf. i do not know who the judges were at jacksonville. i put my phone # on the judging sheet and would be glad to discuss it with you. i can only speak for my judging team.

[outlawincorporated]

i was also part of the judging team that was responsible for your car.  im also happy to discuss the issues that i observed at the grand national as well, i think we discussed the most obvious ones with you once we finished your sheets.
easier for you to email me at: outlaw@hn.ozemail.com.au

Based in Australia so i dont think you want the cost of calling me here.

regards.

PHILL BERESFORD.
MELBOURNE.
AUSTRALIA

[bryancobb]

Sorry to highjack!
Phill,  Did you bring the radio and Alt harness?
Bryan

[C5ZZKGT]

Are you inferring that others didn't earn the awards that were given to them?  I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say with all the caps and the innuendo.

Not at all. I weas just stating thatmy car "earned" a gold award at Jacksonville, I don't prefer to say that I (personally) "won" a gold, rather that my car EARNED it, by the work that was done with the restoration, and by my upkeep and improvements since then.

[C5ZZKGT]

i was also part of the judging team that was responsible for your car.  im also happy to discuss the issues that i observed at the grand national as well, i think we discussed the most obvious ones with you once we finished your sheets.
easier for you to email me at: outlaw@hn.ozemail.com.au

Based in Australia so i dont think you want the cost of calling me here.

regards.

PHILL BERESFORD.
MELBOURNE.
AUSTRALIA

Guys, I really don't want to get into a pissing contest here, but the only things you guys told me about verbally at the show during the judging was the lack of a small amount of strip caulk that was not present on a hole for a rear bumper guard bolt (because my car is a GT and can't have bumper guards due to the exhaust holes) and then about some minor oil leaks.
There was absolutely nothing else spoken about, I even asked you if you'd like to see my newly added seat belt labels that were added since I lost 1 point for at Jacksonville for not having, and Phill, your reply was "you don't need them-you are in Concours" I also asked if you guys wanted to see inside the glove box, because I was so proud of my newly replaced door, and the Red Band tire sticker in the proper place.....I know at Jacksonville that one of the judges helpped himself to open the glove box door and found a very nasty finish on the inside of the door itself and the tire sticker in the wrong place.....
Not that I could have or would have been able to do anything about what you guys were deducting points for at the show......
I truely was under the impression that my car (me NOT being stuck up or anything) would also EARN a Gold award at the Grand National show being is how, like I stated above personally "corrected" at least 8-10 of these lost points, and did nothing else since Jacksonville but keep my car clean and detailed.
I am still really green with the MCA judging and certainly don't know all there is to know, I don't understand why a car's VIN and owners name are not on the judging sheets.....seems to me that this would be a much better way to document a car's status down the road, or in case someone wanted to sell their car, which BTW I am most certainly NOT planning in the future at all.
BTW: Why must these judging sheets go to MCA headquarters before an owner can get them? seems silly as basicly everyone that needs to look over what the judges did are present at the show, and even if they were not-what can they do to recheck judging results after the fact w/o the car present?

[C5ZZKGT]

i confess. i judged the car at waldorf. i do not know who the judges were at jacksonville. i put my phone # on the judging sheet and would be glad to discuss it with you. i can only speak for my judging team.

Fred, No confession needed, it was GREAT finally meeting you, and again, I appreciate your time in judging my car however the outcome.
You, Phill, and your helper whos name I have forgotten know way more than I do right now as to what you deducted points for, so until I get my sheets back I can't speak intellegently about anything that is on them...

[Bob Gaines]

Not at all. I weas just stating thatmy car "earned" a gold award at Jacksonville, I don't prefer to say that I (personally) "won" a gold, rather that my car EARNED it, by the work that was done with the restoration, and by my upkeep and improvements since then.

Reading your comments I get the impression that you are unaware or maybe have forgotten that just because the judges at another show found 12 items and you fixed 10 doesn't mean that a another set of eyes in Waldorf couldn't find 10 or 15 more items that need attention. This is relatively common.  It is also common that things get missed or that when a number of things get fixed other differences  stand out more prominently. The judging staff strives for consistency (our mantra) and in a perfect world everything that was wrong would be caught the first time around. Perfection is a little unreasonable to expect so we work towards doing the best we can. It sounds like to me that the concours judges that judged your car are ready ,willing and able to answer your questions if that is what you want. As always you should request the judging sheets since it would be unreasonable to expect the judging team to remember many deductions for one car made out of all the cars they had to judge that day. One of the things discussed at the judges meeting after the show and Monday were ways to streamline the process to get the requested judging sheets out to the judged car owners.  THIS IS WHAT WE WANT ALSO. Just so you know the ability to get the sheets to the owners is out of the hands of the judging staff once turned in to the tally room.  Just my observations. Bob 

[carlite65]

Guys, I really don't want to get into a pissing contest here, but the only things you guys told me about verbally at the show during the judging was the lack of a small amount of strip caulk that was not present on a hole for a rear bumper guard bolt (because my car is a GT and can't have bumper guards due to the exhaust holes) and then about some minor oil leaks.
There was absolutely nothing else spoken about, I even asked you if you'd like to see my newly added seat belt labels that were added since I lost 1 point for at Jacksonville for not having, and Phill, your reply was "you don't need them-you are in Concours" I also asked if you guys wanted to see inside the glove box, because I was so proud of my newly replaced door, and the Red Band tire sticker in the proper place.....I know at Jacksonville that one of the judges helpped himself to open the glove box door and found a very nasty finish on the inside of the door itself and the tire sticker in the wrong place.....
Not that I could have or would have been able to do anything about what you guys were deducting points for at the show......
I truely was under the impression that my car (me NOT being stuck up or anything) would also EARN a Gold award at the Grand National show being is how, like I stated above personally "corrected" at least 8-10 of these lost points, and did nothing else since Jacksonville but keep my car clean and detailed.
I am still really green with the MCA judging and certainly don't know all there is to know, I don't understand why a car's VIN and owners name are not on the judging sheets.....seems to me that this would be a much better way to document a car's status down the road, or in case someone wanted to sell their car, which BTW I am most certainly NOT planning in the future at all.
BTW: Why must these judging sheets go to MCA headquarters before an owner can get them? seems silly as basicly everyone that needs to look over what the judges did are present at the show, and even if they were not-what can they do to recheck judging results after the fact w/o the car present?

it has been standard proceedure for the sheets to go back to the home office to be distributed. that process is to prevent unwanted confrontations at the showsite as happened in years past. mca is working on a way to scan the sheets & be able to send an electronic copy to those who request them. as for the name/vin not being on there i will defer and let the mca tally folks address that question for you. he is on the forum here as 'ruppstang'. please give me a call when yours arrive. i know you were proud of your new glovebox door & setup but we did not look at the others in the class thus to maintain consistency we did not ask to see yours. as for the labels it is my proceedure to not move or touch anything. i judge what i can see as it is presented at that time. you were present when judged. some owners are not. those labels are hidden, again a consistency thing. we are quite often pressed for time and cannot discuss each point that was deducted.

[bryancobb]

Boy!  I've just lost all interest in having my car judged in MCA competition.
It's almost like the Miss USA Pageant (if the judging "dings" were available for viewing)
The car owner should NEVER be allowed to see the judges' specific comments.

I imagine one judge writing "She's a beautiful girl but I am deducting 1 point because of the visible vein on her right calf!"

Then when the Mom and Dad reads the judge's comment, they go look him up and give him a piece of their mind, or worse, saying "That's not a vein you idiot, that's a religious tatoo and you can't deduct for that!"

Do you guys realize how moronic this sounds?  It's not like you're gonna win $100k!  You're fighting over a $50.00 trophy that anyone could buy, a paper inkjet certificate, and bragging rights.

Count me out even though my car will be worthy.

[C5ZZKGT]

Guys, I am now going to tell you all just exactly what took place during my FIRST judged MCA show in Jacksonville, Florida this past May 2011 (The River City National)-since it has been reported to me that the situation has been delt with even though I chose not to report it officially to the MCA for fear of retalliation:

The one judge (who I don't know to this day what his credentials are) came by my car twice during the show-I didn't realize that HE was a judge and would judge my car later.
The second time he came over he said "VERY nice car!" & "I'd like to judge your car" so I invited him to do so, he said someone else would be along to do it.

So, the 3rd time he came over he had a helper in tow and announced that THEY were there to judge my car.
They went over my car pretty well considering the extreeme heat that we all were bearing.
He INSISTED at first that my 289 Hipo engine SHOULD have a decal on the oil filler cap, was ready to make a deduction until he found information to the contrary near the bottom of the page.
The helper literally sat down on the hot pavement with my passengers side door open, bear hugged my passengers seat, pushed the latch and slid the seat back and forth SEVERAL times while grabbing and pulling on my seat belts, I couldn't take it anymore after several minutes I asked him what he was doing, he then asked me if I had LABELS ON MY SEAT BELTS? -I replied "NO" (So, IF in CONCOURS I don't need the labels why was 1 point deducted for NOT having them???)
Then BOTH of them CLIMBED into my back seat crouching on their knees looking up and out the back window and feeling all around the vinyl window and zipper area, they spent close to 5 minutes in there-I heard later that they were looking for evedence of a snap and strap:MCA rules clearly state:IF snap is present then there also must be a strap:Otherwise my top/window/zipper and even the rawhide zipper pull are VERY correct.
(In the process of entering and exiting my car THEY left some small pebbles and sand, then wrote down "minor trash on carpet" mind you I had cleaned first my glasses, then vacuumed the entire floor, and even used a lint roller to make darn sure there was absolutely NO "trash" on my carpet BEFORE the show.
Then 1 of them took his sweat towel and rubbed a place on my outside lower windsheild moulding-then wrote up discoloration on judging sheet, then the other guy took HIS sweat towel and rubbed a place on the outside of my VINYL rear window.
I was strongly urged to make a report to the MCA about this and thought long and hard about it and deceided not to, like I said for fear of retalliation later-
All this talk I hear about the MCA wanting to get and keep members and how great the organization is in general then something like this happens to a newcomer on their first show, its a wonder I elected to correct the noted problems and spend well over $1k in expenses to go to Waldorf,being unemployed for close to a year now, but I did, and I truely enjoyed the show and got to visit an old friend that I hadn't seen since 1987 who lives 1 hour away in Fairfax, Va in the process.

[C5ZZKGT]

Boy!  I've just lost all interest in having my car judged in MCA competition.
It's almost like the Miss USA Pageant (if the judging "dings" were available for viewing)
The car owner should NEVER be allowed to see the judges' specific comments.

I imagine one judge writing "She's a beautiful girl but I am deducting 1 point because of the visible vein on her right calf!"

Then when the Mom and Dad reads the judge's comment, they go look him up and give him a piece of their mind, or worse, saying "That's not a vein you idiot, that's a religious tatoo and you can't deduct for that!"

Do you guys realize how moronic this sounds?  It's not like you're gonna win $100k!  You're fighting over a $50.00 trophy that anyone could buy, a paper inkjet certificate, and bragging rights.

Count me out even though my car will be worthy.

Brian, FYI: The trophy is very nice, and very typical, but no where near $50.00 in value, there is NO fancy ink jet produced document, and heck I didn't even get the stick on label (in my case a "silver") this time-I thought it was in the box with the trophy but it wasn't.

Me being a newcomer, I think that a trophy should have the owners name, the cars VIN,Description, and the award status (such as Gold, Silver, Bronze, Wood) engraved or etched right on it-might cost a couple of bucks more and have to wait for it-I personally would be willing for both if really need be.

[CharlesTurner]

Unfortunately, what happened with Rick is the exact thing that we had been working on improving over the past few years with MCA Judging.  Unfortunately, the judge(s) who looked at his car in Jacksonville have not been coming to many shows and most likely have not listened in on some of the consistency training MCA had been doing, both at the National shows and at the yearly judge's meeting.  We knew that we would not be able to ever achieve 100% consistency, but were working towards that goal, one judge at a time.  I am appalled at the observed actions of the judges at Jacksonville, that is unacceptable no matter what the circumstances.  Thankfully, you got to see judging how it should be done with Fred's team in Waldorf.  Knowing Fred's experience level and how fair he is, I would have to say that your car was not judged correctly at Jacksonville.  That's not to say the Gold wasn't earned, but knowing the experience and knowledge level of both judging teams, I would place my confidence in Fred's.  I would suggest to send off for the judging sheets, see where points were deducted, ask questions, fix what needs to be fixed and try again. 

And to Bryan, you just need to remember that attending MCA shows and having a car judged is simply a choice.  If it's not for you, it's not for you.  But, many others enjoy it and learn a lot through the process.  It's kind of like having a Modified or a Concours car, it's just a personal choice.  No right or wrong either way.