ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: travnemi on July 01, 2015, 08:23:30 PM
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I'm sure this will be a super easy question.
I have a 1967 GTA Fastback S Code San Jose Dec Build.
Which chrome Oil Fill Cap belongs on the motor? For what ever the reason I cant figure it out.
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Since yours is a Thermactor car the cap would be the version with the hose attachment - for the nipple at the front of the air cleaner base
Didn't look into your particular build date period and the top markings but this one was used during the production year
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-010715205720.jpeg)
Might be available in reproduction form
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Jeff, its easy to see the flash in your pic is that cap chrome plated and did all caps of this type have FoMoCo or autolite on them ? Also is this a two piece part, the cap with nipple and a oil fill tube.
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Thanks Jeff,
When I received the engine it had a cap similar to that but the PCV tube 90 degreed up. I couldn't locate the model that was on it so I purchased the one like in your picture. Though it will require a breather tube adapter like the one pictured below.
Thanks for your quick response,
Travis
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The C5ZZ version is for the push on. There is a later (sorry I don't have the part number this moment) version used up into the late 60's that is a "screw" (quarter turn) version. Have seen them in FoMoCo and Autolite markings.
But I was incorrect (forgot for the moment) I don't think the screw on is reproduced but haven't checked
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Jeff, its easy to see the flash in your pic is that cap chrome plated and did all caps of this type have FoMoCo or autolite on them ? Also is this a two piece part, the cap with nipple and a oil fill tube.
Caps in picture are push smallblock type and not applicable to the BB. I have only seen the cookie cutter non emission cap used on thermactor BB engine valve cover . see picture . Not to say there wouldn't be another but I am not aware of another appropriate type used . The cap with the swivel elbow is a 68 style. Just to confuse things I have also seen on a number of occasions the typical open emission BB cap used in period photos. A open emission cap is not designed for a thermactor system but none the less it is seen in some period photos as well as in the field. These are all Shelby applications that I have observed but a 390 may be the same . In the case of the open emission caps seen -some were chrome and some were black.
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But I would need a closed emissions cap, or do you plug off the tube from the air cleaner?
I'm getting a little lost here.
Travis
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Back in the mid 80s I ran across an S code motor that I got for a very good price. It was in a '67 GTA when I went to pick it up. As far as I could tell, it was original to the car. No idea of the build plant, unfortunately. As shown below, it has the chrome twist-on cap with the plastic elbow coming out of the top. I know this is the correct style for '68, but is it correct for this '67 motor? The casting date on the intake is "7C2", no smog equipment when I got the motor, don't know if it originally had it or not.
Please excuse the miscellaneous pieces laying on top of the engine. The extra PCV assembly to the far left is not from this engine. The one that is attached and the loose hose ARE from this motor.
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Back in the mid 80s I ran across an S code motor that I got for a very good price. It was in a '67 GTA when I went to pick it up. As far as I could tell, it was original to the car. No idea of the build plant, unfortunately. As shown below, it has the chrome twist-on cap with the plastic elbow coming out of the top. I know this is the correct style for '68, but is it correct for this '67 motor? The casting date on the intake is "7C2", no smog equipment when I got the motor, don't know if it originally had it or not.
Please excuse the miscellaneous pieces laying on top of the engine. The extra PCV assembly to the far left is not from this engine. The one that is attached and the loose hose ARE from this motor.
The date code on a intake would not be relevant to other parts that are easily taken off and replaced like a breather cap. The typical 68 would have the metal block nipple. The late 68-70 cap had the black plastic nipple like in the picture. With that information you can easily come to the conclusion that the cap in the picture had been replaced.
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But I would need a closed emissions cap, or do you plug off the tube from the air cleaner?
I'm getting a little lost here.
Travis
I do not think there is a twist on cap with a nipple used in 67. With that said I am not sure about any hose to the aircleaner base.
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The date code on a intake would not be relevant to other parts that are easily taken off and replaced like a breather cap. The typical 68 would have the metal block nipple. The late 68-70 cap had the black plastic nipple like in the picture. With that information you can easily come to the conclusion that the cap in the picture had been replaced.
I didn't realize there were two different elbows used in '68. Which one would be appropriate for a Feb. '68 SJ build? I can repost this question as its own topic if it is straying too far from the original question.
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Bob,
The Marti Report says I have a closed crankcase emissions system, what does that mean?
Thanks Travis
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Bob,
The Marti Report says I have a closed crankcase emissions system, what does that mean?
Thanks Travis
It means that none of the engine fumes are expelled to the open air. Fumes are closed off or recirculated back into the engine. Does your aircleaner have a fitting for a hose from a breather cap?
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I didn't realize there were two different elbows used in '68. Which one would be appropriate for a Feb. '68 SJ build? I can repost this question as its own topic if it is straying too far from the original question.
As it relates to a BB ,the one with a metal block elbow.
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............... A open emission cap is not designed for a thermactor system but none the less it is seen in some period photos as well as in the field. These are all Shelby applications that I have observed but a 390 may be the same . In the case of the open emission caps seen -some were chrome and some were black.
Bob - have never seen that cap on a Mustang. It would not have the connection needed for emissions and connection with the air cleaner as required for a Thermactor car.
The Marti Report says I have a closed crankcase emissions system, what does that mean?
No open fumes into the atmosphere . All were to be recirculated into the engine (reburnt) In the manuals the hose between the air cleaner and the breather cap is highlighted as for "Closed systems only" This is the way I've always found original 67 390's I've owned and seen in this state.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715011024.jpeg)
One of many diagrams - just the one I picked. JUST A GENERIC DRAWING not specific to this engine nor even Ford engines
- By 68-69 they started to refer to this type of system as a Type 4 system or a closed or combination one. It worked in conjunction with the PCV system on the other side of the engine.
- The system Bob showed on the 67 Shelby is described or identified by Ford as a Type 2 system where they used a restricted oil filler cap and a PCV system on the other side of the engine
All this (description) from Ford manuals - in this case Engine Emission Control Systems volume I
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715010959.jpeg)
Have another 6-10 manuals, course work (class manuals and teaching guides) that cover 66-72 emission systems
In the picture from left to right 67, 68, 69 & 74 versions. Loose leaf in back I believe is the teaching guide for the 67 course
Guess we should at least ask/address do you have the correct air cleaner for the application?
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I'm not sure if I have the correct air cleaner on it. But here's a picture of the air cleaner and breather cap that came with the car when I purchased it. I've been looking for the breather cap to have rechromed but I cant seem to find it. I hope the wife or kids didn't through it out (it did look a little rough).
Travis
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I'm not sure if I have the correct air cleaner on it. But here's a picture of the air cleaner and breather cap that came with the car when I purchased it. I've been looking for the breather cap to have rechromed but I cant seem to find it. I hope the wife or kids didn't through it out (it did look a little rough).
Travis
I am not very familiar with a 67 390 GT thermactor set up other then what is in common with a Shelby. The breather cap in the picture is one I am familiar with but have never seen the twist on variety. I have only seen the push on variety which is small block. The twist on variety must be about as rare as the cookie cutter type that I am more familiar with. If the air cleaner base is correct for the application then It would stand to reason that the early style twist on cap with the fixed turned up elbow is the most likely candidate since the later ribbed style with the swivel elbow on top is more typical to 68 and later. You may have to settle with the easier (relatively speaking ) to find smallblock push on version and use the adapter that you posted earlier at least until you find the genuine twist on type. Just some thoughts.
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I'm not sure if I have the correct air cleaner on it. But here's a picture of the air cleaner and breather cap that came with the car when I purchased it. I've been looking for the breather cap to have rechromed but I cant seem to find it.
That is one of the versions used on 67 390 Mustang with Thermactors - the types and applications is a whole "nother discussion but as of right now think I have 4 different original styles/versions used on 67 390 Mustangs
Just my humble opinion at the moment is that the up turned nipple isn't right for the application - it produces an additional bend in the hose and requires slightly more hose to make a connection - one possible reason for Ford to use the straight nipple. Since the air cleaner base is the same as the T-Bird and different from the taller Fairline base its interesting that Ford lists that the service replacement is the same piece. T-Bird's didn't come with the chrome dress up option so they didn't get chromed versions like the 67 Mustang and the GT Fairlanes did
Had forgotten about the "adapter you showed and could not recall if that was an aftermarket piece/fix or a factory one. Really can't recall if the 390's I had used a push on or twist so went back to the pictures and books from the period.
Here is what I found
Went through my pictures and I found these. I didn't include those where it was obvious that many things had been altered or that were using the 1970 - up style of breather caps. Because of this I still have a fair number of examples. Still some things on these cars that have been altered and replaced so no virgins. Normally I don't post pictures of restored cars but in this case I did for one example.
Cars shown in order from early to late. Please read the captions.
Just throwing this all on the wall to see what sticks - in a unbiased attempt to find a decent answer for the poster
You will see a number of different style of air cleaners with the front nipple - don't let this distract your focus ;)
To remind everyone here is what the bare valve cover opening for the breather looks like
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715011956.jpeg)
7R1059xxx pretty early car
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715194515.jpeg)
7R141xxx - restored car
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715194530.jpeg)
7R121xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715194441.jpeg)
7R151xxx - "restored" car
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715194559.jpeg)
7R191xxx Not sure what to think of this one - plenty of stuff has been changed and messed with. Almost didn't include
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715194616.jpeg)
7R212xxx - "restored car"
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715194457.jpeg)
Somewhat from left field but still may relate
67 390 T-Bird with Therm. As mentioned the same air cleaner base so possibly same cap?
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715194425.jpeg)
Last two (later cars) both messed with have the upturned nipple. Others have the straight
Now off to find reference to that adapter somewhere
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OK could not find the adapter (valve cover to breather cap) in the 67-8 MPC I have.
Turned to the assembly manuals and found it listed using the part number C5AE-6A873-A. So my assumption earlier that it was a twist on cap appears to be the result of not a perfect memory from 25 plus years ago. Last time I put oil in a 67 390
So I agree with the some of the others that your looking for a FoMoCo stamped chrome push-on closed cap with the nipple.
MPC and assembly manual do not match on what they suggest is the cap - not a surprise and with documented mistakes in one and the other being a list of replacement parts I'm uncertain that either is the perfect source
Just wanted to offer what I was able to discover - another puzzle - but we're getting closer with more documentation
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OK could not find the adapter (valve cover to breather cap) in the 67-8 MPC I have.
Turned to the assembly manuals and found it listed using the part number C5AE-6A873-A. So my assumption earlier that it was a twist on cap appears to be the result of not a perfect memory from 25 plus years ago. Last time I put oil in a 67 390
So I agree with the some of the others that your looking for a FoMoCo stamped chrome push-on closed cap with the nipple.
MPC and assembly manual do not match on what they suggest is the cap - not a surprise and with documented mistakes in one and the other being a list of replacement parts I'm uncertain that either is the perfect source
Just wanted to offer what I was able to discover - another puzzle - but we're getting closer with more documentation
Jeff,I have always been under the impression that the push on adapter is a aftermarket gadget which may be reinforced by the fact you couldn't find it in the MPC. The adapter and the push on cap my be a good alternative however as I suggested in my post.
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Jeff,I have always been under the impression that the push on adapter is a aftermarket gadget which may be reinforced by the fact you couldn't find it in the MPC. .........
Understand and that is the way I was leaning until I found it in the 67 Assembly Manual illustration (Thermactor system section pg 126 dated Feb 10), identified as an adapter for Cougar and Mustang 390 applications and with a Ford part number
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Found another (in my unlabeled pile of pictures) on an unrestored but slightly played with 7R202xxx fastback I saw last year. Rare comp suspension car.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715214546.jpeg)
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Found another (in my unlabeled pile of pictures) on an unrestored but slightly played with 7R202xxx fastback I saw last year. Rare comp suspension car.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/4/6-020715214546.jpeg)
The bent style chrome monte carlo bar and the copper mecanicl oil pressure gauge line don't instill a lot of faith in the correctness of the oil filler cap ;) . I have only seen a twist type opening on BB valve covers . Was there ever a fill neck type valve cover on a BB?
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Thank you both for all the research. I tore my garage apart today looking for that cap to see if there was a part number on it. No luck! bummer!!!
Travis
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Understand and that is the way I was leaning until I found it in the 67 Assembly Manual illustration (Thermactor system section pg 126 dated Feb 10), identified as an adapter for Cougar and Mustang 390 applications and with a Ford part number
I looked over that illustration and although the illustrated cap and air cleaner assembly bear little resemblance to a 390 GT air cleaner or any of the caps we have discussed the fact that there is a adapter which appears similar to the ones sold be Mustang vendors has changed my mind on it's existence. FYI breather caps typically do not have engineering numbers stamped on them.
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The text clipping is from Section 60.6 (352, 390) of the '75 MPC. It lists C5AZ-6A868-A for various big block applications. The -A is aso called out for a few small block applications elsewhere in the MPC.
The photos show an NOS -B for comparison. The only reference to this part number in the '75 MPC (that I could find) is for 240 sixes for 68/71. I haven't found a photo of an known original -A, but several Mustang vendors sell reproductions of the -A, and visually it looks close to the -B. The -B does not seem to have the same circumferential groove as the -A.
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I will speak to the choir on MY understanding of the breather caps I have seen having lived in the Thermactor world of So.Calif. for +20 years, late-70's-up, working on countless of many makes and models of the era.
The Push-on OE FoMoCo breather cap with the attached steel hose elbow turned UPWARDS was found on 66-67 SMALL BLOCKS with thermactors. The turn-up was intended to clear the factory Air Conditioner bracket.
All Big Block Apps that I saw , those which were running the thermactors for 67's (closed crankshaft systems) the OE FoMoCo breather caps were all the push-on's with the straight sideways steel hose attached. The turned up elbow was not needed on FE engines for clearing the bracket like it was needed on the small blocks.
FWIW, in reproduction, NOS or even the used world of parts, I have yet to see an OE or OE style FoMoCo CHROMED version of the push-on breather cap that has the turned up end, I have seen COUNTLESS of the OE or OE style CHROMED with the straight sideways steel nipple attached. Since(to my understanding), 390 Mustangs all came with the chrome dress up kit, then this is the only logically correct breather~ A CHROMED, straight-nipple push-on type.
NOW: 67Shelby??? ~ THAT IS ANOTHER CAN OF WORMS! I'll deffer to the Shelby experts for anything that would be on one of those.
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The hose was adlibbed for lack of something to imitate, these are the pieces that came with my car(http://)4/28/67 dearborn
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The hose was adlibbed for lack of something to imitate, these are the pieces that came with my car(http://)4/28/67 dearborn
interesting. A different style cap then has been shown in the previous discussion. That has to be a rare cap (push on and flat across the top with nipple).It looks more like the typical BB cap I am used to seeing although it is push on and has a closed emission nipple. I looked closer and saw that there was no trademark on the cap which leads me to believe that it is some kind of aftermarket cap.Ford caps typically had trademark on them.
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Understand and that is the way I was leaning until I found it in the 67 Assembly Manual illustration (Thermactor system section pg 126 dated Feb 10), identified as an adapter for Cougar and Mustang 390 applications and with a Ford part number
That was the page I had highlighted as to the build of my 390.
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............I looked closer and saw that there was no trademark on the cap which leads me to believe that it is some kind of aftermarket cap.Ford caps typically had trademark on them.
+1
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Per the '75 MPC, change L8 switched the LH valve cover. Did this impact the breather cap?
Added legend from bottom of page.
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Per the '75 MPC, change L8 switched the LH valve cover. Did this impact the breather cap?
Interesting section. MPC of the period have separate lists for the open emission and closed emission valve covers and breathers. maybe while attempting to reduce the number of parts Ford wanted to carry seven years later they compiled a bunch together.
At the bottom of the page is there a legend to the symbols ?
Will see what I can find listed on that change.
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At the bottom of the page is there a legend to the symbols ?
Added legend to my previous post (to keep them together).
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Ran across a couple of old threads with some possible relevant discussion to "odd" valve covers on a '67:
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=5000.15 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=5000.15)
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=5000.0 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=5000.0)
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Was there any agreement as to witch cap is correct ?
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Was there any agreement as to witch cap is correct ?
I believe from personal observation and some photo documentation the chrome straight nipple style was the consensus :)
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Somehow missed posting this with the other MPC clippings. Also from the '75 MPC. Plus a photo of an NOS C5ZZ-D.
(The # symbol is listed as "Identification Marking" in the MPC)
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Somehow missed posting this with the other MPC clippings. Also from the '75 MPC. Plus a photo of an NOS C5ZZ-D.
(The # symbol is listed as "Identification Marking" in the MPC)
Can someone decipher the application meaning of the mpc listing ? The picture is of later 70"s version of the cap or the last style before it went obsolete. It is not relevant to a 60's engine regardless of application because of it's different markings /look .
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Can someone decipher the application meaning of the mpc listing ? The picture is of later 70"s version of the cap or the last style before it went obsolete. It is not relevant to a 60's engine regardless of application because of it's different markings /look .
"65/67 66/69 B-GT, F(4/B)" - "B" is Fairlane, "GT" is the 390GT motor. "F" is Mustang, "(4/B)" is 4-barrel carb. Usually the MPC will specifically list "GT" for the 390GT, but sometimes it seems to get included under the 4/B description. Also, as we all know, this type of cap was not used for 68-69 Mustang, so gotta take the entries with a grain of salt.
"68/69 A, B, F(2/B, 4/B)" "A" is full-size, "B" & "F" as described above. Looks to me like they got a bit lazy on this entry, threw everything in one line, and used "AR" (as required) to let the parts guy sort it out. I don't have an earlier copy of the MPC, perhaps the entries were more detailed?
The photo is relevant to show the configuration of the cap with the straight side spout. Yes it's a replacement part but since the caps are not marked with part numbers, but lacking engineering drawings it was the best way I could find to link the C5ZZ-D part number to a specific cap. That assumes the cap came in that box, of course. I didn't want use a photo of repro parts with that number, because that makes even more assumptions. For example, the Scott Drake C5ZZ-D repro appears to replicate the cap we're talking about, but the application sticker on the package indicates "65/66".
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... the Scott Drake C5ZZ-D repro appears to replicate the cap we're talking about, but the application sticker on the package indicates "65/66".
That is exactly what I recall seing on the 65-67's with CLOSED emmissions, usually Thermactor equipped on 67's. It has the FoMoCo logo. I've seen them most of the time as BLACK on non-Mustang applications (only chrome one time, not sure what it was on now...Probably my brothers 67 Fairlane 390 GTA)
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That is exactly what I recall seeing on the 65-67's with CLOSED emissions, usually Thermactor equipped on 67's.........
Agreed - and what was said way back at the beginning ;)
Just with the earlier markings. An MPC printed almost 10 years after has allot of credibility but its nice it match3s as far as style
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"65/67 66/69 B-GT, F(4/B)" - "B" is Fairlane, "GT" is the 390GT motor. "F" is Mustang, "(4/B)" is 4-barrel carb. Usually the MPC will specifically list "GT" for the 390GT, but sometimes it seems to get included under the 4/B description. Also, as we all know, this type of cap was not used for 68-69 Mustang, so gotta take the entries with a grain of salt.
"68/69 A, B, F(2/B, 4/B)" "A" is full-size, "B" & "F" as described above. Looks to me like they got a bit lazy on this entry, threw everything in one line, and used "AR" (as required) to let the parts guy sort it out. I don't have an earlier copy of the MPC, perhaps the entries were more detailed?
The photo is relevant to show the configuration of the cap with the straight side spout. Yes it's a replacement part but since the caps are not marked with part numbers, but lacking engineering drawings it was the best way I could find to link the C5ZZ-D part number to a specific cap. That assumes the cap came in that box, of course. I didn't want use a photo of repro parts with that number, because that makes even more assumptions. For example, the Scott Drake C5ZZ-D repro appears to replicate the cap we're talking about, but the application sticker on the package indicates "65/66".
Thanks for the help on the MPC application decipher. The cap picture has the rivit button on the top which is a common replacement that I hate to see used on a restoration when a superior repro is available like the Drake one. FYI the trademark in script in the oval is correct for early 67 and the FOMOCO in a rectangle didn't start being used until later 67.
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I asked about a consensus because of the pics Jeff posted on page two, first car 7R121xxx looks more like my repro part as does the one shown on the thunderbird, flat on top without the angled portion around the periphery, understanding it may be not relevant, the ones pictured on the restored look like the Scott Drake part. would it be safe to say the Scott Drake part may be the best replacement I may be able to find ? Thanks Paul.
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I asked about a consensus because of the pics Jeff posted on page two, first car 7R121xxx looks more like my repro part as does the one shown on the thunderbird, flat on top without the angled portion around the periphery, understanding it may be not relevant, the ones pictured on the restored look like the Scott Drake part. would it be safe to say the Scott Drake part may be the best replacement I may be able to find ? Thanks Paul.
The flat top I s a twist on . One with flat top and nipple never made apparently which is reason for adapter it seems.
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I see, thanks Bob. Would the Scott Drake oil fill cap be my best replacement option then ?
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I see, thanks Bob. Would the Scott Drake oil fill cap be my best replacement option then ?
The Drake closed emission cap is a very nice reproduction. As we have come to the conclusion on this thread one like it was used along with a push on to twist on adapter for a 390 GT with thermactor application. You just have to figure out which trademark style is best for your build of car . Early was the Ford in script in the oval or the Fomoco in block letters in the rectangle which was introduced later . I would guess March 67 plus or minus as a change over but that would be just a guess based on Small block caps seen. I have no experience with BB application as it applies to a 390GT with thermactor.
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I know this is an old thread and is dealing specifically with the closed system. I was wondering if anyone has a picture for a 390 GTA open system? Would this be the push on as well, or would it be a twist on?
Thanks
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Got another question related to 67 VC caps...... The "Cookie cutter" caps that Bob showed in his first picture, what Shelby application are they ? I thought they were only 67 427 Fairlane...... The pic shows what looks like a fairly new 67 Shelby, but it has CS Shelby valve covers. Kinda confused. Disclaimer... I'm not a Shelby guy, more of a 428CJ guy.....
Thank's John
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Got another question related to 67 VC caps...... The "Cookie cutter" caps that Bob showed in his first picture, what Shelby application are they ? I thought they were only 67 427 Fairlane...... The pic shows what looks like a fairly new 67 Shelby, but it has CS Shelby valve covers. Kinda confused. Disclaimer... I'm not a Shelby guy, more of a 428CJ guy.....
Thank's John
67 427 Fairlane shared more then a few engine parts with the 67 GT500. The closed emission cap (think thermactor system) on a 427 Fairlane is the same used on a 67 GT500 with thermactor.
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Got another question related to 67 VC caps...... The "Cookie cutter" caps that Bob showed in his first picture, what Shelby application are they ? I thought they were only 67 427 Fairlane...... The pic shows what looks like a fairly new 67 Shelby, but it has CS Shelby valve covers. Kinda confused. Disclaimer... I'm not a Shelby guy, more of a 428CJ guy.....
Thank's John
The picture was from a vintage 1967 Popular Mechanics (if i remember correctly) article. Part of the article had to do with installing the over the counter valve covers, tuning and maintenance. That is why you see the replacement valve covers on a then 'new" car. I hope that ends the confusion.
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I know this is an old thread and is dealing specifically with the closed system. I was wondering if anyone has a picture for a 390 GTA open system? Would this be the push on as well, or would it be a twist on?
Have pictures (a few so many 390's were played with ::) But they don't allow you to see how the breather cap on the drivers side attaches (with or without adapter) unfortunately its been difficult to find really nice unrestored/original 67 390 cars. Plenty of breather caps have been replaced as well as air cleaners through the years also
Did check the Cougar pictures (of which I have a few) also to check for you