ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: 67gtasanjose on February 01, 2017, 11:29:45 AM
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I'm trying to establish the correct finishes of the various components of the IDLER PULLEY ASSEMBLY, such as the bracket, the pulley and center bearing cap. Working on an Air Conditioned 289, With power Steering and Thermactor Equipment, 11/66 built in San Jose example if it makes any difference. UPDATED PER THREAD DISCUSSION: It has been determined through this thread's discussion, that EARLY 67 289's DID NOT USE THIS BRACKET & IDLER PULLEY. A Ford TSB came about over the production year and later production cars seemed to include the updated installation of this IDLER pulley which mounts on the lateral bracket between the AC compressor and the crankshaft pulley ~(this discussion is over THAT Idler pulley, not the tensioner pulley found on non-Thermactor vehicles, though "finishes" are the same of both assemblies)
A search did not really discuss much about the various finishes.
1.) BRACKET: is it semi-gloss black? Phosphate and oil? Natural steel?
2.) PULLEY: I assume it is BLACK, yes or no?
3.) CENTER CAP: Natural or Clear Zinc? or other?
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I'm trying to establish the correct finishes of the various components of the IDLER PULLEY ASSEMBLY, such as the bracket, the pulleyand center bearing cap. Working on an Air Conditioned 289, With power Steering and Thermactor Equipment. 11/66 built in San Jose example if it makes any difference.
A search did not really discuss much about the various finishes.
1.) BRACKET: is it semi-gloss black? Phosphate and oil? Natural steel?
2.) PULLEY: I assume it is BLACK, yes or no?
3.) CENTER CAP: Natural or Clear Zinc? or other?
1.) is P/O , 2.)semi gloss black (vary degress of BK but not high gloss) , 3.) zinc silver
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1.) is P/O , 2.)semi gloss black (vary degress of BK but not high gloss) , 3.) zinc silver
Dems the answers I seek and what looked like things were under the "everything is sg black" paint job I removed ;)
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This should provide a visual idea of what they were doing. Always found the gloss level in the idler pulleys to originally have been higher than any AC bracket or engine pulleys by comparison
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-010217172133.jpeg)
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Here is the one I am working on
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Here is the one I am working on
I see that bracket without a pulley installed in it in the installation instructions for the 289 below
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-010217180355-6702141.jpeg)
Illustrations show the routing of the belts Doesn't show routing for application with thermactor where the idler is not used
Couldn't find any 67 examples with a pulley mounted below the AC pump and the crank shaft pulley
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I see that bracket without a pulley installed in it in the installation instructions for the 289 below
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-010217180355-6702141.jpeg)
Illustrations show the routing of the belts Doesn't show routing for application with thermactor where the idler is not used
Couldn't find any 67 examples with a pulley mounted below the AC pump and the crank shaft pulley
Looks like to me, the same pulley on the adjuster is pressed off the adjuster bracket, the adjuster bracket then gets tossed and the pulley & bearing gets pressed into the hole on the long bracket instead for Thermactor. (like mine is)
The assembly manuals show it a little bit, but not clear in either the engine manual or chassis manuals
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My SJ C-code coupe AC car (built 12/06/1966) has no idler pulley; belt runs from crankshaft pulley (front sheave of three) to AC compressor to Thermactor pump. No idler pulley.
For a visual, consult Small Block Ford V8 1962-1969 book by Mannel on p. 7-37; section 7K21 (d). The photo and narrative says for 1967: "Mustang/Cougar with A/C, T/E and P/S. Looking more like a big-block than a 289, its air pump served as the A/C idler pulley and belt adjuster."
This is the configuration on my car and would be consistent with the diagram and info posted above.
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Looks through related pictures and dont recall ever seeing an idler pulley there nor could I find a car set up that way Not sure of what purpose the pulley would have since the distance is the same as in the non-Thermactor applications. Don't believe the K codes with AC, Thermactor and PS (Shelbys) had it either
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-010217183123-67061142.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-010217183121-6705560.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-010217183120-67042215.jpeg)
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My SJ C-code coupe AC car (built 12/06/1966) has no idler pulley; belt runs from crankshaft pulley (front sheave of three) to AC compressor to Thermactor pump. No idler pulley.
For a visual, consult Small Block Ford V8 1962-1969 book by Mannel on p. 7-37; section 7K21 (d). The photo and narrative says for 1967: "Mustang/Cougar with A/C, T/E and P/S. Looking more like a big-block than a 289, its air pump served as the A/C idler pulley and belt adjuster."
This is the configuration on my car and would be consistent with the diagram and info posted above.
You have got the idler pulleys confused. The one you are referring to is the ADJUSTABLE idler pulley that your system doesn't use. In your case the thermactor pump serves that adjustment purpose . You should have in your system and what the OP shows in his picture is the FIXED idler pulley. It doesn't have any adjustment as the name imply and it is meant to keep the bottom side of the belt loop taut . It can be seen in Jeff's drawn illustrations but can not be seen in the Mannel book page 7-37 picture D because the fan obstructs it.
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Looks through related pictures and dont recall ever seeing an idler pulley there nor could I find a car set up that way Not sure of what purpose the pulley would have since the distance is the same as in the non-Thermactor applications. Don't believe the K codes with AC, Thermactor and PS (Shelbys) had it either
Interesting. (And seeing images, makes me wonder)
I'm 100% sure mine is set up as I received it and sure I wouldn't just add it in for kicks & giggles. This and seeing the same bracket in the assembly manual images and the same bracket used in the other illustration you (Jeff) posted. I just pressed it apart this morning to change the bearing and to restore the bracket & pulley.
As far as "why" it would be there, I imagine to dampen the belt slap on that extra long run.
Anyways, I plan to put it back in there and will answer to it as being "as found".
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Here is the one I am working on
That is the lower mounted "fixed" idler pulley it is used on both BB and SB A/C Mustang systems.
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Interesting. (And seeing images, makes me wonder)
I'm 100% sure mine is set up as I received it and sure I wouldn't just add it in for kicks & giggles. This and seeing the same bracket in the assembly manual images and the same bracket used in the other illustration you (Jeff) posted. I just pressed it apart this morning to change the bearing and to restore the bracket & pulley.
As far as "why" it would be there, I imagine to dampen the belt slap on that extra long run.
Anyways, I plan to put it back in there and will answer to it as being "as found".
You didn't read my post yet I guess. Yours is correct for the application IMO. ;D
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This should provide a visual idea of what they were doing. Always found the gloss level in the idler pulleys to originally have been higher than any AC bracket or engine pulleys by comparison
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-010217172133.jpeg)
The cast iron brace in the picture is the lower fixed idler minus the pulley.
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Page 7-35 of Mannels book shows the lower fixed idler and it's placement.
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............. It can be seen in Jeff's drawn illustrations................
Note - Only the bracket is shown in the illustration.
The cast iron brace in the picture is the lower fixed idler minus the pulley.
Agreed that that bracket is shown.
Guess the question could be made - was this bracket and pulley used through the whole production year and can we find another example that would confirm its use?
BTW not finding any 390 examples with that lower fixed pulley
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Page 7-35 of Mannels book shows the lower fixed idler and it's placement.
Grabbed my copy of Bob Mannels book and found the caption that goes along with the picture mentioned
"a new fixed pulley (a) was used on all cars with the new A/C systems except the Mustang and Cougar" how ever by 3/67, even the Cougar and Mustang began using them.." apparently there was a TSB that went out suggesting it be added to earlier produced cars
So I guess (IMHO ) that helps allot and explains why we're find originals without as well as factory documents without the detail and others with the feature
So reading this Richards Nov 66 car would not have originally had the fixed pulley is what I take away from this discussion and investigation
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Grabbed my copy of Bob Mannels book and found the caption that goes along with the picture mentioned
"a new fixed pulley (a) was used on all cars with the new A/C systems except the Mustang and Cougar" how ever by 3/67, even the Cougar and Mustang began using them.." apparently there was a TSB that went out suggesting it be added to earlier produced cars
So I guess (IMHO ) that helps allot and explains why we're find originals without as well as factory documents without the detail and others with the feature
So reading this Richards Nov 66 car would not have originally had the fixed pulley is what I take away from this discussion and investigation
Unless it was updated given the TSB prior to being sold to the first owner ;) .
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Now that we have gone down that rabbit hole, it should be mentioned that for 1967 289 engines, there were two different lateral brackets used. Jeff's picture shows the 2nd generation one, which was use well into 1968. It's casting number is C7AA-2888-G. The early cars had a lateral bracket with the casting number of C7ZA-2888-C. The change was around 1/3/1967, depending upon plant I would imagine. The original question on finishes should still apply though.
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Unless it was updated given the TSB prior to being sold to the first owner ;) .
I was thinking the same thing. Car first sold 10/7/1967 (off Marti Report). I always figured this actual build date 11/02/66 example was used by the dealership as a Demo till the 68's arrived. I do know the AC compressor, being a piston-type, really works those long runs of the drive belts. This car was a Mojave Desert dweller (AC would be running pretty much daily, year round) so I imagine any complaints and subsequent TSB's of this sort were more than likely carried out pre-delivery to the first owner.
I updated my initial post to include a summary of discussion and to help readers avoid confusion (I hope the edit helps readers in avoiding confusion, we'll see)
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Unless it was updated given the TSB prior to being sold to the first owner ;) .
Ya and he could use apply the Caution Fan decal if the car wasn't sold until till 72 or the seat repair campaign fix if the seats had broken before it was first sold. LOL
We've both head the stories on the show field question is always how to restore the car, can you document it and how will the judges (if shown) address it. At least at this point we see that it was not built with that feature nor is it related to a safety defect
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Ya and he could use apply the Caution Fan decal if the car wasn't sold until till 72 or the seat repair campaign fix if the seats had broken before it was first sold. LOL
We've both head the stories on the show field question is always how to restore the car, can you document it and how will the judges (if shown) address it. At least at this point we see that it was not built with that feature nor is it related to a safety defect
;D I knew that would get you going. ;D Yes if the car was not sold prior to March 67 it could be a viable argument if not then it isn't . FYI anyone driving their car would do well to take note of the TSB regardless on when their car 67 was built.
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Ya and he could use apply the Caution Fan decal if the car wasn't sold until till 72 or the seat repair campaign fix if the seats had broken before it was first sold. LOL
We've both head the stories on the show field question is always how to restore the car, can you document it and how will the judges (if shown) address it. At least at this point we see that it was not built with that feature nor is it related to a safety defect
WHAT??? My C9 replacement fan shroud came from Ford WITH the "Caution Fan" sticker on it! So that's wrong too!!!! ???? :o ;D lol!
Yep! It is one of those things I will leave on...but mine will be occasionally driven, NOT Thoroughbred Class, not an example with numbers everywhere matching 100%...I'm working towards a '1-year-old looking restoration' since the car was at about a year old when first sold new. (and budget is better for my purposes of use too ;) ) Regardless, KNOWING what is wrong with it and accepting that imperfection is a choice. I CHOOSE also to leave the Caution Fan sticker off ;)
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........ FYI anyone driving their car would do well to take note of the TSB regardless on when their car 67 was built.
Personal choice if your going to drive the car IMHO - allot of 66- 67 V8s out there that have been used for 50 years without that pulley without issue
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Personal choice if your going to drive the car IMHO - allot of 66- 67 V8s out there that have been used for 50 years without that pulley without issue
I agree 67 on up big block and small block Mustangs all used the fixed idler (minuscule percentage of production that didn't in early 67 ) but many get put together without it and can be run for years without consequence. A/C belt slap is not that annoying but apparently enough of a issue for Ford to spend the money and effort to incorporate the fixed idler pulley into millions of A/C systems shared in a variety of Ford body styles over a number of years. With that said my previous statement concerning the TBS may have merit to some.
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Personal choice if your going to drive the car IMHO - allot of 66- 67 V8s out there that have been used for 50 years without that pulley without issue
True. AC will function either way...with or without the "slap idler" pulley. Something to note on a scientific fact...The higher the "High Side" pressure reading of the AC system pressure, the more noticeable the "slapping" of the belt might be. (the slap occurs at idle speeds for most part). A person running alternative refrigerants should expect a HIGHER high-side pressure reading AND then add any potential of a higher ambient air temperature (say over 100F degrees), you could expect even higher readings than the Ford engineers were dealing with in the 1960's. I've experienced such belt slap on similar long belt drives.
Living 21 years in the Palm Springs area and servicing AC systems including being certified for retrofitting early cars to R134-a refrigerant, the experiences taught me a lot...and the one take-away I can offer is FOR DRIVEN REGULARLY CARS, these old compressors work best if retrofit with the Sanden rotary style compressors AND you'll notice GREATLY IMPROVED FUEL ECONOMY while operating on these alternative refrigerants. OBVIOUSLY, this is not at all Concours, so this Modification falls way outside the focus of this forum. A high efficiency condenser is a good idea too, they are now producing one that looks +90% original. There are ways I know to improve efficiency of the old retrofit systems that many are not aware of...MAXIMIZING the air flow through the condenser is the easiest way, but there are other ways too ;)
Personally, I plan to fire my system up on a rebuilt OE Ford compressor with a modern refrigerant oil that is compatible with the newer 134a freon. After it has been determined to be functioning fine on the 134a, I'll recover out the 134a and shoot it up with R-12. I want the system to LOOK antique and original to the year of car it is, so the upgrade NOT worth the change in appearance for my desires.