ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: C9ZZ-16228-B on March 21, 2017, 12:32:40 PM
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I'm trying to get more info on 65-66 u-joints, particularly the inside lock ring type. Does anyone have any pictures of originals? I've been looking around and can't find any pictures, only of the outside lock ring variety.
Were assembly line joints not drilled for a grease fitting, or did some come with a plug (like some of the service replacements)?
Did assembly line rear joints have a strap welded across the two 1-1/8" caps? It makes sense that they would...if so, is that something that is looked for in concourse judging?
Are plugged joints allowed in concourse judging? I saw in the MCA rule book it said no grease fittings.
thanks,
Garrett
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I'm trying to get more info on 65-66 u-joints, particularly the inside lock ring type. Does anyone have any pictures of originals? I've been looking around and can't find any pictures, only of the outside lock ring variety.
Were assembly line joints not drilled for a grease fitting, or did some come with a plug (like some of the service replacements)?
Did assembly line rear joints have a strap welded across the two 1-1/8" caps? It makes sense that they would...if so, is that something that is looked for in concourse judging?
Are plugged joints allowed in concourse judging? I saw in the MCA rule book it said no grease fittings.
thanks,
Garrett
I have a assembly line 65 V8 driveshaft that still has the tack welded strap to hold the caps on prior to installing on rear end yoke on the assemblyline . I keep it for reference. The U joint has a "pressed " in zert and not a hex threaded in zert. This is contrary to what I had previously thought. I have been told by one of my peers that this was earlier 65 before Ford going to a pre lubed type with no zert .
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Thanks Bob, is that an inside or outside lock ring arrangement? Can you see any markings in the center of the joint?
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I've nave never found any originals on San Jose built cars (nor other plants) nor seen any. Just my experience over the years.
Unfortunately this is an often replaced part so few originals survived through the years.
Here are two examples from early San Jose
5R07A129xx U joint - Yes a snail had taken up residence in this one.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-210317153313.jpeg)
5R07C118xx U joint
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-210317153452.jpeg)
Not sure what the part number, year or application this one was for but it shows a number of markings that would help identify - at least from this supplier
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-210317153806.jpeg)
As a side note I do have what is believed to be a very early Dearborn car (prior to when the other two plants were operating) with a factory U joint with a zert but only that one
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Thanks Jeff - I don't suppose there's a way to get a shaft diameter measurement off that joint, is there?
Is there a consensus on inside vs. outside lock ring for '65? Is there a changeover date or were they used simultaneously? Is it possible that Ford took on Borg Warner as an additional u-joint/slipyoke (or complete driveshaft assy?) supplier because they couldn't keep up with production?
thanks!
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Thanks Jeff - I don't suppose there's a way to get a shaft diameter measurement off that joint, is there?
Sorry have no idea where those drivelines are. Often I would just find them in yards, take a picture for reference and evidence then move on
Is there a consensus on inside vs. outside lock ring for '65? Is there a changeover date or were they used simultaneously? Is it possible that Ford took on Borg Warner as an additional u-joint/slipyoke (or complete driveshaft assy?) supplier because they couldn't keep up with production?
Not aware of Ford having problems keeping up with the needs of the line any more that they are today. At the same time Ford normally would not rely on a single provider for anything. And if made by Ford then multiple plants. Henry learned early in his career what a single source could do to production.
Can I assume that your asking about A and C code drivelines?
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Well, A, C, and K...from what i've read in other posts some people swear the hipo's came with inside lock rings and some swear they were all outside lock rings...
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My January '65 Dearborn 6 cyl/auto. Factory original U Joints rebuilt by Dead Nuts On--Maybe this will help for what you're looking for.
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The first 2 pictures are from my 10K mile June 65 Dearborn convertible. The second 2 are from my Aug 64 4K mile Dearborn coupe . Both A codes.
Not the slotted hex head plug in the Aug 64 joint. I believe that the June 65 joints have a round slotted plug, but I'll have to check.
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Here is picture of U joint caps tack welded with strap. It makes sense why they would be done this way. I have seen some caps with pieces of slag on them and could not figure out what it was from. When I was told about this as a early factory installation I started to look more closely at early drive shafts and then found this driveshaft which I keep as a curiosity /reference piece. I was mistaken about the pressed in zerts as these are screw in. I don't have much back ground on this type of U joint and am just retelling what I was told by a peer I respect (John Brown) who was also present when I found this driveshaft. Here it is . At the very least it begs the question of if this was a short lived assemblyline occurrence.
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So the new rules under the drive shaft state no zerk fittings or plugs. So are there originals that have these?
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So the new rules under the drive shaft state no zerk fittings or plugs. So are there originals that have these?
The MCA rules have said for a long time no zerk fittings on u-joints.
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Here is picture of U joint caps tack welded with strap. It makes sense why they would be done this way. I have seen some caps with pieces of slag on them and could not figure out what it was from. When I was told about this as a early factory installation I started to look more closely at early drive shafts and then found this driveshaft which I keep as a curiosity /reference piece. I was mistaken about the pressed in zerts as these are screw in. I don't have much back ground on this type of U joint and am just retelling what I was told by a peer I respect (John Brown) who was also present when I found this driveshaft. Here it is . At the very least it begs the question of if this was a short lived assemblyline occurrence.
Bob, I have seen this before on service replacement driveshafts also. It makes sense for the caps to be attached so they won't fall off. Would be nice to have more examples to determine if it was something unique to one plant, time period or other.
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The MCA rules have said for a long time no zerk fittings on u-joints.
Sorry I meant to say they don't allow plugs now either
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So the new rules under the drive shaft state no zerk fittings or plugs. So are there originals that have these?
The MCA rules have said for a long time no zerk fittings on u-joints.
Sorry I meant to say they don't allow plugs now either
I searched for a while trying to order a PAIR for my 67 without zerks...oh what fun it is. Yellow Boots, Blue Boots, Red Boots, Store Brand or Spicer...couldn't locate a PAIR from any single source to "match". ( I get the rule but...)
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Sorry I meant to say they don't allow plugs now either
Ah, right. Easy way around that is make sure the joint is greased well, then put a plug in the hole and grind it down smooth. Doing that, obviously, prohibits the joint from being greased in the future though.
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I searched for a while trying to order a PAIR for my 67 without zerks...oh what fun it is. Yellow Boots, Blue Boots, Red Boots, Store Brand or Spicer...couldn't locate a PAIR from any single source to "match". ( I get the rule but...)
Yes it takes a while to find what current brand of U joints have black boots and which ones do not (as well as unmarked caps) Doesn't work well ordering them doing this by mail ;)
Just one more reason to keep or scrounge originals or in this case just old ones and reuse the black boots
There use to be a brand of U joints that had the zert in one of the caps which meant that you could swap out the cap for another one and you had a no zert U joint. Only issue (but closer to the original details) was the U joint was shaped differently but it gave you a decent replacement while you looked for an original
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Well, A, C, and K...from what i've read in other posts some people swear the hipo's came with inside lock rings and some swear they were all outside lock rings...
Looked through my pictures and all of the 65-66 Mustangs I have pictures of with original U joints have outside lock rings.
Just reporting on what I found.
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Looked through my pictures and all of the 65-66 Mustangs I have pictures of with original U joints have outside lock rings.
Just reporting on what I found.
Jeff, is that pictures of 65-66 K-codes or all 65-66's?
...does that mean too that you have pictures of '66's with outside lock rings?
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Per "The 289 High Performance Mustang" by Tony Gregory (4the ed) page 70 - "HiPo shafts used the same U-joints as standard 289 cars. Before 10-5-64, U-joints with the cup retainers at the outside ends were used. After 10-5-64, the retainer snaps into the cup, near the inner end."
Jim
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Outer locks from an early Feb '65 K code San Jose convertible:
http://65kresto.blogspot.com/2009/12/122209.html
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Jeff, is that pictures of 65-66 K-codes or all 65-66's?
...does that mean too that you have pictures of '66's with outside lock rings?
Don't have any Mustang 65 K's to share but it looks like Charles has one. Have 65-66 V8's and cylinders with the outside locking rings. Looking for some of my 66 K code Mustang examples next. Wanted to respond so you didn't think I had forgotten :)
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"Looked through my pictures and all of the 65-66 Mustangs I have pictures of with original U joints have outside lock rings.
Just reporting on what I found. J. Speegle."
Jeff,
Does that go for '65-'66 6 cylinder cars too?? It looks like Gary's have the Internal Lock Rings on his 6 CYL. 'Vert...
*Also, What year did they start using both types.....?!?? And are both types both usable in the same yoke, or is each different type U-joint Yoke Specific??!??
I have always wondered these questions!
Thanks,
Tony K.
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Some findings...
I just crawled under my Dearborn '65 'vert and my Dearborn '66 'vert and both cars have the Internal Lock Ring type U-joints at both the front and rear of the cars. Both cars are 6 bangers..(6 cyl.) cars.
Maybe the 6 cyl. cars had the Internal Lock Rings and the V8 cars had the External Lock rings on '65-'66 Cars... ?!????
:o)
Tony K.
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Both of my June 65 Dearborn cars have internal locks . See the convertible pictures on the previous page.
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I'm thinking that the 6cyl cars had the internal locks.....and that the V8's could have had either internal or external locks.. because I have now seen both on the V8's, but only the internal locks on the 6 bangers..
:o)
Tony K.
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I'm thinking that the 6cyl cars had the internal locks.....and that the V8's could have had either internal or external locks.. because I have now seen both on the V8's, but only the internal locks on the 6 bangers..
We see allot of things - does not mean that it makes it original nor correct. Would not agree that V8s could have either but instead there are specific time periods and applications that would require one or the other. IMHO doubt it was a hit or miss thing at the factory where the worker wound assemble one of these and two of that style. There was a reason and and purpose.
Appears Mike's cars represent two time periods showing that very early cars (when looked at Deaarborn early production period) used the external when comparing these two time periods, applications and production plant.
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Jeff you got it backwards. The Aug 64 coupe has exter clips and the June 65 cars have inside clips.
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Jeff you got it backwards. The Aug 64 coupe has exter clips and the June 65 cars have inside clips.
Thanks Mike - corrected and added to it
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I wanted to share some findings regarding 65-66 u-joints:
First, some pictures attached. The left column are the only non-greasable ILR i've been able to find, front (top) and rear (bottom). The center column are original plugged joints. The right are later BW service joints that match Ford service joints I've seen.
Going through more ILR driveshafts, I've found several MBW (Mechanics Borg Warner) u-joints with plugs, as well as rear joints with strapped caps.
The '65 and '66 Comet/Falcon/Fairlane/Mustang shop manuals say "The universal joints are provided with a threaded plug which can be removed for lubrication when necessary." That sentence is conspicuously absent in the 67 and later shop manuals.
I found examples of the #C3AA-4868-G slip yoke for both ILR and OLR applications. Any thoughts as to why a BW-supplied driveshaft assy would have a Ford/Dana slip-yoke?
A Feb 65 San Jose C-code I looked at has inside lock rings.
A March 65 San Jose K-code I looked at has outside lock rings.
I'm just stating this, i'm not claiming anything about the OLR/ILR transition, or K-codes being all OLR.
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Interesting - Never found an original with the large bar across the center section on a San Jose car. All had the same hallowed out shape on both sides. Since many of those are marked Ford I think you may have collected some replacements rather than assembly line versions
The inclusion of the '65 and '66 Comet/Falcon/Fairlane/Mustang shop manuals may have been a mistake or a legacy from earlier versions and removed once found. Just a possibility IMHO as we try to get an handle on a very often replaced item after 50 plus years
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Jeff - Only the OLR Ford/Dana u-joints are hollowed out both sides. The Borg Warner ILR u-joints have the cross shaft, whether it was drilled out and plugged or not.
The u-joints in the left and center columns are definitely assembly line, and none of the u-joints in the pictures are marked Ford...
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Sorry bottom left corner one appears to have FORD in the bottom picture on my monitor. Shadows??
The u-joints in the left and center columns are definitely assembly line, and none of the u-joints in the pictures are marked Ford...
How can the U joint with the retainer strap be definitely assembly line since it would not have been installed with the strap? Bottom center column
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They were installed with the cap strap, at least the Borg Warner u-joints were. I agree I haven't seen any of the OLR Ford/Dana u-joints with a strap. There are assembly line examples posted earlier in this thread, and i have several examples still on driveshafts. I'll have to check in the morning but i'm pretty sure i have an ungreasable joint in a driveshaft that has the strap on it still.
The joints are cast with "9493J URD".
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They were installed with the cap strap, at least the Borg Warner u-joints were. I agree I haven't seen any of the OLR Ford/Dana u-joints with a strap. There are assembly line examples posted earlier in this thread,............
Believe you will find that the one earlier example wasn't installed in a car nor from the assembly line. The other was rebuilt, not yet used.
Kind of hard installing the U joint with the strap still in place.
Workers had to remove them (early service replacements also had them on them) before they could install them in the cars on the line. This would have been done when the yoke was installed in the driveline and placed on the dolly (with one rear strap still attached) so that it would be available to the guys in the pit as the body was lowered from above onto the waiting driveline, exhaust and rearend assembles awaiting them.
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Why is it hard to install the ujoint with the strap in place? It's not on the caps that go into the driveshaft. And why would they have to remove the strap holding the caps on? If the ujoint is installed with the strap facing forward it's not in the way of anything, and if it's facing rearward the yoke on the rear end is cast to allow for it.
In your third paragraph, are you referring to the slip yoke or the pinion yoke? And what exactly are you referring to as the driveline? I don't mean any disrespect, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Or maybe I wasn't clear that the strap was only on the 11/8" caps on the rear u-joint meant for the rear end yoke? The ujoints in the pictures I posted are front (top) and rear (bottom) sets from three driveshafts.
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Not trying to be argumentive - guess we're both limited by the written word and other challanges commuicating from afar.
Why is it hard to install the ujoint with the strap in place?
It's not on the caps that go into the driveshaft.
Guess that is where we're not seeing the others perspective. I've always had to remove the caps to install a U joint in the driveline, transmission yoke and though don't have to at the rear would remove the retaining strap from the caps so that it can be installed if I ever used some of the early replacements.
I can't install a U joint (guess just not a method I'm aware of) between the transmission yoke and driveline with the strap on. U joints are front or rear only they have different applications. On one car they might be correct for the front connection while on another the rear.
And why would they have to remove the strap holding the caps on?
If the ujoint is installed with the strap facing forward it's not in the way of anything, and if it's facing rearward the yoke on the rear end is cast to allow for it.
As said above if installing in the driveline or trans yoke I only know of methods of installation where the caps have to be removed so that the U joint can be situated between the eyes and the caps installed from the outer surface towards the U joint and seated.
In your third paragraph, are you referring to the slip yoke or the pinion yoke? And what exactly are you referring to as the driveline? I don't mean any disrespect, I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.
Red arrow - driveline Green arrow transmission yoke.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-050417180339.jpeg)
Rear end yoke
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/6/6-050417180353.jpeg)
Or maybe I wasn't clear that the strap was only on the 11/8" caps on the rear u-joint meant for the rear end yoke? The ujoints in the pictures I posted are front (top) and rear (bottom) sets from three driveshafts.
I think this is where we separated. I'm mentally comparing the NOS U joints we've seen with the straps to the pictures that your showing with the straps. But your suggesting/sharing that you believe the straps on your examples were different and for a specific location.
Yours are the first I've heard of installled with the straps left in place. We do have pictures of the rear (don't know what size but guess we could guess and look them up) of the straps being in that location prior to the installation of the driveline in the car originally. Something to "chew over " :)
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I'm sorry if you thought i meant all the u-joint caps came strapped. Just the rear caps that fit into the rear end yoke so they don't fall off the u-joint spider before final installation into the car. You can see in the picture you posted of the rear yoke how there's a casting recess where the strap ends would be when the u-joint is installed into the rear yoke.
The driveshafts were assembled (slip yoke, front u-joint, shaft, rear u-joint) and balanced at the respective manufacturers (either Borg Warner or Ford/Dana) and delivered complete ready to install at the final assembly plants, correct? I'm assuming they're assembled at different locations because everything is different between the two versions of driveshafts used in 65-66 (the two versions being inside and outside lock ring), even the balancing weights.
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Here's a few more pictures i took of u-joints:
This picture is a Borg Warner ILR joint next to a Ford/Dana OLR joint. You can kind of see the Ford oval and the Dana diamond in the center of the joint on the right. I have other examples that show the markings more clearly. Both of these are designated 1260 u-joints. The 1260 OLR u-joint was used in 65-66 for any OLR applications, and according to the MPC in '67 as well for 6 cylinder automatics and 289's except hipos.
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I don't have much to add to the discussion other than the only time I have ever seen the straps welded to the cups is on service replacement drive-shafts.
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I wonder (or believe at this juncture) that the straps were likely meant to be removed on the line (reason why we don't find the straps on original cars) but sometimes they were missed and left - the reason you've found some examples that way.
Just trying to come up with a reason and answer for what we have.
Do recall seeing service replacements with two straps and zert fitting provisions in the past.
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I wonder (or believe at this juncture) that the straps were likely meant to be removed on the line (reason why we don't find the straps on original cars) but sometimes they were missed and left - the reason you've found some examples that way.
Just trying to come up with a reason and answer for what we have.
Are there no assembly line workers still living that could answer questions like this one?
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Are there no assembly line workers still living that could answer questions like this one?
Not that I've heard of or talked to. Could likely find one that would tell us either way if you asked the questions in a leading manner but that really would not help. In general we would need to find someone that set up the line, a manager or someone specific that worked that particular station at all three plants. In general allot of employees, from the ones I've talked to, only knew what happened at a station they were assigned to, maybe what happened before and after that and normally remember the interactions between workers (factory drama) the best
Unfortunately we've lost allot of them in the last ten years