ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Shelby => Topic started by: Bossbill on October 10, 2017, 10:57:13 PM
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Finally got my window sticker from Marti and find that my car came with NO optional wheels.
Great.
So not only will the car have Lime Gold for color it will have steel wheels and hubcaps (for Concours). I guess . . .
[on edit -- the following applies to 68, not 67!]
After some K/H research I gather I need the 15x6 K/H "Kx 1" or "Kx 2" where x is most likely 2 (Windsor Ontario). So, "K2 1" or "K2 2".
And yes, it must have 3 (actually 4 for 68) nubs on the hub (for dog dish retainment).
The above dates I estimated based upon my March build date. Can the dates go further back, like to December?
Did all Shelby wheels come from Ontario or did they come from any of the 4 K/H plants?
From the SAAC site here is a typical 68 decode:
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
K2 12 (valvestem) 26 6
and in the center
12 67 Fomoco KW
K= Kelsey (Hayes)
2= Windsor Ontario plant
12= Month, December
26= Day as in 26th
6= Wheel width
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Anything else I should know?
As stated in the EDIT, this info applies to 68, not 67!
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Finally got my window sticker from Marti and find that my car came with NO optional wheels.
Great.
So not only will the car have Lime Gold for color it will have steel wheels and hubcaps (for Concours). I guess . . .
After some K/H research I gather I need the 15x6 K/H "Kx 1" or "Kx 2" where x is most likely 2 (Windsor Ontario). So, "K2 1" or "K2 2".
And yes, it must have 3 nubs on the hub (for dog dish retainment).
The above dates I estimated based upon my March build date. Can the dates go further back, like to December?
Did all Shelby wheels come from Ontario or did they come from any of the 4 K/H plants?
From the SAAC site here is a typical 67 decode:
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
K2 12 (valvestem) 26 6
and in the center
12 67 Fomoco KW
K= Kelsey (Hayes)
2= Windsor Ontario plant
12= Month, December
26= Day as in 26th
6= Wheel width
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Anything else I should know?
The shape of the center that is welded to the rim because numbers can not be read sometimes for various reasons.
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I'm back to this topic as I'm getting some conflicting information on steel wheels for 67 Shelbys.
Some say these wheels are supposed to have cat's eyes. Pic one is of a cat's eye wheel, as I understand it. I found this one on a highway light trailer!
Pic 2 is what some of the wheel guys tell me is what my car is supposed to have.
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Here is a 67 Shelby steel wheel. (http://www.saacforum.com/gallery/66-120718014820.jpeg)
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Definitely not your second picture. I suppose the guys telling you that are selling them?
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I'm back to this topic as I'm getting some conflicting information on steel wheels for 67 Shelbys.
Some say these wheels are supposed to have cat's eyes. Pic one is of a cat's eye wheel, as I understand it. I found this one on a highway light trailer!
Pic 2 is what some of the wheel guys tell me is what my car is supposed to have.
When looking at Bob's example, I would say NEITHER of the two pictures are correct. Notice the 4-gaps where the center of the wheel meets the outer ring. small vs. larger. Also, pay attention to this area and the curved nature of the inside 1-2" wide area between the dog dish lips and the outer ring of the wheel area. Some are somewhat flat while what you look for should be somewhat curved. Center hole of later Ford wheels is typically too large also. Note valve stem hole size, white wheel is large, it is wrong for that also.
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Here is a 67 Shelby steel wheel.
Thanks for the pic, Bob. That is a very good, clear picture.
Will you look at that tire!
Definitely not your second picture. I suppose the guys telling you that are selling them?
I had a major reseller/builder of steel rims tell me he has never seen a cat's eye in all the years he's been doing wheels. He offered to sell me the wrong wheel for $200 ea. saying he has a lot of Shelby customers who use his wheels.
When looking at Bob's example, I would say NEITHER of the two pictures are correct. Notice the 4-gaps where the center of the wheel meets the outer ring. small vs. larger. Also, pay attention to this area and the curved nature of the inside 1-2" wide area between the dog dish lips and the outer ring of the wheel area. Some are somewhat flat while what you look for should be somewhat curved. Center hole of later Ford wheels is typically too large also. Note valve stem hole size, white wheel is large, it is wrong for that also.
It's amazing what people will tell you when you are trying to buy wheels. I haven't had a good picture of the correct wheel until Bob posted that pic. It validates a number of things I've heard and a few things that weren't clear.
67s appear to be real oddballs in that you have to have to have the A) cat's eyes, B) the three lugs for dog caps (which K/H stopped doing in 67, so all later wheels have 4 lugs), C) the raised areas between lug nuts is quite wide, and I think the rims are welded to the centers.
For those thinking "well, at least these are cost effective", just the wheels usually cost more than repop Magstars or 10 spokes and the hubcaps are really hard to find in decent shape. I've been collecting the later and it takes quite a few sets to make one or two decent hubcaps.
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Thanks for the pic, Bob. That is a very good, clear picture.
Will you look at that tire!
Believe that is a picture I posted a number of times. Was the spare from ia GT350 in the 2000 range (thermactor 4 speed non-AC car)
Think its still wrapped up and doubled bag next to another that I found that was on (yes with the speed way tire) a 67 T bird at a pick and pull yard years ago. Unfortunately car had only one small letter speedway on it
The term "cats eyes" is often used to describe the cut outs in 65-66 shelby steel wheel.s
The wheels are out there on other model Ford products - things at often the hardest to find when you need them and when you don't you fall across them
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Yeah, I should have searched the site harder.
After searching around the 'net it appears that the few people who have them want some glorious money. I don't mind paying a fair price, but I hate getting royally hosed.
I like your idea of wrecking yards. I need to scour the many we have in this area and get down and dirty. The place I bought my parts car has some older cars and might be a good place to start.
At least now the correct wheel style has been validated.
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Hey Bill,
Just an FYI (albeit late) -- a Marti report is not the authoritative answer as to which wheels are correct for your '67 GT.
Marti obtains his information for your car from the Ford record.
As far as Ford was concerned, all '67 Shelbys received "Customer Supplied" wheels, tires and lug nuts. This is how it was written on the DSO and the SVO.
The authoritative answer as to which wheels are correct for your car lies in the Shelby paperwork, specifically the Production Order and/or the Invoice if you have one. Hopefully you have one or both of these documents.
If neither piece of paper exists for your car, stay tuned as this is one of the more aggressive projects we're working on.
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Hi Brian -- I've gone through the DSO database which lists all cars and the major equipment on each and mine is listed as a hubcap car. Not definitive, but ...
My dealer invoice lists nothing about additional wheels.
By now I hope it's a hubcap car as I've source about 20 hubcaps in various states. From those I can make 4 really, really nice originals. I managed to get one absolutely brand new T-bird variety, never been on the car condition and still in the Ford box. It's gorgeous.
I've shown the caps to various Mustang and Shelby guys and they come away agreeing that these things are just cool.
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Hey Bill,
By "DSO Database" do you mean Roy Simkin's "DSO Project?"
Bear in mind that Roy's priceless contribution to the online world is 100% based on the information scraped from the printed 2011 SAAC Registry.
The registry has errors, and during the scraping process, Roy has introduced even more errors.
As you probably have seen, I've been working hard to identify these discrepancies over at the www.1967shelbyresearch.com group and have been communicating with both Dave and Roy to make sure that the near future will hold 100% verification between the published sources.
Regardless, if your car is not one of the first couple hundred cars built (which all received Mag Stars), and the car's SAI Invoice does not have an itemized charge for Deluxe or Shelby wheels, then it's a pretty safe bet that your car had Steel wheels fitted at San Jose and left SAI the same way.
So, is your car a radio-equipped car or a non-radio car?
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Brian,
It's the DSO listing at techent.
I forgot to mention I have the SAI invoice for my car which lists no wheels either.
Interestingly it doesn't list extra cooling and some other items that the Marti does, but does list the AM radio, which the Marti doesn't.
4 Gals of gas for $1.20 !
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Bill,
The production order sheet for my 67, #1317 says Stockton-Quincy Ford, Westwood, Calif.
model # 67 402 F7A, Shelby Seral # 01317, Key number, Completion Date and when order was received.
Below it says,
OPTIONAL EQUIPMENT
Wheels Standard Shelby Other Radio Other
XX Pico Rivera Inventory
Have you checked with Dave if SAAC has this sheet for your car?
Texas Swede
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Brian,
It's the DSO listing at techent.
I forgot to mention I have the SAI invoice for my car which lists no wheels either.
Interestingly it doesn't list extra cooling and some other items that the Marti does, but does list the AM radio, which the Marti doesn't.
4 Gals of gas for $1.20 !
Yes, the s-techent domain is Roy Simkins' DSO Project (one-in-the-same).
Again, the Marti report is taken from the Ford record.
All Shelbys received the Extra Cooling Package.
They need not have been ordered (DSO) with that line item, nor would the Ford record necessarily reflect that item, because the ECP sub-components may have been part of another core component.
Case-and-point: cars with Air Conditioning would have automatically received the components found in the ECP package (radiator, cooling fan, fan shroud), so there was no need to specifically itemize the ECP on the orders.
As far as the AM radio goes, if it's not listed on the Marti (ford record), then it wasn't installed at San Jose. The fact that it's listed on your Invoice means that it was added to the car by SAI at LAX.
I'll create a post on the ECP topic over at www.1967shelbyresearch.com if you'd like to discuss and not further hijack this wheel thread (sorry.)
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Bill,
The production order sheet for my 67, #1317 says Stockton-Quincy Ford, Westwood, Calif.
model # 67 402 F7A, Shelby Seral # 01317, Key number, Completion Date and when order was received.
Below it says,
OPTIONAL EQUIPMENT
Wheels Standard Shelby Other Radio Other
XX Pico Rivera Inventory
Have you checked with Dave if SAAC has this sheet for your car?
Texas Swede
A "XX" in the Standard wheel box is for steel wheels.
It's worth noting that I have seen some Production Orders that had no wheel boxes marked, and in those cases I feel standard wheels would be the logical assumption as to how the cars were built and left SAI.
Also worth noting that per what you posted from your car's Production Order, it appears that #1317 should not have a radio.
BTW, could you tell me the Ford Dealer Code and full address for Stockton Quincy? It's on your Marti Report. I track 8 cars sold through that dealership, but I do not have their full information...
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I moved references to radio here: http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=12429.0
I guess I just stored a bunch of paperwork without really digging into the order of things.
My SAI production order lists Standard Wheels with a "XX", typed out. A hand written 'X' with circle surrounding has been added to the radio option box.. See referenced radio thread for more on that.
So it makes sense that the SAI Vehicle Invoice would not list Magstar or 10 spoke wheels; ditto for the Window sticker.
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Brian,
The Marti Report says:
Order Type Retail
DSO Item # 5811 (This number also appears in the Shelby Production Order typed just below the Shelby Serial #)
Dealer 71B023
Stockton Quincy Ford Inc
1522 Westwood Blvd
Los Angeles, CA
Texas Swede
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Ok, back to wheels. Trying not to drive the wheels off this topic.
This post: http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=20509.msg132345#msg132345
offers a Dearborn unrestored K with the competition suspension. Those are really rare cars much less with the competition suspension. The picture of the spare tire was really interesting and that's the point of this post.
(https://i.ibb.co/sv8fhPd/image1.jpg)
Since this image links to an external site I hope the poster doesn't care if I copy it (see attach) in case it does the disappearing act. We know all about that ...
Here is the picture of a 67-only Shelby wheel from page 1 of this post and we will compare it to the K-code's subject wheel.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16735.0;attach=48451;image)
They are both marked KW (Kelsey Wheel) and have the FoMoCo in an oval in red item C.
They are also three nub as noted by red item B. Three nub is only used 67 or earlier. 68 on up wheels have 4 nubs.
What the subject wheel appears to be missing is a month on one of the other item 'C's and a day on the other.
The subject wheel is also missing the cat's eyes of item A. The wheel is a solid disc all the way around. Do note I've seen the backside of a few of these in T-Birds of the same year and you will sometimes see a slight amount of daylight where the cat's eyes should be, but the slit is extremely small and doesn't really merit being called a cat's eye.
That's all I can tell from just photos as I can't verify the offset or the rim width.
[On edit -- The wheel on the K-code car are now called the 'subject' wheel, not 'comp']
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In your upper picture directly above it shows what appears to be what I've found on 65-67 T-Birds. Have a 67 dated one outside. Will grab one and take some pictures of it to continue the discussion.
I've never been able to see through or around the edges of the center on one cut outs (semicircles) appear to be 3/8" or more from the face.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-190919014352.jpeg)
Will get the 67 original spare from a Shelby down out off the shelf for some additional close up and details of that one also.
Here is a picture of one of five on a 67 Dearborn built fastback with comp suspension that was restored a few years back that did very well. Appears to be a match for the one from my past car.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-190919011959.jpeg)
Unfortunately on the last comp suspension car I took pictures of the owner was not around so didn't get any pictures of the spare (had wheel covers on all the other wheels) and the one I owned I never really paid attention to the factory wheel. ::) in the late 80's- early 90's
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A comparison would be great.
I should mention that the comparison I was making was to the OP's wheel. This shouldn't be taken to mean all competition wheels are or are not of this style.
The wheel vendors normally do list the "no cat's eye wheel" as a T-bird wheel, but I don't have the data to support a conclusion.
Looking forward to the pics!
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Went out and located one of each (67 Shelby and 67 T Bird wheel)
Here's a comparison for the major details. Checked both wheels - Both made by the same supplier - and neither had any dates on the rim or centers other that the large 67 on the face of the center section. Earlier wheels you can often find size and dating on the rim section. On later ones you can also often find a date (depending on year and supplier) dates on the rim and centers - sometimes coded
Center markings on the face (nothing found on the backside)
Year - 67
KW - Supplier
Ford in oval
Month (number of month) -(arrow)
Also notice that location of each is in a different order around and between the lug nut openings
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-190919154145.jpeg)
Back side of center. Both were spot welded rather than rivet or edge welded like other years and wheels. Openings or non openings are shaped and cut differently. Comp and Shelby wheels have a larger and wider opening while T Bird cut outs and shape do not create a very visible opening if at all. On the one I took pictures of. Liquid poured on the area flowed through in short time (little or not light would pass through before test) while some held the liquid for 3-5 minutes before seeping through
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-190919154205.jpeg)
Openings from the face side
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-190919154230.jpeg)
Not very clear but this may be a picture of a comp/Shelby wheel from the late 60's. Appears that there is a visible gap as expected in the 4-5 o'clock area of the wheel
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-190919154251.jpeg)
In going through my collection of pictures (yes slightly off thread ::) it was interesting to see that the car that was used as the prototype for the 67 GT500 appears to have not had the competition suspension or at least not the wheel and tires that came with the package.
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Referring to your pic:
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-190919154145.jpeg)
I believe the arrow points to a month.
The other wheel you have here:
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-190919011959.jpeg)
has a 5 for a "date". I have two Comp wheels of 1. I have another date too, but would have to drag out the wheel as I forget what it was.
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Referring to your pic:
I believe the arrow points to a month.
Changed the wording above to leave room for discussion and discovery. :)
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I went and looked at another comp wheel in the shop and it's a "6" "67".
I have a pic from Vernon E. and his comp wheel has "12" "66" on it.
Just more data points. What an adventure just learning about these wheels!
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I went and looked at another comp wheel in the shop and it's a "6" "67".
I have a pic from Vernon E. and his comp wheel has "12" "66" on it.
With those data points I believe we have confirmation that the number is the month
Just for reference the one in my post above - the 3/67 is from a 67 GT350 finished at San Jose on 5/17/67 according to records
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Did some editing and came up with a decent enough picture of the December center. Due to roundness of the surface the FoMoCo/oval does not always stamp well.
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For what is worth here is a picture of our 12-02 67 1968 GT350 spare.
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And it has a date of "12 67".
The differences with the 67 model year wheel are:
-- There are also codes around the valve stem introduced in 68.
-- There are 4 hubcap nubs as model year 68 introduced that.
-- The cat's eye area is now more of 'D' shape -- not a cat's eye anymore.
There are also codes in the area between the beads (area inside of tire) on both years if I remember correctly.
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For what is worth here is a picture of our 12-02 67 1968 GT350 spare.
Is that the one that is supposed to have small letters tires on it. ::)
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Is that the one that is supposed to have small letters tires on it. ::)
Oh boy I wonder how that happened! :'( I never thought about it just had it mounted yesterday.
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I normally would not have much input on this subject, but I do have a low mile 67 Tbird. I recently had the spare wheel powder coated. Looks like it confirms what was posted here. Photo attached.
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I normally would not have much input on this subject, but I do have a low mile 67 Tbird. I recently had the spare wheel powder coated. Looks like it confirms what was posted here. Photo attached.
Looks like "2" "67". Does that match the build date of the Tbird -- maybe a month or so earlier?
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I've seen wheels listed with a specific wheel code in various ads and one of them got my interest.
The "Competition Wheel" is always a 15x6. After the 15x6 stamp, which is usually written as " 1 5 x 6", is usually the code "JK", written as " J K".
This code, it turns out, is an SAE designation for the bead profile. Bead profile is the width, height and radius of the outer portion of the rim (see pic).
The bead profile is listed in SAE papers and can be J, JJ, JK as well as many other codes. "J" is today's most popular bead profile.