ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: C5ZZKGT on November 27, 2012, 05:54:20 AM
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My repro Group 24F Autolite battery that was purchased by my restorer from Antique Auto battery in Ohio has started to fail.
I called AAB to check on any warranty, I have no paperwork on the battery because my restorer bought it.
They said I'd need to produce some type of paperwork to procede with any possible warranty issues.
I certainly understand that BUT:
It was found earlier in my car's restoration that you CANNOT jump-start these batteries (these are the dry batteries that some say are Optimas inside) due to some type of electricial device.
We also have a Chevy battery from AAB that WE bought in 2005 and have kept it on a tender ever since when not driving the car, which hasn't been much-the battery appears perfect.
The Autolite repro has been kept on a tender, but admitedly not as regular.
NOW AAB tells me that you should NOT use a tender on "these" batteries.
They also told me how to try & "reset" the battery by specificly discharging it to 7 volts and re-charging from there at specific rates.
If we can't use a jump start, or use a tender on these batteries what the heck can we do to preserve them when not in use?
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I bought a BatteryMinder. Check out the website:
http://batteryminders.com/static_page.php?nick=faq
And read the part about sulfation.
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I bought a BatteryMinder. Check out the website:
http://batteryminders.com/static_page.php?nick=faq
And read the part about sulfation.
The batteries I'm refering to are NOT lead/acid, they are DRY batteries that I believe are Optimas inside the vintage-looking case.
I don't know what the right answer is, I just know what MY experiance has been with my 2
I can't see why a tender would hurt any battery-I CAN see how a jump-box or jumping from anouther vehicle could damage some sort of electricial device whatever that is, it can't be that darn secret can it??
Why does it take this special device to make the battery work? why can't they just put an Optima (IF thats what it is) inside the vintage-looking case and be done with it? can a regulation Optima NOT be jumped?
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There's allot of good information on the website. Here's a quote:
Starter Battery - Sealed Gelled, AGM, or Dry (no filler caps -electrolyte is "non liquid")
Much more expensive than non-sealed liquid type.
Can be operated in any position without risk of spilling.
Have a lower rate of self-discharge than non-sealed maintenance and/or maintenance-free (liquid) batteries.
Are considerably more sensitive to overcharging and self-discharge, which can cause serious damage and shortened battery life.
Recommended for applications where little or no checking and/or maintenance can easily be performed.
TIP 8: Consider the potential benefits vs. cost of these types before making a buying decision.
TIP 9: Check the output of your alternator/generator-voltage regulator settings before replacing your standard liquid type battery with any non-liquid sealed type to be sure your charging system does not overcharge it.
TIP 10: Never allow a sealed "non-liquid" battery to self-discharge below 11.5 volts or permanent damage can occur. Special charging equipment and/or procedures may be needed to recover sealed batteries that have been allowed to self-discharge below 11.5 volts.
TIP 11: To prevent self-discharge during periods of non-use/storage, maintain your battery using a constant voltage type charger with end of charge to prevent over / under charge.
TIP 12: Always use an accurate digital voltmeter or similar device to determine your sealed batteries true state-of-charge. Remember to let your battery "Rest" for 12 hours or longer before testing its voltage.
TIP 13: Knowing the exact voltage of your battery can help you to accurately determine it's state-of-health.
Voltages and Specific Gravity (s.g.) of battery at various levels of charge:
Voltage S.G. Capacity
12.6 - 12.8 1.265 s.g. = 100% Charged
12.4 - 12.6 1.225 s.g. = 75% - 100%
12.2 - 12.4 1.190 s.g. = 50% - 75%
12.0 - 12.2 1.155 s.g. = 25% - 50%
11.7 - 12.0 1.120 s.g. = 0% - 25%
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I can tell by the characteristics you guys describe above, the guts of these batteries are most-likely NiCd, or NiCad's. For eons we used these in our high-dollar RC aircraft. The stakes were pretty high so there was a large demand for chargers with a BRAIN!
Using these without problems required a pretty deep knowledge of their "personality" and how to keep them happy. It seems to me, that if these repops are indeed NiCd based, the charging system when the engine is running and the system when the car is parked, must both have a brain. The brain has 4 tasks to handle.
* Detect/Know the current state of charge before any current is allowed to go in
* Charge at no faster than the rate of C/10 until very near full capacity and case temperature rises slightly
* Automatically switch to the trickle rate of C/50 at any time the battery is full or very near full.
* Never let the battery be discharged below a critical voltage? (on RC aircraft, that was 1.1 VDC per cell)
The brain most RC'ers used was called an ACE Digipace. When you came home from a day of flying, you connect your batteries and activate the digipace. It would apply an appropriate load and start a timer. When only 1.1 VDC per cell was reached, the timer stopped counting. THIS ESTABLISHED THE STATE OF CHARGE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CYCLE, AND IT ESTABLISHED A 1.1 PER CELL BASELINE BEFORE FILLUP.
Then it automatically switched to C/10 charge rate and when it detected a decrease in current flow into the batteries, (this corresponds with a rise in battery temperature) it would switch to C/50.
IF YOU EVER USED THE BATTERIES DOWN BELOW 1.1 VDC PER CELL, YOU RAN THE RISK THAT 1 OR MORE CELLS WOULD REVERSE POLARITY AND THE PACK WOULD BE RUINED. ALSO IF YOU EVER CHARGED AT C/10 FOR ANY APPRECIABLE LENGTH OF TIME AFTER THE PACK WAS FULL, YOU RISKED RUINING IT.
(http://images.rcuniverse.com/market/itemimages/Jun/lg-883616-0-3557.jpg)
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Thanks for this very useful info Bryan!
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Glad to present what I know. Not too often do I know anything to present!
Oh ...I forgot to mention M E M O R Y...If you didn't have a Digipace, and you had your batteries full charged before going flying every time, and if for instance you usually only flew enough to use 30% of the charge, a bad problem would crop up.
Let's say you used 30% and recharged 50 times in the course of a year. If then one day you flew A LOT, when you got below that 30% point, voltage would fall off very fast to dead, and you'd crash. That's NiCd memory.
The Digipace kept that memory from forming by deep-discharging the batteries after every weekend of flying.
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If the battery that we're talking about is an Optima, I believe that's a different technology than NiCd.
Optima batteries are AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) type of batteries. The sulfuric acid and electrolyte are tightly wound in the mat.
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/electrical/optima-batteries.jsp?intcmp=..
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Here's a tip from Hot Rod magazine: Tie a couple of batteries in parallel and bring the one that won't take a charge up to an acceptable baseline where it'll then take a charge on its own.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/general/hrdp_1009_how_to_charge_a_agm_battery/viewall.html
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If the battery that we're talking about is an Optima, I believe that's a different technology than NiCd.
Optima batteries are AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) type of batteries. The sulfuric acid and electrolyte are tightly wound in the mat.
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/electrical/optima-batteries.jsp?intcmp=..
If that's the case, then disregard my NiCd discussions. It just sounded like the info was pointing toward NiCd's.
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I've been following this thread for awhile now and have read some interesting, albeit misguided information regarding batteries in general. I have a few questions/comments about the original post though. After reading a thread posted elsewhere today by the OP, you stated your resto was done 4 years ago. Why would you look any further into a warranty on your battery? The AAB website clearly states their batteries are warrantied for 4 years. Do you know which version of battery your restorer purchased from AAB? They offered Autolite group 24 batteries in standard lead/acid and now in AGM ("maintenance free"), versions. Just to be clear though, BOTH are lead/acid batteries.
The standard life of a lead/acid battery is 3 years...period. Batteries are offered for "longer life" than this, but all you are actually paying for is a warranty (prorated no less!) which covers a greater period. Some batteries last less time, and are cheaper, due to being constructed of cheaper materials. Before anyone pipes up and posts about their battery lasting X number of years longer, you're absolutely correct. I have the factory original Motorcraft battery in my truck that's now 11 years old. ANY time after 3 years is simply "borrowed time". It's been helped along though through proper maintenance.
Now to clarify a few myths. AGM batteries ARE lead/acid batteries. They have lead plates and are filled with sulfuric acid as the electrolyte. Some of the differences between them and a standard lead/acid battery are:
1) There is less acid in an AGM battery
2) AGM batteries are not free venting. This is notable for restored cars because there is less corrosive vapors emanating from the battery which could cause damage/corrosion. Take note I said LESS venting. AGM batteries have a vent and DO vent. The vent is a one way pressure relief design though, as opposed to a "free air" vent in a standard lead/acid battery. If a lead/acid battery was not vented it would develop enough gas pressure from recharging to rupture the case. AGM's vent VERY little though due to the design and amount of acid in them.
3) AGM batteries are less prone to failure due to shock (physical not electrical), and vibration.
The discharge rates of standard and AGM batteries is very similar. The RECHARGE rates are different though, with a greater recharge period required for an AGM. They CAN be recharged, they CAN be kept on a float charger and they CAN be jumped. There are no magic hocus pocus electronics inside them either. I've read through some of the claims that manufacturers make regarding their products, batteries and chargers alike. Optima claims up to 5x greater battery life. Over what?! A cheap battery? Sure, they use better materials. Battery chargers can vary, but it's in how much and how high a charge rate is delivered and over what duration. Reading through some claims is like reading a snake oil bottle. If you know about batteries and the chemistry involved you can quickly read through the contradictions or "better than" claims in order to see they are functioning as any good charger (constant or float), should.
A VERY basic explanation of how a lead/acid battery works is as follows; lead plates are suspended in a non-conductive acid proof case. There are two sets of plates with non-conductive separators between them. One set of plates is the anode and the other the cathode (positive and negative sides). The lead is not a plain piece of lead. It's a specific type of porous lead known as sponge lead. The electrolyte is sulfuric acid (H2SO4). The chemical reaction between the electrolyte and the lead plates creates an electrical charge (voltage). As the charge is created and used, the resulting reaction (basically) draws the acid out of solution and into the plates. If you were to measure the pH of new sulfuric acid and then compare it to a fully discharged battery, you would see a lower pH in the the discharged battery. That's because your reading (again, basically), is water. When the battery is charging the electrical input TO the plates forces the acids back into solution. Basically it "mixes, if you will, the acid back into the water. A byproduct of this charging reaction is the formation of gas, hydrogen gas to be more specific, and vaporization of some of the water. When the water is vaporized through charging, there is less "solution" for the acids to be forced back into and it remains in the plates. That's why after initially filling a new (non-AGM) battery with sulfuric acid you only top it back up with straight water. You are replacing what was lost....water. Through time salts will remain on/in the plates. This is what sulfation is. It is also UNAVOIDABLE. PREMATURE sulfation can be avoided with proper maintenance. AGM batteries are not as prone to it either due to their design/construction. The other thing that eventually kills a battery is deterioration of the lead plates. As they deteriorate through use/time they slowly break down, forming a lead "sludge" (for lack of a better term), in the bottom of the case. This "sludge" can build to the point it comes in contact with the bottoms of the suspended plates. The plates are then shorted out, effectively "killing" that cell. That, in a nutshell, is a VERY simplistic explanation of how a lead/acid battery functions.
Another thing I'd like to mention is charging. Fast charging is harmful to the life of a battery.....ANY battery. It increases the chemically induced deterioration of the battery. It also boils off the electrolyte. This is HIGHLY critical in an AGM battery due to it having less electrolyte in it. Keep in mind also it increases the formation of gas...hydrogen gas. Which is, if you remember your high school chemistry class, HIGHLY explosive! With a charger attached via clamps, NEVER remove the clamps from the battery before unplugging the charger first. The resulting spark could ignite any hydrogen gas lingering. Prolonged constant charging can also force the battery into a thermal runaway. Charging causes an exothermic reaction, e.g. generates heat. Just feel the sides of a charging battery. Lead/acid batteries are not as sensitive to it as Ni-Cad batteries are during charge/discharge, but it something to monitor. Again, this is a bad thing, not only for the life of the battery but also for safety. It should be mentioned, always check the fluid levels PRIOR to charging. After charging and a brief cool down period, check and service again if necessary. If a proper charge rate was applied, you should have minimal fluid loss though. Always service with distilled water to avoid chemical/mineral contamination of the electrolyte.
Also worth mentioning is "maintenance free" batteries (excluding AGM or Gel types). Bottom line, they AREN'T! They are free venting just like "normal" lead/acid" batteries. They require the electrolyte to be brought back up. No caps you say? Wrong! If you ever examine the tops of them you'll see a very thin line in a rectangular shape. This is a cover plate that is snapped onto the top. It is removable and will reveal access to the cells. Some cover recessed individual caps for each cell and some have molded on "plugs" along the length for each cell. Simply service the battery and snap the cover back in place. There are a few brands/models that are molded closed and are truly NOT serviceable, but most are.
I know this was a lengthy post, but I felt it was subject that needed to be clarified. If you're interested in HOW an AGM is constructed and chemically reacts (slightly) different than a regular lead/acid battery, just Google AGM battery. Don't go to a manufacturer's page, but a straight reference page. You avoid all the "claims" this way for a truer explanation. I hesitate to mention Wikipedia because some folks feel it's primarily hogwash. There are many reliable reference sites though.
BTW, I spent 15 years as an aviation electrician. Not only did we maintain the electrical systems, but we had to maintain all of the power sources, including batteries (lead/acid and NiCad). As such we received formal training in their construction, maintenance and function. If there's any furthr questions regarding this subject that I can help with, please feel free to ask. If I can provide an answer I'd be happy to help.
p.s. To the OP, it sounds like it's time for a new battery, plain and simple!
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Thanks for the detailed explanation!
Can you talk about sulfation a little more. I understand the effects can be reversed by the use of a "smart charger" that uses electronic pulse.
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Yes, Thank you JK for the in-depth explanation.
I was just asking about the warranty, didn't really think there could be much left if any.
I have a local contact that is able to successfully open and then re-seal batteries in general, I am in talks with them to open up my current Autolite repro battery and see just exactly what IS inside, and hopefully put something else in there cheaper that buying a new repro battery.
I' m thinking possibly a group 22F battery will fit inside the group 24F case but not 100% positive.
-Some folks are thinking/saying there is a small electric wheelchair battery inside the AAB battery which IS a DEEP CYCLE unit.....
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Excellent explanation and some great answers to clarify what may or may not be a good product, but -
The standard life of a lead/acid battery is 3 years...period.
The battery on my 1999 Ford E250 lasted over 11 years. It was factory installed. As to foreign cars, my neighbor replaced the factory battery in his 2003 Hyundai a couple of weeks ago only because it was over 10 years old and he had the money. I would assume that many other "long lived battery" tales exist. On the other hand, of all the repro Autolite red top batteries I've had over the last 25 years installed in my four Mustangs, they pretty much all died after about five years. I currently use what will fit.
Jim
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JKWilson has it right. Don't charge the battery with too much current or too high of a voltage or for too long. If I remember correctly the AAB recommends no higher then 14.4V and max of 10 A. This is why they dont recommend jump starting, to much current. Also temperature is important. At high temperatures you need to reduce your charging voltage. Don't drain the battery to low and dont leave a battery sit that isn't fully charged. All these things will keep your battery from failing early.
As far as float chargers I am still not 100% sure of the best method and if the best method worth it. It is my understanding that a float charger is good in that it will prevent an unused battery from self discharging. The float voltage has to be low enough that the battery takes almost no current so that it doesn't gas off. However at this float voltage there is insufficient current flow for a good chemical reaction in the battery and that the battery may not truly be fully charged. A better method would be to occasionally switch to a higher charging voltage to allow for higher current flow for some period of time and then go back to a float charge. This is where some chargers claim to "pulse" batteries. I am not sure what pulse duration they use but I think pulse times could vary from as long as 2 or 3 hours to as short as 10 seconds. Really I think you can do the same thing with a cheap float charger by starting your car and letting it run for an hour once every two or three weeks. Not really sure how much extra time any of this buys you. Batteries just dont seem to last as long as they should, I would guess the average battery life is 3-5 years.
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Thanks for the detailed explanation!
Can you talk about sulfation a little more. I understand the effects can be reversed by the use of a "smart charger" that uses electronic pulse.
In the most basic sense, sulfation is the natural end result of the battery discharging. Although my explanation of a lead/acid battery was lengthy (shooting for understatement of the year award here!), it was still very basic. The plates are, as I stated, sponge lead. More specifically, the cathode plate (negative) is sponge lead. The anode plate is coated with a lead paste (I admittedly mix up the anode/cathode plates, so I may have it backwards). The chemical transfer between the two causes lead sulfates to form. Picture a powdery substance forming on the plates. leaving behind the previously described water portion of the electrolyte. This powdery substance can be referred to as sulfation. When the battery is charged it forces the sulfates back into solution, basically. As time passes this sulfation can began to form into a more solid crystalline structure. Do it's more solid mass it becomes more difficult to force it back into solution. This is what the battery charger manufacturers are claiming that "theirs" will avoid. With a proper float charging sequence applied they ALL prevent this from occurring as quickly. I say "as quickly" because NONE prevent it totally from occurring. They just delay the inevitable basically. If you examine various float chargers and read their descriptions, pretty much all of them have the best charger for helping "prevent" this and their technology is patented. If you want a more in depth chemistry explanation, Google "sulfation" and "lead sulfate". There are several very indepth treatise's on the web from chemical engineers and chemists. I'd suggest skipping anything from charger or battery manufacturers. They're trying to sell you something. The engineers and chemists have offer a more honest (IMHO), explanation, though pretty detailed and more technical.
Excellent explanation and some great answers to clarify what may or may not be a good product, but - The battery on my 1999 Ford E250 lasted over 11 years. It was factory installed. As to foreign cars, my neighbor replaced the factory battery in his 2003 Hyundai a couple of weeks ago only because it was over 10 years old and he had the money. I would assume that many other "long lived battery" tales exist. On the other hand, of all the repro Autolite red top batteries I've had over the last 25 years installed in my four Mustangs, they pretty much all died after about five years. I currently use what will fit.
Jim
Those factory Motorcraft batteries (with proper care), are GREAT, aren't they?! The fact that many folks do get rather lengthy service out of a battery is exactly why I included that little "disclaimer". They're like a lot of products; they have a given"standard" life rating, but many more years of service can be had out of a good quality, well maintained product. Heck, I have a microwave that's over 27 years old and still working great (though my mother has me beat with hers, almost 40 years old and still working fine!).
So with all this said, are the newer(5 yrs old or less) Reproduction Autolite Sta-ful batteries, "maintenance free"(and I'm assuming maintenance free means not having to add water nor anything to the battery),maintenance free, AGM or both? and can they be trickle charged?...I've read this post by jkwilson and still a little confused.
I'd say mine is maintenance free because when you remove(unscrew) one of the red tops off the battery,there's nothing under it but more plastic....Thanks alot for any information.
It's my understanding that they are indeed AGM. I know that Virginia Classic Mustang specifically lists the one they offer as AGM. I believe the one they sell is made by AAB. The term "maintenance free" has gotten a little confusing with the advent of AGM batteries (and gel batteries too), coming on the market in recent years. If you see AGM or Gel in the description (you WILL see that listed as the manufacturers are proud of it....and the cost reflects too!), they are TRUE "maintenance free" batteries. If you see "maintenance free" and DON'T see AGM or Gel listed anywhere in it's description, it's an old style that I previously described with the removable cover strip for cell access.
AGM batteries can be trickle (or "float), charged. Due to differences in design and some REALLY geeky chemical reaction differences they do have different criteria to watch when charging. These criteria involve charge rates, charging duration and minimum battery voltage limitations for charging. If they get to certain levels they require a different approach to bring them back up.
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I've done some research and would like to post my findings (although the length may exceed your's JK :)). I wonder if you wouldn't mind commenting on it to make sure I'm correct in my understanding.
If a battery is in use, it’s being discharged. And if a battery is sitting idle it is discharging. Sulfation is a by-product of the battery discharging. After a battery discharges, it must be recharged. During recharge, the lead sulfate is reconverted into lead active material and the sulfate returned to the electrolyte. But in order to reverse the sulfation completely, the battery must be recharged completely - to 100%.
If a battery is used infrequently, and then used only for short periods, a 100% charge does not occur and hardened sulfate begins to form. Hardened sulfate also forms in a battery that is constantly being cycled in the middle of its capacity range (somewhere between 80% charged and 80% discharged), and is never recharged to 100%. Most charging sources, engine alternators and battery chargers, are voltage regulated. Their charging current is controlled by the battery's state of charge (SoC). During charging, battery voltage rises until it meets the charger's regulated voltage, lowering the current output along the way. But charging by virtue of voltage measurement is somewhat inaccurate and does not give a true reading of the SoC of a battery. The SoC is also depended upon temperature. A battery voltage of 12.45 volts at 70 degrees is at a different SoC than a battery of the same voltage at 90 degrees. A temperature compensated hydrometer is a more accurate measure of charge, but is somewhat less convenient and only works on wet-cell batteries.
The fully charged specific gravity of a wet-cell battery is 1.270. However, specific gravity cannot be measured on a sealed AGM battery, and a voltage measurement of 12.9 – 13.1 volts is the only way to determine a 100% SoC.
Temperature and/or hard sulfate can make a battery show a false voltage, higher than its true voltage, fooling the voltage regulator into thinking that the battery is fully charged. This causes the charger to prematurely lower its current output, leaving the battery discharged – which propagates additional sulfation. Periodic charging at a higher than normal voltage and low current may be necessary to break down the hardened sulfate.
This controlled charging at higher than normal voltage is called “Equalization”. By equalizing the battery in this controlled overcharge the sulphate coating, is blown off, thereby rejuvenating the battery and allowing all the surface area of the plates to interact with the electrolyte. It also causes the electrolyte to bubble and in wet cell batteries this mixes up the acid and distributes it evenly throughout the cell.
During equalization, the battery should be charged from an outside source at 2.6 to 2.7 - volts per cell (approximately 15.5 volts) and a low current rate (approximately 5 Amps for small batteries and 10-Amps for larger ones) until the specific gravity of the electrolyte starts to rise. (This indicates that the sulfate is breaking down.) Be careful not to let the internal temperature of the battery rise above 125° F. If it does, turn the charger off and let the battery cool. Then, continue charging until each cell in the battery is brought up to full charge (nominal 1.265 specific gravity or higher) or the specific gravity no longer rises..The time needed to complete this recharge depends on how long the battery has been discharged and how hard the sulfate has become.
Although AGM batteries self discharge at a rate 1/5th of conventional flooded batteries, they too will sulfate. And equalizing AGM and other sealed batteries is a bit more tricky. The bubbling electrolyte results in some loss; electrolyte vapor exits the vent caps. However because there is no way to replace the lost electrolyte it is obvious that a different strategy is required. To apply a conditioning charge, first go through the normal charge cycle to bring the battery to full charge. The conditioning charge should then be applied by charging for several hours. At 77°F (25°C), the conditioning voltage should be held to a range of 2.3 to 2.6V per cell (13.8 – 15.6 volts for a 12 volt battery) and the current allowed to vary (electronic pulse). Temperature should be monitored to make sure the battery doesn’t get too warm and cause electrolyte to escape. Some chargers are equipped with selectable settings depending upon whether the battery is a Flooded, Gel, or AGM type – and have temperature sensors that can vary the charge depending upon the type and temperature of the battery.
Once the battery is fully charged, a float charge can be applied. During this phase, the charging voltage is reduced to typically 12.8V to 13.2V (about 2.2V per cell @ 77°F), and held constant at this value to obtain and maintain a fully charged battery state. A temperature sensor feedback to the charger may also be necessary during float charging. As temperatures decrease, voltage may need to increase in order to maintain a full SoC. The effects of temperature and voltage may also differ according to battery type. If a float charger is of a constant voltage type, and the temperature of the area where the battery is charged in is allowed to vary, then it may mean that the battery is being over-charged as temperatures rise and undercharged as temperatures fall. This may lead to the loss of electrolyte if over-charged significantly, or the loss of a full SoC and the resulting sulfation if undercharged for extended periods.
A good charger should have settings for different battery types, voltages and charge functions. As well as a temperature sensor, if charging is not done in a controlled temperature area.
sorry for the length :(
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You could take the dieing battery dump the acid and neutralize it. Then cut open the bottom remove the lead plates and reseal the case. Use this for shows. I run a Auto parts store brand that is the sealed type with the Autolite topper on it for driving. Just a thought
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It's my understanding that they are indeed AGM. I know that Virginia Classic Mustang specifically lists the one they offer as AGM. I believe the one they sell is made by AAB. The term "maintenance free" has gotten a little confusing with the advent of AGM batteries (and gel batteries too), coming on the market in recent years. If you see AGM or Gel in the description (you WILL see that listed as the manufacturers are proud of it....and the cost reflects too!), they are TRUE "maintenance free" batteries. If you see "maintenance free" and DON'T see AGM or Gel listed anywhere in it's description, it's an old style that I previously described with the removable cover strip for cell access.
AGM batteries can be trickle (or "float), charged. Due to differences in design and some REALLY geeky chemical reaction differences they do have different criteria to watch when charging. These criteria involve charge rates, charging duration and minimum battery voltage limitations for charging. If they get to certain levels they require a different approach to bring them back up.
JKWilson,,,How can I tell from looking at the battery if it is indeed an AGM battery? I usually keep all my receipts and paperwork to my Mustang, but, for some reason I can't find my receipt for the battery. I know I did spend over $300 for the battery...Any help would be appreciated.
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JKWilson,,,How can I tell from looking at the battery if it is indeed an AGM battery? I usually keep all my receipts and paperwork to my Mustang, but, for some reason I can't find my receipt for the battery. I know I did spend over $300 for the battery...Any help would be appreciated.
IIRC, the standard lead/acid battery they sold was cheaper. Brant may be able to chime in and help confirm what you have for sure.
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You could take the dieing battery dump the acid and neutralize it. Then cut open the bottom remove the lead plates and reseal the case. Use this for shows. I run a Auto parts store brand that is the sealed type with the Autolite topper on it for driving. Just a thought
I've got a sealed AUTOLITE battery I'm think of gutting and putting a smaller sealed battery inside (run some cables from the new battery to the bottom of the post on the shell. Only got about three uses on the AUTOLITE. Somehow over charged it???
Should be an interesting attempt but little at stake at this point ;)
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My repro Group 24F Autolite battery that was purchased by my restorer from Antique Auto battery in Ohio has started to fail....................."
If we can't use a jump start, or use a tender on these batteries what the heck can we do to preserve them when not in use?
Virginia Classic Mustang sells a repro Croup 24 battery, that is NOT the same battery sold by Antique Auto battery. I've been using one of them ever since my red top Optima died. It was 9 1/2 years old. You can use a battery tender with VCM repro battery.
Z.
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Virginia Classic Mustang sells a repro Croup 24 battery, that is NOT the same battery sold by Antique Auto battery. I've been using one of them ever since my red top Optima died. It was 9 1/2 years old. You can you a battery tender with VCM repro battery.
Z.
The repro Autolite that Brant sells is the one made by Axiom Power that is supoesedly the old New Castle Battery, from what I've read the AP battery seems like a better build unit.
Anything new as far as a repro group 22 battery? would THEY REALLY SELL??
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The repro Autolite that Brant sells is the one made by Axiom Power that is supoesedly the old New Castle Battery, from what I've read the AP battery seems like a better build unit.
Anything new as far as a repro group 22 battery? would THEY REALLY SELL??
Everyone keep asking suppliers for the 22F. If they see demand they might bring one to market quicker.
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What is the general thinking about the 22F battery.......was it REALLY "That" supplied in the '65-'66s? I'm assuming all the 6 cylinder cars would have had it? What denoted an upgrade to the 24F? GT? Hipo? a/c? I wouldn't think that anything like a GT or Hipo would have come with a 22F...
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If I look at the Axiom site, it appears that their battery is a type of wet-cell battery - and not AGM at all. Can anyone confirm whether the reproduction Group 24 battery is wet-cell or AGM - as the charging technology is slightly different.
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What is the general thinking about the 22F battery.......was it REALLY "That" supplied in the '65-'66s? I'm assuming all the 6 cylinder cars would have had it? What denoted an upgrade to the 24F? GT? Hipo? a/c? I wouldn't think that anything like a GT or Hipo would have come with a 22F...
The 22F (45amp, C5AF-10655-A) was the standard assembly line installed battery for all Mustangs (possibly all Fords) in 1965-66 including HP cars and GTs. The 24F (55amp, C5AF-10655-B, Mustang opt Z-106, O-106 ? for 65) was an option. Ford went as cheap as possible.
Jim
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Optimia type charging: Ctek makes a charger with a specific program for charging the Optimia battery. The program is a snowflake picture. I have yet to see another charger have that. In fact, I discussed it with the Optimia manufacturer at Sema and they confirmed it. I believe recharging a severly discharged battery is the only issue it is required for.
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If I look at the Axiom site, it appears that their battery is a type of wet-cell battery - and not AGM at all. Can anyone confirm whether the reproduction Group 24 battery is wet-cell or AGM - as the charging technology is slightly different.
the VCM group 24 battery is AGM technology. I don't know the manufacturer of it.
Z.
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What is the general thinking about the 22F battery.......was it REALLY "That" supplied in the '65-'66s? I'm assuming all the 6 cylinder cars would have had it? What denoted an upgrade to the 24F? GT? Hipo? a/c? I wouldn't think that anything like a GT or Hipo would have come with a 22F...
As has already been mentioned the 22F was the standard battery regardless if GT ,hipo etc. If you had A/C that option automatically upgraded the battery to a 24F.
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Bob,
My A code convertible has AC and factory rally pac . I have the original window sticker and it has an upgrade charge for the 24F. My C code coupe with out AC also has an upgrade charge for the 24 F. So I don't think it was required for AC as it should have been included in the price of the AC.
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Bob,
My A code convertible has AC and factory rally pac . I have the original window sticker and it has an upgrade charge for the 24F. My C code coupe with out AC also has an upgrade charge for the 24 F. So I don't think it was required for AC as it should have been included in the price of the AC.
The upgrade from 22 to 24 is that way for 67 so just assumed it was the same for 65/66. It seems that for what ever reason the 24 F turns up on a A/C equipped car. Does anyone have paperwork for a factory A/C car that doesn't have the heavy duty battery?
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BOB.
YES I do. please see attached images.
both 66 cars that's I have owned and where unrestored when purchased and air con from factory as per paperwork.
regards.
PHILL BERESFORD.
MELBOURNE.
AUSTRALIA.
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Oh well that theory seems shot down . On the bright side it should offer even more incentive for Battery suppliers to come up with the 22F version since they were used more then the 24F . If they do, they need to be careful and make the 65-67 version and not the 68-70 version like what the current repro represents. There were substantially more 22F used as standard equipment in 65-67 then in 68-70 so it would only make sense to make the version that would have the most demand. It is bad enough have to see the inappropriate size batteries in a otherwise concours correct car let alone a 68 version as things stand now :o .
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i could not agree more. i have talked with virginia mustang & npd & they in turn have talked with the vendors and they expressed no interest in doing a correct 22 battery. i would purchase several if available. heck i would almost be tempted to settle for a dummy case for show purposes. maybe someone with one of those 3D printers could assist in this undertaking??
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i could not agree more. i have talked with virginia mustang & npd & they in turn have talked with the vendors and they expressed no interest in doing a correct 22 battery. i would purchase several if available. heck i would almost be tempted to settle for a dummy case for show purposes. maybe someone with one of those 3D printers could assist in this undertaking??
My understanding is it is the cost of the mold for the case that is the main stumbling block. The mold for the top is costly too but not near as much . I overheard numbers in the 100,000.00 plus range. This has been consistant over the last 10 to 15 years I have discussed this with interested vendor parties . The ironic thing is that the market is already built in. The 22f battery would be needed by almost everyone 65-67 . The ones that originally came with the optional 24F battery still have a wrong example if they use the 68 based repro. The same case with minor changes could be used for the 68-70 22f battery.Of course it would only stand to reason that the 65-67 24F assembline top and 68-70 22F top would be redone at the same time. The 24 F 65-67 battery would be the easiest to come out with and could be done now with relative smaller expense because the case is virtually identical to the current repro bottom case . The current repro 24f lid would have to be modified with the molded printing on top. The vendors don't want to invest more money in a new inproved reproduction and will not unless the enthusiast insists on the correct one!!!! I have constantly heard them use the excuse "no one complains but you. The MFG wants things to stay as they are so they can maximize their profits . I don't begrudge the vendors making profits but not at the expense of a wrong part for our beloved cars.
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do you have any direct contact info for the vendor(s) involved? maybe we could start a campaign to let them know what is really needed..........just a thought.
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As judges we've discussed that we should be deducting when we find an incorrect sized battery in a car similar to what we do on just about any other piece attached to the cars. For some reason, in the past, have chosen to look the other way and now it seems that a small deduction (as would be expected in the weighted scoring method) is appropriate and might help motivate owners to call more and in turn influence the makers as they have been in so many other reproduction part examples.
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do you have any direct contact info for the vendor(s) involved? maybe we could start a campaign to let them know what is really needed..........just a thought.
I have been in contact with 3 different parties over the years that were planning on doing the right batteries none of them are current MFG's. The latest was about 6 months ago. I have not check recently to see how that was going. All of current MFG's seem to be un interested because the ones they were producing seemed to be good enough because no one complained except me (they said). I think with continued education so that enthusiasts with a desire for correct looking parts for their cars will become better informed and realize the current battery is not correct for the pre 1968 cars.
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Maybe we are going about this problem from the wrong direction. The battery manufacturers have no interest in making low volume special batteries. All we need is a case! There are plenty of battery options which are smaller in size and will fit any of the old cases. I saw some at Sema which you could get 3 or 4 of them in a regular battery case. The battery part is easy.
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Maybe we are going about this problem from the wrong direction. The battery manufacturers have no interest in making low volume special batteries. All we need is a case! There are plenty of battery options which are smaller in size and will fit any of the old cases. I saw some at Sema which you could get 3 or 4 of them in a regular battery case. The battery part is easy.
...and the case is the expensive part (read: high pressure injection mold).
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...and the case is the expensive part (read: high pressure injection mold).
+1.
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...and the case is the expensive part (read: high pressure injection mold).
Yes, you are correct from the battery manufacturers standpoint. By using another battery source, the case no longer needs to be manufactured to battery standards. Infact, it does not even need to be assembled. We already have fake battery tops! How much trouble can it be to convert that design to fit a box. I'm just thinking the plastic parts suppliers might be easier to deal with, as the battery guys said flat out NO. Just trying to put some ideas out there. It's not very likely anyone here has much influence on making this happen.
The first generation cars have a couple options on repro batteries. The third generation has no options and no hope of anything materializing in the foreseable future.
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3D printer?
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3D printer?
jay leno has a big one..........anyone know him??
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Yes, you are correct from the battery manufacturers standpoint. By using another battery source, the case no longer needs to be manufactured to battery standards. Infact, it does not even need to be assembled. We already have fake battery tops! How much trouble can it be to convert that design to fit a box.
The tops are not correct for assembly line battery is the one we're discussing the need for - the service replacement (wrong/different casting and size) reproduction is available
The first generation cars have a couple options on repro batteries. The third generation has no options and no hope of anything materializing in the foreseable future.
There are no options other than the current incorrect battery for the 65-67's believe that is what we're discussing - we seem to have not included that point in this discussion/thread since we've discussed and shown pictures in past threads then continued it here ;)
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=3638.msg20092#msg20092 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=3638.msg20092#msg20092)
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jay leno has a big one..........anyone know him??
No..no, just leave it alone!! :o LOL