ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1968 Mustang => Topic started by: imbett on February 21, 2014, 11:55:51 AM
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I require help on vinyl top My car has a small 1/4 inch trim between the top and the drip rail I need all info on
1 does it go on before or after drip rail mouldings
2 What type of tool or make do I need and they look like small pop rivets are needed ?????
thanks JOHN :)
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I require help on vinyl top My car has a small 1/4 inch trim between the top and the drip rail I need all info on
1 does it go on before or after drip rail mouldings
I would add the drip rail moldings after. Think of it this way- you get the top attached to the roof, pull and push the top into the drip rail depression and then, since all of the material needed is in place, you can trim the excess and install the drip moldings. Done the other way there is too great of a chance that you would run short of material
2 What type of tool or make do I need and they look like small pop rivets are needed ?????
Don't know of any special tool - I've used a nylon window spoon or bar to push/tuck the top into corners like around the front or rear window depression. Us it more often for getting the head liner in place or helping weather strip around the windows in place - especially helping in the corners
Basically your looking for a blunt tool that can push the top material into the drip rail depression without tearing the material till the contact cement grabs. A couple radiused paint sticks tapped together would work in a pinch
The use of rivets to hold a strip in the gutter of the drip rail started in Oct of 1967 (early 68 production) and used 1/8" rivets to attach the strip
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HI I sure enjoy your help I am most concerned with getting the POP RIVET GUN into the small area and not marking vinyl :)
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I have a MARTIREPORT and it shows a production date of MAR 26 NOT AND EARLY DATE but it has it JOHN
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HI I sure enjoy your help I am most concerned with getting the POP RIVET GUN into the small area and not marking vinyl :)
A concern but there are many than have small profile heads and if you use it horizontally with the drip rail they will fit. With some caution and time you can do it
I have a MARTIREPORT and it shows a production date of MAR 26 NOT AND EARLY DATE but it has it JOHN
Not sure what this reference is to unless its the retaining strip. If so them a Mar 26th day would be almost 6 months after they started this practice according to Ford
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I should never assume but :I did as I read that as only early production SORRY but I sure like the help JOHN :)
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I should never assume but :I did as I read that as only early production SORRY but I sure like the help JOHN :)
No problem - I often read through posts too quickly and sometimes miss important words :(
Glad to help
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Pop rivets go in from the underside, not in the channel. That way the somewhat flush head is exposed on the underside, not the compressed stud end. The stud end is covered by sealant in the channel.
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Hi Well that makes sense and as long as I have had this car I never thought it would install like that :) :) THANKS this a great site
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WHAT DO YOU USE AS SEALANT
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Pop rivets go in from the underside, not in the channel. ..........
Though I've seen them inserted from the bottom on fastbacks Ford's instructions and repair instructs show them being installed from the top down.
Here is a modified scan of the TSB (#1216) that illustrates the fix for earlier built car and the factory installation practice as described by Ford for the dealers, service managers and mechanics
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/68%20Mustang/VinyltopTSB_zpsbcc5861c.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/firetrainer/media/68%20Mustang/VinyltopTSB_zpsbcc5861c.jpg.html)
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WHAT DO YOU USE AS SEALANT
Only have Ford part numbers for the stuff so that is no help. If I recall correctly the stuff appeared to be a white or black silicon based material . Finished produce was very smooth and elastic
Other instructions I found in TSB article show applying masking tape along the top edge to work as a dam and provide a straight finished edge. Apply the sealer then peel back (horizontally to the drip rail) the tape before it firms up
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Can only say the original Vinyl roof '68's cars (one GTCS one S GT coupe) I have have them installed from below. And that pic is a service note, for pre October '67 cars? And not factory assembly info? Which would not even be relevant to the GTCS noted, which were built long after that... ???
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What is availability of the drip rail strip?
Neil Hoppe
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First welcome Neil to the site/forum - hope you find the information here useful in your concours related efforts
What is availability of the drip rail strip?
If you asking if they are available in reproduction form - I don't believe they are, so if needed you'll be looking for a donor car
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As Jeff noted, do not think they are available repro. They are not just a plain flat strip, have a series of slits in one side, creating a lot of little "tabs" that clip into the drip rail side, and are formed in a compund curved manner to clip into the rail.
A flat strip might work, I did not take any close up pics of mine before installing to show the section or tabs...
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I think there is some confusion about the VT retainer strip. There were two versions used, one that laid on the top material and was pop riveted then sealed. There was another version used that after the top material was glued in and sealed at the edge, this stainless steel strip that was toothed on one side was forced down in-between the roof and the rain gutter and no pop rivets were used. This second method is not seen very often but IMHO was a far better looking installation. I had it on a late build Dearborn 67 Coupe. I have not seen the second method used on a 68. Sorry I have no pictures, lost then in a hard drive crash a few years ago. This special trim is mentioned in the MCA rules.
Marty
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Since its somewhat related thought I would post a picture of the typically found brads used from the factory to hold down the front/leading points of the vinyl top material to the A pillars. Believe that I've normally seen only one each side but in this example found two. They are visible with the door open on an assembled car most of the time
Hope this helps someone along the way
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-100314191023.jpeg)
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I think there is some confusion about the VT retainer strip. There were two versions used, one that laid on the top material and was pop riveted then sealed. There was another version used that after the top material was glued in and sealed at the edge, this stainless steel strip that was toothed on one side was forced down in-between the roof and the rain gutter and no pop rivets were used. This second method is not seen very often but IMHO was a far better looking installation. I had it on a late build Dearborn 67 Coupe. I have not seen the second method used on a 68. Sorry I have no pictures, lost then in a hard drive crash a few years ago. This special trim is mentioned in the MCA rules.
Marty
This comment closely matches what I have found on my 11/2/66 San Jose built coupe. After reading this whole thread, (and a few other threads on vinyl roofs) I am more curious than confused. The Service bulletin (image on pg 1 of this thread) looks to be drilling the chrome or stainless "toothed" trim (snap in) to keep it from lifting up (which is why I left mine off for many years, it kept lifting after I changed the viny roof) The service buliten doesn't make mention or seem to indicate this 2nd method with the regular steel strips under the stainless strips, as found on my early 67 SJ Mustang. My example DID come this way or at very least had work done to it by Ford before the original roof was removed. In 1980, I installed it's first replacement roof and at that time removed BOTH the 1/4" wide riveted and the stainless "toothed" retainers. There was no evidence any work was done to the drip rail edges prior to my drilling out the rivets which DID come in from below on my example. I looked at several (maybe 4 or 5) other examples on 67's or 68's at that time and only found my car having this steel strip riveted in then covered with the stainless "toothed" strip. I did see ones with the stainless only, but not BOTH. Obviously, I wouldn't have any production dates on those other cars.
I retained the stainless chrome moldings but I looked the other day for the steel ones and didn't find them. (must have thrown them out in a garage clean up one day back).
My question would be if these steel riveted in strips are required (which would require me finding a pair) or should I fill the rivet holes. I remember the strips seemed to be pre-drilled, since some of the holes in the strips were slotted for aligning the rivets (from below)
Looking for a little experienced input, and so far, Marty looks to at least understand the most about this type of installation (though it is seen on a later built car from a different plant).
Richard
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I can't imagine both kinds on the same car. The SS ones look much nicer, may be some one added them. I have only see 5 or 6 cars with the SS trims. It makes it hard to figure out where, when and why Ford used them. I doubt your car came with SS trims but since you have them and have lost the others I would weld up the holes and use the SS ones. They are interesting to install especially if they are bent.
Marty
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I can't imagine both kinds on the same car. The SS ones look much nicer, may be some one added them. I have only see 5 or 6 cars with the SS trims. It makes it hard to figure out where, when and why Ford used them. I doubt your car came with SS trims but since you have them and have lost the others I would weld up the holes and use the SS ones. They are interesting to install especially if they are bent.
Marty
Thanks Marty, like I had said, I hadn't seen both on one car either. I actually haven't seen any other car with the riveted in standard steel strips in my quests. In another thread, I mentioned I saw all of my examples of original vinyl roofs in So.Calif. where vinyl roofs were not a highly sought after option. I saw more Cougars than Mustangs with them so things could be a little obscure in memory about original roofs on these cars. I do know the holes are there and I do know I drilled the rivets out myself . I cannot say that somebody didn't add the SS ones in the first 9 years of the car's life before I bought the car, but I can say somebody else removed the original roof, cut off at the edge of the SS strips before I got the car and remains of the original roof was under both strips (no signs of a replacement roof found at that time)
Upon replacing the vinyl roof, the experienced body man who helped me said to leave both of the strips off-that they were not needed to hold the roof down so that is what I ended up doing (but saved them) Later, I tried installing just the SS trim, but couldn't really get them to stay in tight at the time so I ended up taking them back out. I may still have the 2nd set of standard steel ones but they haven't surfaced recently so may not also.
The SS ones don't look bent up to badly so I'll work on them some and give them a try.
Thanks again, Richard
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One more thought about the rivet direction (up or down) Often after a hail storm dealers were installing vinyl roofs right and left. Unless the roof is verified on a Marti report and you know it has never been replaced I think the factory put them in facing down. That makes the most sense if you were trying push the top material down tight.
Marty
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...Unless the roof is verified on a Marti report and you know it has never been replaced I think the factory put them in facing down. That makes the most sense if you were trying push the top material down tight.
Marty
Correct assumption on pushing down to tighten the roof material, that would also be my first train of thought. Another perspective would be the strip was clamped, then drilled from the top and riveted from below. The flush rivet heads would be adjacent to the weatherstrip channel and facing down, would not look as "neat" or tidey. The expanded head or the rivet would be covered in sealant.
I'm not really trying to buck this and especially since obviously I cannot account for the first 9 years,... only speaking of what I have found and some on what I remember The vinyl top (Marti Report Confirmed as being white, as well as white remnants found under the drip rail strips at first replacement installation and a few more white remnants recently removed from under the pillar post rivets/nails) was already removed before I got the car, anything could still be true. It WOULD be nice to have somebody who has an original top that is secured with the riveted strip to chime in, but that might be a needle in a haystack. ...also since I took the rivets out some 34 years ago, my aging mind could of course be mistaken. I am simply going by memory. If memory is serving correctly, I remember them going upwards, contrary to what otherwise would make perfectly good sense too.
Richard
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Hi Richard, here are a few pics of my survivor Coupe. Stainless showing the 1 exposed rivet in front and 1 in the back. If you need anything else let me know
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s46/sportyworty/My%2068%20Black%20J%20code%20GT%20Coupe/004_zps89628085.jpg) (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/sportyworty/media/My%2068%20Black%20J%20code%20GT%20Coupe/004_zps89628085.jpg.html)
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s46/sportyworty/My%2068%20Black%20J%20code%20GT%20Coupe/007_zps6a007a2f.jpg) (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/sportyworty/media/My%2068%20Black%20J%20code%20GT%20Coupe/007_zps6a007a2f.jpg.html)
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s46/sportyworty/My%2068%20Black%20J%20code%20GT%20Coupe/Scan0001_zps04b6125e.jpg) (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/sportyworty/media/My%2068%20Black%20J%20code%20GT%20Coupe/Scan0001_zps04b6125e.jpg.html)
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Thanks Kerry, I believe those rivets are in line with the service bulletin Jeff posted on pg.1 of this thread. Yours being built AFTER the October date implies it was done at factory, not the dealership. My thoughts are, also considering your build date, that the 68's were different to a degree, even in the earlier than the October date mentioned, like so many other things, to that of the 67, or early 67 design. Once again this thread goes into the "til we have more original examples" category, but it does follow the O.P.'s original lines of questioning before I steered it away asking about 67's.
About the only other question I might have on your car is, if you look from UNDER the drip rail, are there any rivets along the edge of the window weatherstrip channel? Chances are, the answer is "NO". But on the odd chance that it DOES, it would be good to see a photograph of those rivets.
Thanks very much again for adding your pictures. It surely will be help to others.
Richard
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Richard the only rivets visible from the underside of the rail are the 2 heads from the ones I posted above. Obviously they were installed from the underside up not top side down.
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Bringing up this thread again, as I have a July 67 Metuchen coupe with a factory installed vinyl roof (the original vinyl is long gone, though). I am interested in knowing about sealing the drip rail. I was reading in the Osborne sealant manual that coupes got sealer in the drip rails, unless they were going to receive a vinyl top. Does this mean that coupes with vinyl tops did not receive sealer? In the interest of minimizing leaks, what is today's best practice for sealing the vinyl roof/drip rail assembly?
I was planning on purchasing self-leveling sealer, however, I do not what to cause problems installing the snap-in retainer strip.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Mark
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Any advice?
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Since its somewhat related thought I would post a picture of the typically found brads used from the factory to hold down the front/leading points of the vinyl top material to the A pillars. Believe that I've normally seen only one each side but in this example found two. They are visible with the door open on an assembled car most of the time
Hope this helps someone along the way
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-100314191023.jpeg)
Since the spiral nails were brought up in this thread also, I wished to update a source for these nails.
Restoration Specialties & Supply Inc. near Pittsburgh Pa. sells them, part# 2233 if shopping for them
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Bringing this topic back to life as I am working on a 68 now that will be getting a black vinyl top. Has anyone come up with any of these retainer strips or photos that show them loose or installed? From what I am reading the 68 is different from previous years? If I had a sample I could make a few of them just need a visual to work with. Assembly manual does not seem to show them either.
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I sent a couple of original ones to Marty R. I don't remember having pictures of them but will describe them.
A cross view (from the narrow edge) is arched, much like the shape of a parentheses character on your computer keyboard.
The one edge of the long run of the drip rail is smooth. The other long edge has a small slit every 3/4" or so, so it is somewhat perforated (so to speak). My take-away is this is what I would consider a "toothed edge". I wonder if the 68 Osborn Assembly Manual has any images to show the strip OR THE SERVICE Bulletin that came out about these strips coming loose (for late-67 and 68 year-model examples).
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I sent a couple of original ones to Marty R. I don't remember having pictures of them but will describe them.
A cross view (from the narrow edge) is arched, much like the shape of a parentheses character on your computer keyboard.
The one edge of the long run of the drip rail is smooth. The other long edge has a small slit every 3/4" or so, so it is somewhat perforated (so to speak). My take-away is this is what I would consider a "toothed edge". I wonder if the 68 Osborn Assembly Manual has any images to show the strip OR THE SERVICE Bulletin that came out about these strips coming loose (for late-67 and 68 year-model examples).
Don't recall or believe there was a TSB on the strips showing or describing them in any detail. If I recall correctly there is one that references the change/usage
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My parts car for my barn find convertible has a black vinyl roof, or what is left of it. Today when I checked the retainers were still buried in the silicone and were the nicest ones that I have found.
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Looks like it would be easy to make if you found the correct stock. Thanks for "digging" in on the subject
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Those retainers are a thing of beauty there....very nice. I assume the car they came from must be pretty decent Marty.....
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My parts car for my barn find convertible has a black vinyl roof, or what is left of it. Today when I checked the retainers were still buried in the silicone and were the nicest ones that I have found.
Yes, those are the EARLY type retainers (extruded aluminum stock and has a rounded edge) and they are the same as what I have on my November 66 built coupe. These get buried in sealant from the factory.
The later-67 thru 68 version is stainless steel and are visible after installation.
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Yes, those are the EARLY type retainers (extruded aluminum stock and has a rounded edge) and they are the same as what I have on my November 66 built coupe. These get buried in sealant from the factory.
The later-67 thru 68 version is stainless steel and are visible after installation.
Richard what makes you think that is a early late thing? My son-in-law's SJ coupe built Sept. 1966 had the stainless steel ones. I always thought it might be a plant or supplier thing. This parts car is a early 67 Dearborn car.
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Richard what makes you think that is a early late thing? My son-in-law's SJ coupe built Sept. 1966 had the stainless steel ones. I always thought it might be a plant or supplier thing. This parts car is a early 67 Dearborn car.
I believe it is early/late based on personal observations and researching for my Nov. 66 San Jose build. I am open to discussing details found on other example that include a Marti Report confirmation, which might help wash out certain non-factory examples (not saying your son-in-laws example it isn't original but also, keeping in mind that replacement tops along the way are very common too).
It doesn't hurt to take a look at drip rails for any holes on cars with a Marti-confirmed example. I rather doubt any dealer or other installer would drill holes for the strips that I consider EARLY (the aluminum ones).
The aluminum strips carry a C5ZB-6553728-A engineering number (as seen in the 67 Osborn Mustang Interior Assembly Manual, page 55, dated 12-16-66). No mention of the stainless version in that citation of reference. A C5ZB engineering number suggests to me that the same strip was designed for the 65 model year and carries into at least the beginning half of production of the 67 year model. I look at this detail on vinyl top examples at shows, and though I haven't complied any list, my research lends to this as another 67 running change of sorts.
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Would these same stainless steel inserts be use in 68 on Cougars too ?
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Here is a couple of pictures of the non pop rivet style.
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Adding some photos here of what I have now and want to make sure if there is a general agreement on installation etc since this thread was started over 9 years ago. Figuring we may have learned some more on this over the years. I am working on a 1968 coupe built in Metuchen in May of 1968.
My understanding is the installation would be as follows:
Install vinyl top on car.
Install strips (see photos) that are riveted in place.
Rivet from the top side down.
Install drip mouldings
Apply sealant to fill over the valley area and cover the strip and rivets etc
Pictures here show an original strip where the holes are every 4 inches except one area where there is a 3 inch spacing. Thanks to Marty Rupp for getting the original pieces to me.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52817649245_9cd6f50b18_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2otjfYV)20230414_094631 (https://flic.kr/p/2otjfYV) by Marcus Anghel (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154714213@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52817649230_88e7bb8266_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2otjfYE)20230414_094807 (https://flic.kr/p/2otjfYE) by Marcus Anghel (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154714213@N02/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52817237731_e82d52d679_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oth9DR)20230414_094838 (https://flic.kr/p/2oth9DR) by Marcus Anghel (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154714213@N02/), on Flickr
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..................... I am working on a 1968 coupe built in Metuchen in May of 1968.
My understanding is the installation would be as follows:
Install vinyl top on car.
Install strips (see photos) that are riveted in place.
Rivet from the top side down.
Install drip mouldings
Apply sealant to fill over the valley area and cover the strip and rivets etc
Believe that is how it is described in the documents.
Did find in earlier documents that the rivets started, according to what is in print Oct 67 and used 1/8" rivets "at critical points"
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Adding some photos here of what I have now and want to make sure if there is a general agreement on installation etc since this thread was started over 9 years ago. Figuring we may have learned some more on this over the years. I am working on a 1968 coupe built in Metuchen in May of 1968.
My understanding is the installation would be as follows:
Install vinyl top on car.
Install strips (see photos) that are riveted in place.
Rivet from the top side down.
Install drip mouldings
Apply sealant to fill over the valley area and cover the strip and rivets etc
Pictures here show an original strip where the holes are every 4 inches except one area where there is a 3 inch spacing. Thanks to Marty Rupp for getting the original pieces to me.
Sorry Marcas I have not had time to call today.
What you described above is what I found on the car the retainers came from. You may want to fill the silicone before the drip rail moldings are installed.
I have not had a chance to look yet but there may be some installation instructions in the 1968 service manual.
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Ok thanks Marty and Jeff. So are we saying that there is not necessarily a rivet in each hole in the strip at every 4 inches? They just riveted as needed or was every single hole in that strip riveted?
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There was a rivet in each hole when I removed them. That seems like more than I have seen on other cars. Knowing that the rivets will be seen from under I think I would start with every other hole and see if it looks tight.
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Does the 68 Assembly Manual cover the installation of this strip?
I followed the 67 Assembly Manual [on a 67 of course] does and the rivet holes were all used
The rivets on this style strip came from below, excepting the very rear-most.
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I dont see any mention of this in the 68 assembly manual. I looked in the 67 assembly manual and dont see it there either unless its hidden in one of the manuals you would not expect?
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I dont see any mention of this in the 68 assembly manual. I looked in the 67 assembly manual and dont see it there either unless its hidden in one of the manuals you would not expect?
Only reference with pictures I can recall is the one I posted in Reply #10
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I dont see any mention of this in the 68 assembly manual. I looked in the 67 assembly manual and dont see it there either unless its hidden in one of the manuals you would not expect?
See Reply #37
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I dont see any mention of this in the 68 assembly manual. I looked in the 67 assembly manual and dont see it there either unless its hidden in one of the manuals you would not expect?
It is found on page 55 of the 68 Interior assembly manual.
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Ok.....I have both the 67 and 68 assembly manuals and found the details in the Interior sections. Didn't think it would be listed in there but glad to have it. I will get materials for install. Not sure what product is best to brush/wipe over the retainers that is smoothed in after the retainers are installed....in case anyone has a recommendation?
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Since a related question came up in another thread I thought I could add some extra to the reference I made back in Reply #2 of this thread and include the TBS
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/19/6-180923234415-19435326.jpeg)
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... Not sure what product is best to brush/wipe over the retainers that is smoothed in after the retainers are installed....in case anyone has a recommendation?
I missed seeing your request for a product recommendation.
I tried several products (caulking) that shrunk too much when laying it in as thick as what is required to conceal the expanded rivets. My solution was to re-coat a few times, each recoat was after the previous coating had cured (and shrunk). Eventually, it leveled over the rivets (I estimate that it was 3 or 4 coats). I hope you found a better product (since has been months since your request).
On Edit: I added an image of how thick the original sealant was. It is easily about 1/4" to 3/6" thick but not higher than the drip rail is deep. Notice that the sealant tapers down away from the drip rail edge.
Another note, I believe the sealant would be best added while the drip rail molding is still off the drip rail.