Author Topic: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?  (Read 21311 times)

Offline KeiserMustang

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Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« on: February 11, 2013, 10:45:20 PM »
I'm sure this topic must have been covered before, but I'm not having any luck with my searches :-\.

My question is about the final painting process.  I see lots and lots of pictures of cars being painted in pieces and later being assembled.  When I talk to guys I've know in the autobody field around here almost all say no way.  They say to "jam it out", assemble it, get the panel alignment dialed in and don't take it back apart.

I'm looking for the pros and cons of painting the car with all the panels fitted and aligned, vs. painting the body, doors, fenders, hood, valance panels, etc. separately and assembling afterwards.

Also, tips and tricks for how to put it back together and align the panels if you do paint it in pieces.

Thanks in advance!

Offline KeiserMustang

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 12:24:51 AM »
My situation is a little different, as I will be doing all my own paint and body work.  I have a friend and a family member who've been in the autobody business for a long time so when I asked their advice it was with the understanding that I would be doing the work myself.  To your point though, most of their experience is late model collision repair and not so much with restorations like are discussed here.

Admittingly, all my paint and body experience has been with later model projects and collision repair as well.  My current restoration project is a 69 R-code Mach I, so my goals are completely different.  Ultimately, I'm shooting for a conours driven style restoration.  I really want to get the original look with primers, sealers, overspray, etc. but I'm nervous about the idea of trying to realign everything after it's painted.  My car has all it's original Ford sheetmetal, so that's a plus.  I've worked with the aftermarket stuff in the past, and have had to bend, twist, cut, weld, and shim like crazy to get panel gaps and alignments set.  Even then it sometimes takes three men and a boy to hold a fender in place while the bolts are tightened.  I'd be scared to death to take some of those panels loose after all the work it took to get it together the first time!

My car was partially disassembled when I bought it, so I really won't know what the original fit and finish looks like until I get a little further along, but it is a very rust free car and shows no sign of any previous accident damage.  I have test fit the fenders and they looked ok, but I'd have to say it still took a little more finagling than I hoped to get them bolted down.  Pretty scary to think about doing it again after they're painted.

My next step is to get the door hinge pins and bushings fixed, then get the door alignment dialed in.  I'll make another go at the fenders and hood after that, but was hoping the experts on the forum might have some insight and advice for someone doing this level of restoration for the first time.

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 12:40:05 AM »
After you let the parts dry, put a piece of tape over the critical edges for fitting purposes. I saw some in the latest Eastwood catalog called "Final Assembly Tape" 6in X 20 ft - stock no 51659 - $24.99. And an extra pair of hands is sometime manditory.
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 02:30:52 AM »
Consider that the people your talking to are likely body shops not restoration shops though some may like to call themselves by that name

We tend to find it easier (once you get it down) do paint as close as the way they did originally To align doors many have developed weights they place in the doors to compensate for the windows, frames and mech.   Put the car together, fit everything, disassemble and paint with a focus on what the end product should look like at the end.

There is no way your going to get the level of detail (any place were the panels that were originally got shot off the car) you will need for a restoration. How are you going to attach the panels without clips and bolts - since each of those were attached after the car was painted? How would you apply body color overspray and direct paint to the back side of the the front valance, headlight buckets, upper  valance and ......,  while they are attached to the car? You get the idea.

Lots and lots of shops realize they can't (don't choose to put in the effort and time) do concours restorations and will stay away from using those terms  after they learn what it really takes. The last Shelby I did - I took over from a local shop when the job got way more detailed then they were willing to do. No problem but they no longer take a job of the owner wants a Concours restoration and their happy with that. 

About 75% of the body shops I visit, when the owner invites me in for a visit to help the painters and workers get an idea of what is needed, don't follow through and eventually give up or refuse to work on the car after the visit. Just my record after all these years

BTW the paint and body work expectations for a Concours Driver are the same as Trailiered so no short cuts ;)
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline KeiserMustang

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 08:07:18 AM »
I'm convinced, following the sequence from the assembly line is the only way to get the correct results.

That being said, what are some of the tricks and techniques for assembling the body panels after they're painted?  Are there tricks for getting the panel alignment back (I've heard of drilling alignment holes in strategic locations that will be hidden after assembly).  Are there sequential steps that make the process easier (especially the fenders)?  How do you keep from damaging the paint around the bolts during the adjustment process?  Edge tape looks like a good idea, anybody have any experience with it?  Other ways to protect the painted surfaces?

Doors, rear valance, painted on the car, deck lid on or off (I've seen both), fenders, headlight buckets, cowl panel, hood, front valance and stone deflector painted separately.

Assembly sequence?

1. Windshield molding
2. cowl panel
2. fenders (align to cowl and doors)
3. headlight buckets
4. front valance
5. stone deflector
6. hood
7. final align hood and front of fenders

This maybe a topic for another thread, but my car is Silver Jade...is there anyway to get the correct overspray patterns if you use a two stage paint or is single stage the only way to go.

As always, thanks and thanks again!

Offline CharlesTurner

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 10:55:41 AM »
Drilling alignment holes is an amateur mistake in my opinion.  If you start out with a good car, fit all the panels before any paint is sprayed, it will go back together right.  It takes a careful hand and attention to detail.  I think the biggest problem with panel alignment is folks using replacement sheet metal... whether it be NOS or reproduction.  Just because a fender is NOS, there is no guarantee it will fit on the car like the actual factory-installed one.

As far as the doors and trunk lid, you can paint those off the car if you like, attaching bolts just need to be painted once installed.  My painter prefers doing it this way sometimes.  He even positions them like they would be installed on the car so he can get the right spray patterns on the edges.  Of course, some prefer to install and then paint, but so long as you get the final look, that's what really matters.

In regards to 2-stage paints, that's a personal preference, but these cars were originally sprayed with a single stage paint, so clear coat really is incorrect.  There are some nice 2-stage jobs that look factory, but anyone with a good eye can tell them apart.  If you want the car to be absolutely right, then go with single stage.  PPG Concept is a great paint line for single stage, but of course there are many options there.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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Offline maynard p

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 03:08:31 PM »
There are some things to remember when painting your car in individual pieces. The color your spraying, the humidity, and the air pressure at the gun. Do you have enough paint for the project from the same mix and thinned all at the same ratio, as every can of your mixing code can be just slightly different shade in color. Whether you're spraying the parts individually or as a unit on the vehicle, it's best to paint them all at the same time, especially if it is a metallic color.

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 09:17:54 PM »
Stopped by the RestoMod Shop locally today and took a couple of pictures to help illustrate what many shops have found that works for them  FUlly agree with the comment that you need to paint everything the same day (don't ask me how I experienced this mistake :( 


This shop likes to do the trunks and doors off the car (painting the jambs with the body)  but have to go back later to touch up the mounting bolts (at the door since the hinge to body are left so that the sealer is left undisurbed)

Just out of the booth



Still in booth number 2



Car with doors and trunk in place


Yet bolts  (and in this case other parts of the mech) still need to be painted.  Before someone asked no the front fender bracket is not painted the correct finish and neither is the mounting bolt - this is not a restoration.



Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline svo2scj

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2013, 04:35:12 PM »




« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 04:37:12 PM by svo2scj »
1969 R Code , Sportsroof (non Mach) W Axle
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Offline Stangly

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2013, 12:16:48 AM »
Jeff,

In the photo (just out of the booth) you show the hinges are left in place.  So I assume you paint the bolts that go from the hinge to the door seperately before hanging the door.  Is this how they would have done it at the factory or did they hang the door and then touch up the bolts.

I can attest to Charles comments about repop body panels.  I needed doors and fenders and just couldn't afford NOS.  I spent months getting the panels to fit correctly, lots of bending tweaking, grinding and adding metal to edges to get gaps right.  It can be done but it takes a ton of time and patience.  It would cost you a fortune to have a body shop do this work for you.

69 Sports Roof 302 2V (numbers matching)
Dearborn (June build date) Acapulco Blue
68 Coupe J-Code
San Jose (June build date) Sea Foam Green
2001 V6 Laser Red
2015 GT Deep Impact Blue

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2013, 12:29:39 AM »
Jeff,

In the photo (just out of the booth) you show the hinges are left in place.  So I assume you paint the bolts that go from the hinge to the door seperately before hanging the door.  Is this how they would have done it at the factory or did they hang the door and then touch up the bolts.

Nope that picture illustrated how some shops paint then assemble - only to have to go back and touch up the bolts


Originally - since the doors were on during exterior color application (and before) hinge, door and all related bolts were painted. As were trunk lid and mounting bolts on Mustangs



Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Stangly

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2013, 07:13:50 PM »
Let me make sure I got this straight cause I'm getting ready send my baby to paint and want to instruct the painter correctly.

Originally
1.  Doors (hinges & bolts) were hung on the car and then painted.
2.  Trunk lid (hinges & bolts) was hung on the car and then painted.
3.  Hood, front valance, fenders and head light buckets were painted off the car.
4.  The rear valance was afixed at the top and allowed to hang but painted on the car.

Thank you,

David,

69 Sports Roof 302 2V (numbers matching)
Dearborn (June build date) Acapulco Blue
68 Coupe J-Code
San Jose (June build date) Sea Foam Green
2001 V6 Laser Red
2015 GT Deep Impact Blue

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2013, 07:32:50 PM »
Let me make sure I got this straight cause I'm getting ready send my baby to paint and want to instruct the painter correctly.

Just expanding ;)

- Depending on the time period and plant - most of the time the end caps (quarter panel extensions) were in place just spaced out approx 1/4")

- Also (unless the car was a 65-66 GT) the rear bumper guard mounting brackets were installed behind the rear valance (pain to get in later with the valance in place) so that the mounting bolts inside the trunk were painted body color also.

- Number and which rear valance screws were in place at time of paint application varied between plants

- Remember that body color does NOT follow the weatherstrip on the bottom of the door. Interior color was applied before body color and engine compartment (with wheel side inner fender panels if you have a San Jose or NJ car) black after body color

- Pinch weld black out and overspray applied before front sheet metal added to the car
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 07:35:41 PM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Stangly

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2013, 08:30:39 PM »
Thanks Jeff and also to everybody else on the forum.  It has been a six year journey and I couldn't have done it without the help of all you guys.

Many thanks,

David,
69 Sports Roof 302 2V (numbers matching)
Dearborn (June build date) Acapulco Blue
68 Coupe J-Code
San Jose (June build date) Sea Foam Green
2001 V6 Laser Red
2015 GT Deep Impact Blue

Offline KeiserMustang

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Re: Painting panels individually or whole car assembled?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2013, 07:27:43 PM »
Ok, so how about the single stage vs. two stage finish with reguard to the overspray patterns?  Seems like two stage systems are better (easier) for metallic paints.  If you choose to go this way, would you "fake" the overspray patterns with a single stage paint?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 10:25:48 PM by KeiserMustang »