ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Parts => Topic started by: Benstang on April 19, 2018, 05:49:40 AM
-
Hey
I know it has been discussed all over a lot of times but:
A lot of people claim that the new repro Scott drake Export brace ( https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/07041333.html ) is a perfect match to the original.
They say that over time shock towers bend in and because of that you have often to push them back out before you can install the export brace.
I believe the stock measurement between: inner shock cap bolt to inner shock cap bolt ( center to center) should measure 30,5”
My car is almost right on spot to that measurement.
The scott drake peace is almost 0,65 “ off. (Beside the bolts at the cowel vents are off too.)
I just don’t think that all the cars have to be treated like this : (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-fpGsJmig )
I could imagine that a car is off maybe 0,1” and with jack stands you can move that.. but 0,65”.. no way..
How many people have ruined their cars like that to "make the repro part fit??"
Does anyone have an original piece an can give me some measurements?
Thanks for your help.
Ben
-
Something I've always wondered about and will be anxious to hear what experienced folks have to say.
-
I have asked around a bit but have not gotten a straight answer. I bought a Ford one back in 83 and put it on my 69 after having the frame aligned. I would like to put one on my 67.
I think there were issues with the repros back in the 90s.
-
My original 67 export brace is 30 3/4. It's off the car so it's easy to measure.
I just bought a repop of unknown vintage at a swap meet and it's 30 1/2.
It's a later repop that looks very close to an original.
The first repops had very lazy ribs, so they are easy to spot.
-
I have been very pleased with the export braces that Virginia Mustang sells now as their best quality. They have been pretty exact compared to a original from what I have found . They fit as original. They look as original . I have had dozens and dozens of the vintage OEM type over the years as a basis for my evaluation. Yes earlier repro attempts, and there are many look substantially different . Even later Ford service versions looked just as horribly bad. As has been mentioned you can typically tell the difference between a repro or later Ford service by the folds or ribs of metal . Lazy is a good way to describe because they are not as crisp or sharp in the bends. I would have no problem trusting the best export brace version that Brant sells . Check with him on source if you like. If it doesn't fit using that or a vintage OEM brace then it is more then likely a little metal fatigue and movement more so then a faulty piece IMO from what I have seen. It is easy to blame a repo part fit over OEM and rightly so but not in this case using the superior repro part that Brant sells from my experience. FYI I have found slight variations between vintage OEM braces compared to each before but nothing that caused a issue.
-
Hey
I know it has been discussed all over a lot of times but:
A lot of people claim that the new repro Scott drake Export brace ( https://secure.cougarpartscatalog.com/07041333.html ) is a perfect match to the original.
They say that over time shock towers bend in and because of that you have often to push them back out before you can install the export brace.
I believe the stock measurement between: inner shock cap bolt to inner shock cap bolt ( center to center) should measure 30,5”
My car is almost right on spot to that measurement.
The scott drake peace is almost 0,65 “ off. (Beside the bolts at the cowel vents are off too.)
I just don’t think that all the cars have to be treated like this : (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax-fpGsJmig )
I could imagine that a car is off maybe 0,1” and with jack stands you can move that.. but 0,65”.. no way..
How many people have ruined their cars like that to "make the repro part fit??"
Does anyone have an original piece an can give me some measurements?
Thanks for your help.
Ben
Way . Seen it before just like the video. It is more common with bigblock vs small block .
-
The bare one is real and came off the Shelby.
The black one came from a swap meet and looks very, very close.
I weighed them on a digital scale and they are both the same weight, down to the tenth.
The black one looks convincing. No idea who made it. Ford?
-
The bare one is real and came off the Shelby.
The black one came from a swap meet and looks very, very close.
I weighed them on a digital scale and they are both the same weight, down to the tenth.
The black one looks convincing. No idea who made it. Ford?
Any reason to believe Ford didn't make it?
-
I've seen the early, horrible repops and they are easy. I think Ed M. said he could spot one from 20 feet.
I thought there were some "tells" on even the later, good repops.
-
I've seen the early, horrible repops and they are easy. I think Ed M. said he could spot one from 20 feet.
I thought there were some "tells" on even the later, good repops.
Yes the poor repros and some of the Ford service braces are easy to spot. The good repro braces have only been out for about 5 years I think.
-
I have read on this site there are some variations in the Ford export brace. I just picked up a used 67-70 unit with 4 bolt holes. Were these marked by Ford and date coded? I have not seen this discussed.
-
I have read on this site there are some variations in the Ford export brace. I just picked up a used 67-70 unit with 4 bolt holes. Were these marked by Ford and date coded? I have not seen this discussed.
All of the factory one piece export braces had 4 holes. Maybe you are confusing your mention of 4 holes with equal space holes used on 65/66 GT350 vs. non equal spaced like used on 67-68 Shelby and over the counter Ford.They were not marked by Ford or date coded. There are tells like thickness of metal and how the metal is formed into the shape of outside edges and inside stiffening ridges and valleys that typically indicate if repro or genuine. There are some modern well made repros that are extremely close in appearance with all original details.
-
.65" sounds typical if not ideal. Stick it on and forget about it. I have not had any experience with the repros but the OEM ones are always that far off or worse. Typically we have to jack the front of the car and suspend it by jack stands near the rear of the front subframes to make the shock towers spread. My experience is limited to GT500 / GT500KR and other big block applications.
The shock tower bolts don't go straight up and down and the tops of the shock towers are not level with the cowl so there must be difficulty installing the shock tower brace if it is to fit properly when over the bolts.
-
I have read on this site there are some variations in the Ford export brace. I just picked up a used 67-70 unit with 4 bolt holes. Were these marked by Ford and date coded? I have not seen this discussed.
No there is no stamped Ford engineering number or markers mark on an original. Can't be certain these were made by Ford or by a subcontractor. For identification on the service part of Ford in the day a white paper sticker was typically applied to the top of the brace in the center (cowl) section with a black print Ford oval and part number
-
No there is no stamped Ford engineering number or markers mark on an original.
I bought 7 NOS Export braces from a local Ford dealer about 20 to 25 years ago. They all were identified with a "silver" label that had the Ford service stock number, C5ZZ-16A052-E (I think), FOMOCO and a date code. The material thickness at the mid point of the brace from the shock tower to the firewall on the inside edge should be 0.135 inch. Reproductions were a maximum of 0.125 inch at the same point. The material of the repros may have been "corrected" by now (or not). I don't believe Ford made a chrome plated version.
The nice thing about them is they are a great front end suspension support for driving, and are easily replaced by the stock pair for shows.
Jim
-
The last Ford service export braces were of the thinner metal variety and shaped the differently than the assemblyline braces .The last Ford service versions were identical to the cheesy repro versions which makes me think that is what the aftermarket copied from. Using the last version before it goes obsolete has seemed to have been the standard practice unfortunately by the aftermarket to copy.
-
I just checked mine and had trouble getting a good measurement. Too many curves and distortion around the bolt holes. It was measuring thicker. I did measure .139 on the outside vertical edge by the firewall. Looks like I have a Ford unit. It was on the guys car for more than 10 years.
I did notice 4 small holes in the right side ribs. Did the repros have that?
-
I just checked mine and had trouble getting a good measurement. Too many curves and distortion around the bolt holes. It was measuring thicker. I did measure .139 on the outside vertical edge by the firewall. L
My "measurements" were made on the inner edge, midway between the shock tower and the firewall, 0.135 inch. That area has the least distortion from the stamping process.
I did notice 4 small holes in the right side ribs. Did the repros have that?
All three of my 20-25 year old, known Ford dealer sold braces have two holes on the right hand side, one about 6 inches in the center downward dipped rib, the other in the left hand downward dipped rib midway to the shock tower. I assume they were intended for screw attached clips for wiring (I used a pair of 372047-S100 clips, the ones called out for standard installations) and/or the heater hose. Possibly for the choke cable on HP engine cars.
Jim
-
I just checked mine and had trouble getting a good measurement. Too many curves and distortion around the bolt holes. It was measuring thicker. I did measure .139 on the outside vertical edge by the firewall. Looks like I have a Ford unit. It was on the guys car for more than 10 years.
I did notice 4 small holes in the right side ribs. Did the repros have that?
Post some pictures and we should be able to settle on what you have . A shot from above showing the entire brace and a shot turned on edge for a side profile. Some originals had the small holes and some did not. I have not seen 4 on one side before. There is still the matter of if a 65/66 version or the 67/68 version .
-
I just checked mine and had trouble getting a good measurement. Too many curves and distortion around the bolt holes. It was measuring thicker. I did measure .139 on the outside vertical edge by the firewall. Looks like I have a Ford unit. It was on the guys car for more than 10 years.
I did notice 4 small holes in the right side ribs. Did the repros have that?
Haven't seen any with four small holes in the support arms not have any pictures of original with that many holes. Possibly added and not a confirmation of an original. Some originals have a single holes located in the forward most "dip" midway in the passenger side support arm
Agree that it would help for us and in the future if you would identify if yours is an early (65-66) or later version. Note: the finishes on the early brace is not original ;)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/15/6-080121192213.jpeg)
-
Export brace holes location.
Jim
-
A bit old, but....
I have 2 one piece export braces Scott Drake, chrome (manuf. 2020) and black (manuf. 2021, named concours).
I tried for testing purposes to assemble the shock tower caps (as well Scott Drake and a set ACP) to the export brace.
Result:
- the right side fitted perfectly
- the left side did not line up at all.
Problem:
Trying to bring the holes (brace and cap) in line leads into the fact that the cap touches the brace rib.
As a further result a big gap shows up now between brace and cap. And its only on this hole, the other two holes there is no gab visible.
I figured out that the position of the export brace holes are different from left to the right and probably causing the issue. Its not a matter
on the caps. I even tried an original Ford cap, same problem.
Both braces (chrome and black) show the same result.
What to do here? A common problem? A production issue/failure?
How to fix it?
See pics.
Edit
Attached 2 other pics where you can see the perfect alignment on the holes right side and the disalignment on the left side. Of course, now the left cap does not touch the rib and there is no gap anymore ;D
Thanks for your comments.
-
I purchased a Scott Drake Export Brace form Virginia Mustang. The brace is heavy and looks good. The export brace is not correct for my 68CJ, but I really had no choice. The measurement between the inter-fenders just above the top bolt should be 40 inches, mine was 39 inches. I could not get the proper camber angle on either wheel.
I removed the original shock tower braces and placed the export brace in position. I loosely bolted the brace to the firewall. The bolts at the shock tower did not line up either left and right or fore and aft. I jacked the front end up and placed a jack stand behind the torque box on both sides. I loosened all the fender bolts then I cut two 4X4?s at about a 15-degree angle and placed a 12-ton bottle jack between the 4X4?s. I had to support one of the 4X4?s with a 2X4 braced against the radiator support to keep the 4X4?s from bowing out. After carefully spreading the inner fenders, the export brace aligned with the shock cap bolts. At that point I temporally bolted down the brace and removed the 12-ton jack and 4X4?s. From there I was able to reinstall the shock caps, jack up the wheels and bolt the shocks back in place.
After getting the car back on the ground I checked the camber and had -1 to -1.5. The 4X4 and a bottle jack is not the best or safest way to spread the inner fenders, and I would not recommend this method, but it is all this redneck southern shade tree I had to work with.
I got the brace in the black finish and if you do not look really close it almost does not show. When I do show the car at an MCA show I am in the Conservator class an incorrect brace should not be an issue, the big plus is the improved camber and the car does drive better.
-
A bit old, but....
I have 2 one piece export braces Scott Drake, chrome (manuf. 2020) and black (manuf. 2021, named concours).
I tried for testing purposes to assemble the shock tower caps (as well Scott Drake and a set ACP) to the export brace.
Result:
- the right side fitted perfectly
- the left side did not line up at all.
Problem:
Trying to bring the holes (brace and cap) in line leads into the fact that the cap touches the brace rib.
As a further result a big gap shows up now between brace and cap. And its only on this hole, the other two holes there is no gab visible.
I figured out that the position of the export brace holes are different from left to the right and probably causing the issue. Its not a matter
on the caps. I even tried an original Ford cap, same problem.
Both braces (chrome and black) show the same result.
What to do here? A common problem? A production issue/failure?
How to fix it?
See pics.
Edit
Attached 2 other pics where you can see the perfect alignment on the holes right side and the disalignment on the left side. Of course, now the left cap does not touch the rib and there is no gap anymore ;D
Thanks for your comments.
All those reproduction parts - especially those from Scott Drake - will result in poor fit and automatic deductions at shows. I think too your sides are swapped - the driver sits on the left side of the car for example, except in British influenced areas.
-
Dont get me wrong, I made these test parts laying on a table, not assembled in the car, so there is no impact from that point. The problem is in my point of view 100 % related to the obvioisly wrong hole position on the export brace left side. But that means all of those must have this issue.
When I say left side I look into the engine bay in front of the car.
-
Years back, I bought a NOS Ford export brace for each of the four Mustangs I owned, a 65 and three 66 models. On two, both 66 models, the fit was terrible. I had to jack up the front, remove the lower crossmember and do a lot of persuading to get a fit on one. Turns out that the car got hit on the right front quarter. After a trip to a "frame" shop, replacing the RH fender apron and radiator support, it fit nicely. (I sold that car.) The other had no damage, but the brace would not align with the four holes at the firewall. I used a large tapered drift pin to "assist" the placement of the four bolts. That car had never been in any accidents (I knew both previous owners). On the other two, the brace "dropped in" with almost no effort. I remove the export brace and Monte Carlo bar from any car I take to a show.
My point is each car is different, and has a different history - 50 plus years of driving history. Any installation is compounded by age and poor quality control of aftermarket items.
Jim
-
Dont get me wrong, I made these test parts laying on a table, not assembled in the car, so there is no impact from that point. The problem is in my point of view 100 % related to the obvioisly wrong hole position on the export brace left side. But that means all of those must have this issue.
When I say left side I look into the engine bay in front of the car.
Well that is the wrong way to identify things. Ford identifies the left side of anything as the side where the driver sits in the USA.
-
Ok. Thanks for clarification.
My problem has nothing to do with the car itself.
Two parts are not matching together.
I'm interested in if there is a proposal for problem solving, or if anyone else has the same issue and has solution to fix it.
-
Ok. Thanks for clarification.
My problem has nothing to do with the car itself.
Two parts are not matching together.
I'm interested in if there is a proposal for problem solving, or if anyone else has the same issue and has solution to fix it.
Do you have the Ford drawing for the non-shelby, aka Mustang, export brace to do a detailed determination of the problems? Without that, you are just "spinning your wheels".
Jim
-
Do you have the Ford drawing for the non-shelby, aka Mustang, export brace to do a detailed determination of the problems
Should be available and I will messure the parts 3D and figure out the root cause. After I found out I gonna contact Holley to correct the tools if this is what needs to be done.
Until that I store the parts in my rubbish.
-
Ralf,
One minor difficulty. Your Mustang and mine, and all Mustangs built from 1964 thru 1973, use dimensions in the English system, not metric. Any Ford drawings you find pertaining to the export brace will be shown in the English system. We don't think metric, so if you don't mind, either go with the English system, or use both.
(I only "think" metric when working on my 69 VW.)
Jim
-
Do you have the Ford drawing for the non-shelby, aka Mustang, export brace to do a detailed determination of the problems?......
There was no "Shelby" export brace. All of them were Mustang export braces installed on Mustangs or Shelbys. Excluding other versions like Falcon or Boss 429 "export" braces Think that was all of them
Well that is the wrong way to identify things. Ford identifies the left side of anything as the side where the driver sits in the USA.
Found that it works best for most people just to refer to sides as either passenger or drivers side. Taught this when I taught auto extraction around the country. Less confusion and work if the vehicle is on its wheels, a side or on its top
-
Ok. Thanks for clarification.
My problem has nothing to do with the car itself.
Two parts are not matching together.
I'm interested in if there is a proposal for problem solving, or if anyone else has the same issue and has solution to fix it.
I don't think the brace is the problem but I do think the problem is with the unibody. What you are describing is a common problem where over time on some cars one or both shock towers moves because of metal fatigue over time. It mainly happens on big block cars but it happens on smallblocks to. The less permanent fix to get the export brace to fit in most cases is to raise the car up balanced on the lower bolted on crossmember . As you lift the car up the fatigued shock tower that has moved inward will move back in place. The permanent fix is to use a portapower to push the shock tower back into place . I have lost count how many times over the last 40 years (when I found the solution) I have had to do ether fix given the circumstances. At least that is the typical cause of the problem and the solutions.
-
There was no "Shelby" export brace. All of them were Mustang export braces installed on Mustangs or Shelbys. Excluding other versions like Falcon or Boss 429 "export" braces Think that was all of them
In as few words as possible, what are the the differences in an "export brace" used on a Shelby Mustang with four evenly spaced mounting holes to mount at the firewall, compared to the "export brace" that has four holes that are not evenly spaced, that bolts to a regular production Mustang (including 6 cylinder cars)?
If you call one a "Shelby export brace" and the other a "Mustang export brace", would that be descriptive enough?
Jim
-
I have to clarify oncemore.
The new shocktower cap does not fit to the new shocktower brace if you put both parts together while just laying on a table not even trying to assemble in the car. Look closely to my pics. The cap hits the brace rib if you want to bring the 3 holes in line. A gap is the result between brace and cap hole. To screw it down now will probably bend either the cab or the brace rib.. If you move the cap away from the rib, the holes do not match anymore. It is impossible to put the bolts in both the cap and brace. And this is only on one side the problem.
-
In as few words as possible, what are the the differences in an "export brace" used on a Shelby Mustang with four evenly spaced mounting holes to mount at the firewall, compared to the "export brace" that has four holes that are not evenly spaced, that bolts to a regular production Mustang (including 6 cylinder cars)?
The equally spaced one is the first version used on both export cars (including 6 cylinder) and early Shelbys
One is 65-67 (equally spaced) and the other (unevenly spaced) was produced and used after the first version
Over the years there were allot more of the later versions available from Ford and because of this when people bought them to replace originals or to strengthen their cars they got the later ones. So later versions (unequally spaced) have been found so often on early cars and non-Shelbys some have come to believe there are more than only one early (equal spaced) version. Notice reply #19
If you call one a "Shelby export brace" and the other a "Mustang export brace", would that be descriptive enough?
Jim
Apparently, no, because for each year they are the same piece part just installed on different cars
Now back to the current/Ralf's issue
-
I have to clarify oncemore.
The new shocktower cap does not fit to the new shocktower brace if you put both parts together while just laying on a table not even trying to assemble in the car. Look closely to my pics. The cap hits the brace rib if you want to bring the 3 holes in line. A gap is the result between brace and cap hole. To screw it down now will probably bend either the cab or the brace rib.. If you move the cap away from the rib, the holes do not match anymore. It is impossible to put the bolts in both the cap and brace. And this is only on one side the problem.
Are the sock mounts original ones or reproductions also. If they are reproductions I suggest you try a set of originals and see if the issue disappears.
Lots of these late version reproduction export braces are sold and haven't seen this issue posted on this site or others
In either or both cases this may just be another example of reproduction parts not being made like the originals.
-
The problem is clearly the brace. And here the wrong position of the holes on one side. I have a set of original Ford caps. It appears the same issue.
Yes, repros are horrible. And in this case not usable. I saw many videos where people assembled this brace from SD not having this kind of trouble. Unfortunately, I dont have an original brace one piece to stiff the car in a better way.
May be I gonna use the 2 piece original stamped brace I have as well.
-
................May be I gonna use the 2 piece original stamped brace I have as well.
Depends on what your end goal is with the car is. If restoring then the export brace is not original to your car anyway and going back stock would allow your overall project to move ahead. Can always revisit this later since its only a bolt one change
-
I have these three Export braces
One measures 1.25 at what I call the wrist
The Second one measures 2.50 at the wrist
The third one I know is a repro I bought measures 2.75 at the wrist..
My question is what is #1 at 2.25 inches what is the #2 at 2.50 (pictures ) The one that measures 2.50 USED to have a FORD part Sticker What is the 2.25 I have had these for 35 to 30 years Except for the repro
-
I have these three Export braces
One measures 1.25 at what I call the wrist
The Second one measures 2.50 at the wrist
The third one I know is a repro I bought measures 2.75 at the wrist..
My question is what is #1 at 2.25 inches what is the #2 at 2.50 (pictures ) The one that measures 2.50 USED to have a FORD part Sticker What is the 2.25 I have had these for 35 to 30 years Except for the repro
I measured the export brace on one of my cars at the point you referenced. It was a shade over 2.5 inches. I know it's a Ford part, I bought it a Ford dealership (Now closed. They sponsored our Mustang Club.) about 25 years ago. From previous discussions on Mustang forums, a more critical dimension is the material thickness. The previously mentioned brace has a material thickness at your referenced (wrist) location of 0.135 inch. This thickness measurement was to identify reproduction braces which were "rumored" to be made from thinner sheet stock.
I have these three Export braces
One measures 1.25 at what I call the wrist
I think you ment "2.25"
Jim