Author Topic: Autolite 4100 Restorations  (Read 7801 times)

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2020, 02:19:57 PM »
Thanks for sharing Dan. Like the way it appears that the cover and main body does not have the monotone look that you often get with "restored" ones.
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2020, 03:46:08 PM »
Thanks for sharing Dan. Like the way it appears that the cover and main body does not have the monotone look that you often get with "restored" ones.

You are welcome.   Many chemicals and most physical methods of removing grime forever change die cast aluminum surfaces.

Lots of sellers think that hard media blasting, wet or dry, anything aluminum makes it more valuable. If somebody is building a custom car it might but for authentic service of unrestored cars or true restorations a very rare $3,000 or more dirty Ford 4100A core can become a $850 "restored" piece real quick.   

The only media blasting that makes no changes in metal surfaces is dry ice blasting. Created for the aircraft service industry to clean jet engines for routine inspection without having to completely dismantle them, it works on many things. It is also used to remove paint and coatings from aircraft skins. I bought our manufacturing plant a complete system in the early 1990s and it saved out plant millions of dollars a year on maintenance and downtime costs.  The shiniest aluminum molds for plastic parts were not harmed in any way. I told a 427 Cobra owner about dry ice blasting. He gathered up all his aluminum and magnesium parts and got a contractor to quote removing all the paint, undercoating, grease, and oxidation from everything. They even did the dead soft aluminum inner panels and all the magnesium wheels.  When they were done he called me very excited. He was very pleased. Except for existing wear and incidental scratches on parts for decades he said everything, even the magnesium pieces, looked brand new, not restored, but new madeā€¦even those soft inner panels.  No damage to anything.

I have been disappointed for a long time that no shop that I have become aware of catering to the old car hobby has gotten set up to do dry ice blasting.  You can even preclean things like engine long block assemblies, suspensions,  and cylinder head assemblies before disassembly. Dry ice blasting is a super degreaser method.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 01:09:20 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline CharlesTurner

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2020, 04:49:34 PM »
I'm almost finished building a wet blasting cabinet and plan to use soda to try cleaning some carb bodies.  Will report back when it's done.  Soda will not etch the surface and is easy to clean off by rinsing or ultrasonic cleaning.

I've also tried many chemicals with mixed results.  The better the carburetor, the better it will look when finished, no matter what the cleaning method is.

Using any type of abrasive media on the cast alloy carb housings ruins the original appearance in my opinion.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
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Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2020, 05:05:19 PM »
I remember sending in a NOS 66 hipo carb to Pony carbs after talking to Jon Ernhart RIP . Although shelf worn and exposed to humidity the surface of the metal cast body was in perfect condition. We talked about re gasketing and replating hardware emphasizing the condition of the metal body being left alone. You can understand my horror when the carb showed up in the typical restored condition. Jon understood what I wanted but his employees only understood the typical "restore' procedure. The body had been bead blasted losing the unmolested smooth finish and look. He didn't charge me for the restoration was his solution. I wanted him to find me another comparable non blasted body explaining how he devalued the carb. That never happened. 
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline CharlesTurner

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2020, 05:20:17 PM »
I remember sending in a NOS 66 hipo carb to Pony carbs after talking to Jon Ernhart RIP . Although shelf worn and exposed to humidity the surface of the metal cast body was in perfect condition. We talked about re gasketing and replating hardware emphasizing the condition of the metal body being left alone. You can understand my horror when the carb showed up in the typical restored condition. Jon understood what I wanted but his employees only understood the typical "restore' procedure. The body had been bead blasted losing the unmolested smooth finish and look. He didn't charge me for the restoration was his solution. I wanted him to find me another comparable non blasted body explaining how he devalued the carb. That never happened.

Ouch, I'd have been furious!
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Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2020, 05:37:30 PM »
I remember sending in a NOS 66 hipo carb to Pony carbs after talking to Jon Ernhart RIP .....................

Think many of us have similar experiences. We so want to believe and trust that we are on the same page as the other person and often we have not been able to completely communicate our needs and or concerns. Sure this is why many of us have learned to do things ourselves and why IMHO it is so important that we share what works and what does not - One  of the pillars this forum was designed around


Down off my soap box

Young ens might need to look that up  ::)
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2022, 04:01:34 PM »
A C3OF-AJ A 4AB assembly I just completed here in January 2022.  Headed for a highly detailed original Cobra's restoration.



« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 04:35:28 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline preaction

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2022, 05:46:27 PM »
Dan, what is the finish on the choke housing called ?
8F02R218047-  July 18 1968   Dearborn

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2022, 07:44:50 PM »
Dan, what is the finish on the choke housing called ?

The manufacturer, Ford or their supplier, used some kind of very thin paint over the dichromated zinc die casting. Painted castings were submersed such that every surface was painted inside and out. Some organic chemical solvents and other harsh chemicals will wash the paint off. The reddish copper (light bronze?) color seen was called red in period Ford Master Parts Catalogs.  Ford had several different 2100/4100 carburetor choke mechanisms in the 1960s identified partially by their main body casting's color code. I have a new old stock 2100 (2V) carburetor with the plain color (just the dichromated zinc casting) choke mechanism body, a new old stock 4100 (4V) with a bright blue paint coat on the choke mechanism body, and a new old stock C3OF-AJ (4V) like above with a bronze paint identification.


Not my listing but here is a blue 1960-61 version.
Listed is a NOS 1960 FORD CHOKE HOUSING. Ford Part #C0AE-9850-E, Autolite #CC-18. Should be correct for 1960-61 Ford Galaxie, maybe other years/models.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232932998535?hash=item363be37d87:g:yIcAAOSwropboV8Z




« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 11:19:47 AM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2022, 08:07:38 PM »
In general, its is a historical mistake for carburetor shops to "restore" every 2100/4100 series carburetor with every part finished on every carburetor just alike. On the carburetor above I separated out parts to be replated into six different depth of "color" groups for the person doing the plating to work to.  I sent spreadsheets and color pictures to match. My list of parts and colors for them covers November 1963 through January 1964. If I was doing a late summer 1964 list some items would change group(s).  If I was interested in other time periods research would be required. Cobras only have a few dates HP260 and HP289 carburetors were made in batches between mid 1962 and July 1964 so they are not impossible to research.
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline Morsel

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2022, 12:42:24 PM »
So I have a question about the carb housings and their original look. I've seen a lot of these restored carbs even between all of you and wondering what the housing/body would have looked like originally, would it have been a bright aluminum or more of a slightly grey almost patina look. As you see when you have these housings or any other aluminum part vapor or soda blasted they come out pretty bright, so I'm wondering if that would have been the way they were originally, and we're just so used to seeing NOS ones that have that grayer patina look from sitting around for several decades?

Thanks,

Jason
February 10th 1966 - San Jose - Factory GT K-Code Automatic, Candy Apple Red Fastback, Black Standard Interior

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2022, 04:31:59 PM »
Dan how much of what your posting can be applied to later Autolite carbs? Know your focus has often been for cars built before the Mustangs other than some early 65's. Just wanted to get that out there and clarified before someone  with a 71 302 starts detailing theirs like a 63 or other year

So I have a question about the carb housings and their original look. ...................

Think one of the negatives to most efforts to cleaning is they often result in a monotone finish rather surfaces that look like they just were cast. We see this also in things like automatic transmissions, bellhousings and aluminum intakes as well as other aluminum parts

Guess we could post some pictures of NOS carbs from the same period or very close to when they would have been installed on the assembly line at the engine plant. Remember that anything a few years later possibly has details you don't want to copy. Sort of like looking at a 63 NOS carb for your 67 engine.

Colors and finishes may vary a little from original depending on how the parts were stored. I've got a small number left that came out of a high school so they were stored nicely in a pretty  much climate control area for decades

Maybe we need to do that in a different thread since this thread as a slightly different focus
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 04:34:20 PM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2022, 04:47:18 PM »
So I have a question about the carb housings and their original look.
Thanks,
Jason

Pretty bright as cast, no secondary operations to change the castings appearance. On carburetor body and covers (a.k.a. air horns) large flat areas sometime exhibit a little bit of iridescence as an artifact left from molten aluminum working its way over the molding surfaces. Day one the die cast aluminum clutch bell housings had the same type appearance. Below is a new old stock 2100 (2V) made during the 1964 production period that has been protected well ever since.


« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 04:50:14 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2022, 05:50:57 PM »
Dan how much of what your posting can be applied to later Autolite carbs? Know your focus has often been for cars built before the Mustangs other than some early 65's. Just wanted to get that out there and clarified before someone  with a 71 302 starts detailing theirs like a 63 or other year

Think one of the negatives to most efforts to cleaning is they often result in a monotone finish rather surfaces that look like they just were cast. We see this also in things like automatic transmissions, bellhousings and aluminum intakes as well as other aluminum parts

Guess we could post some pictures of NOS carbs from the same period or very close to when they would have been installed on the assembly line at the engine plant. Remember that anything a few years later possibly has details you don't want to copy. Sort of like looking at a 63 NOS carb for your 67 engine.

Colors and finishes may vary a little from original depending on how the parts were stored. I've got a small number left that came out of a high school so they were stored nicely in a pretty  much climate control area for decades

Maybe we need to do that in a different thread since this thread as a slightly different focus
Jeff, 

All good points and I mentioned the time frame I was covering with the carburetor just completed on purpose.  The Ford 4100 family went into production sometime in 1956 for 1957 model Fords I think. Almost every part of them evolved quickly and over time a few new car applications morphed into dozens of vehicles covered a year.  Holley Carburetor Company was involved also and some parts in Ford 4100 models are exactly the same in Holley 4150/4160 models in a given time frame.

Yes, as indicated, redoing every carburetor part of every year for every engine package the same way appearances wise would be a historic mistake.  The only generalization I will risk is any 2100/4100 made in week X of year Y will use the same small parts finishes and most of the paint daubs and grease pencil marks.  Less general, you could reasonable stretch the time frame to a week to a month or so. Example:  In the C3OF-AJ assemblies for 289 High Performance engines built between 3EE and 3FA are so similar finishes wise I call them the same with only tiny variations most likely due to batch to batch manufacturing variances. The same models made between 3LA and 4AB are for the most part the same but some parts differ enough I keep two different spreadsheets of details.  (Note: Even though the two groups are under design level A not all their parts are physically the same design level or time frame version.) Over the years I have specifically looked for new old stock or super low mile examples of 2100s and 4100s made in those time frames and details with a given period are pretty consistent.

I have made or started files for:

C3AF-S which I have never nailed down exactly what it was for.  Users in Ford Galaxie related forums claim a rare 390 High Performance engine package for a police car with manual transmission.  Ford also used them on 260 High Performance engines sent to go into some new Cobras. The vacuum secondary is controlled by a very small brass air flow control orifice, a silicon bronze spring, and a check ball. The secondary opening characteristics are the slowest I have ever tested for a Ford 4100-A carburetor assembly.

C3OF-AB assemblies for 289 High Performance engines March 1963 into May 1963.

C3OF-AJ assemblies made from May 1963 into June 1963. (Which have late 1963 model year versions of parts and chokes in them.)

C3OF-AJ assemblies made during November 1963, December 1963, and early January 1964. (Which have late 1963 and mid 1964 model year parts in them.)

C4OF-AT assemblies made 4DE (The only assembly date I have found for 1964 Fairlanes and 1965 Fairlanes and Mustangs (and 13 each new Cobras).)

C4OF-AL assemblies between 4DE and 4KD.

C5OF-L  assemblies between 4GD and 4JD that were stamped on flanges C4OF-AL.

C6AF-J assemblies for 428 Police Interceptor manual transmission 6AC.

C6ZF-F assembly new old stock but shelf worn and robbed of its assembly tag.

My recommendation for any 2100/4100 rework between 1956 and whenever they were dropped is to find the best low mile never separated from its original details carburetors and new old stock carburetors from the time frame you are interested in. I have done that since 1986 for the models used in Cobras. I have a few new old stock 2100 and 4100 models held as holotypes for fine details.

Aluminum die casting wise, many Ford O.E. parts looked just like they came out of the mold except for any machine work they received as a secondary operation or painting as a third operation like aluminum cased water pumps and time covers when engines were painted.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 07:06:45 AM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Autolite 4100 Restorations
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2022, 06:23:00 PM »
I want to point out that it is very common for find model year incorrect parts from main body castings onward in commercially rebuilt, remanufactured, and restored carburetors. Getting all the model and time frame correct parts can be a challenge before worrying about finishes.  I cringe at the modern replacement screws some shop use in their jobs, similar to what Ford used but not exactly the same and very visible without an air cleaner installed. Many cores and restored carburetors will have some version of non-stock support (a.k.a. booster, cluster, auxiliary venturi) in one or both locations. It is getting to be real common to find cores and restored 1964-66 289 High Performance carburetors that originally came with M primary supports to have something else in use.

Some main bodies have dates marked into their undersides. This was probably a date that something was done to the mold cavity. It is possible to have a 10..15..63 marked body in any carburetor made after that date. It would not make sense to have an assembly tag of May 1963 on a body marked October 1963.

Many parts were different between carburetor assemblies and or model years. Some easy to spot ones include but are not limited to:
Top (a.k.a. cover or air horn), exactly which die casting.
Top assemblies, exactly what small parts get attached.
Many of the small parts in choke systems.
Primary throttle shaft, exactly which of several levers was installed.
Secondary throttle shafts, shaft material and lever design.
Fast idle adjust lever design.
Fast idle cam design.
Accelerator pump system design and components.
Some parts vary between 2V and 4V.
Mixture needle screw design, different grip designs and different needle tapers. (There were three common needle tip angles used by various carburetors that I have serviced: 17?, 21?, and 24? plus different end sizes between 0.025 and 0.032.)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 11:15:40 AM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.