Author Topic: Phosphating 101 -  (Read 31018 times)

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2020, 04:52:23 PM »
I just tried my first finish.  I used the instructions included in my palmetto order.  It came out splotted.  I bead blasted and didn’t clean prior to dipping.  Temperature was 190.  Palmetto’s instructions were different than what was in this thread.  When the finish was bad I searched and found this forum.  Is it splotchy because it wasn’t clean?  Do I need to re-blast and start over?  Have you seen this before?

Looks like there was something (could be oil from touching it with you hand) that kept the liquid from doing its job. Yes its back to the beginning but part of the learning curve. Most of us have been there before
Jeff Speegle

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Offline jwc66k

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2020, 04:53:49 PM »
Some items that were previously zinc plated (or some other type of electrolysis type of media deposit), will leave a light "blotch" if phosphated. That's an indication there was good penetation of the zinc. When that happens, it's back to the blasting cabinet. There are other items that have a "flaw" in their material and just will not cooperate. From the blasting cabinet to the phosphating tank, the items must be clean, free from oil and grease - that includes your own fingers - before phosphating. I use a clean shop towel or dry type rubber gloves to handle items. A pre-phosphating cleaning bath or dip (like acid) is not recommended. The one "exception" is if you are using Eastwood's metal blackening solution prior to phosphating nuts and bolts to get a dark finish.
What is the item you are having a problem with? Is it magnetic?
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline gimmea250swb

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2020, 10:25:00 PM »
Thanks for the replies.  I'm trying to do the hood safety latch.  I didn't touch it (gloves only).  I don't know if it's original or aftermarket.  What material are after market latches made of?  Any chance they're not compatible?

After trying the latch, I had a spare tire hold down disk (not sure of the correct name) and phosphated it and it came out nicely.  The only difference was that I used Easy Off to degrease it not knowing if that was the problem.  The good news is that I've got something to work correctly.  I used somebody else's cabinet so maybe the media could have been contaminated - who knows.  I'm going to buy my own cabinet to make sure I know what condition the media is in. 
'66 Shelby Feb build
'65 FB 5T09T164019

Offline bullitt68

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2020, 04:05:27 AM »
I just tried my first finish.  I used the instructions included in my palmetto order.  It came out splotted.  I bead blasted and didn’t clean prior to dipping.  Temperature was 190.  Palmetto’s instructions were different than what was in this thread.  When the finish was bad I searched and found this forum.  Is it splotchy because it wasn’t clean?  Do I need to re-blast and start over?  Have you seen this before?

Hi gimmea250swb. I use the Palmetto system as well with both zinc & manganese. I also use a bit of a different process, but it is close to the same and generally get a great result unless of course the parts are not properly prepared or get contaminated.

Regarding the splotchiness, it is contamination. Contamination can be from various things, but the key is to make sure that you're blasting is very thorough, and that your blasting is the same consistent color all over. If there is any variation on your part before phosphating it will be the same after.

As has been pointed out, some previous coating that you may not be aware of, like zinc plating, anodizing, cad etc are often difficult to remove. Also residual petroleum products etc.

For my process I  I start by washing the part in soap and water if there is no grease or rust.

If there is grease or oil I use the parts washer first. Then I go right to the dry media blaster.

From the media blaster depending on the part I may vapour blast the part if I want a shinier finish like on some fasteners and other parts. Then I submerge the parts depending on size i various containers and build to between 190-200 degrees.

Then I usually put the parts in small metal baskets with hooks on them if the parts are small. For bigger parts like hood springs I just drop them right in the container. I leave the parts in for 10-15 minutes max.

Then I rinse with water, then blow dry with compressed air and then  spray directly with Boeshield and let dry. I generally don't wipe down the parts and just let the boesheild dry fully overnight or for 24 hours approx.

I may try adding the oil step just before Boeshield to see if it yields a darker finish.

FYI I just did some hood spring tonight that were previously cad plated and they did not take well. So I blasted them a second time and they still did not take well. The good news is I can see the areas that didn't take well and know which areas still need to be blasted longer. Hopefully another thorough blast will yield a good result. I didnt see this article until after I left my shop but will post a photo tomorrow. Take a close look at the photos I posted of the hood springs and you can see the difference in color. Even this subtle difference makes a big difference in the final result.

Here are some parts I have done using my method. Like other have said it is quick and simple and yields a great result as a rule. Note that the Axel studs were previously zinc platted and turned out fine with proper blasting time.

FYI I also recently tried to phosphate some shackles that were stainless steel and they don't take at all as the meal is not phosphorous.

Good luck with that stubborn part.




« Last Edit: January 05, 2020, 04:28:37 AM by bullitt68 »
Mike
1968 Mustang Fastback GT 390 Raven Black, 4 speed
8R02S162374, San Jose, June 5, 1968

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2020, 02:54:14 PM »
If you put the part in some muriatic acid it will bubble wildly as long as the zinc or cad are on it . After the the zinc or cad is dissolved by the acid (typically less then 5 minutes) the bubbles will slow dramatically which means the zinc or cad is gone. I use this process when ever I have a plating issue like that and it soles the problem the quickest.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline bullitt68

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2020, 04:11:38 PM »
If you put the part in some muriatic acid it will bubble wildly as long as the zinc or cad are on it . After the the zinc or cad is dissolved by the acid (typically less then 5 minutes) the bubbles will slow dramatically which means the zinc or cad is gone. I use this process when ever I have a plating issue like that and it soles the problem the quickest.

Thanks Bob appreciate it
Mike
1968 Mustang Fastback GT 390 Raven Black, 4 speed
8R02S162374, San Jose, June 5, 1968

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2020, 04:40:08 PM »
If you put the part in some muriatic acid it will bubble wildly as long as the zinc or cad are on it . After the the zinc or cad is dissolved by the acid (typically less then 5 minutes) the bubbles will slow dramatically which means the zinc or cad is gone. I use this process when ever I have a plating issue like that and it soles the problem the quickest.
Excellent. I've not had that problem, but it's nice to know there is a solution. Keep in mind that all acids are hazardous. Keep a container of baking soda (Borax or Arm and Hammer) around for neutralizing spills, on the ground, or on you.
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline bullitt68

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2020, 04:55:12 PM »
Excellent. I've not had that problem, but it's nice to know there is a solution. Keep in mind that all acids are hazardous. Keep a container of baking soda (Borax or Arm and Hammer) around for neutralizing spills, on the ground, or on you.
Jim

I am going to try the acid method as it is definitely inconsistent with the media blaster based on my experience trying to remove previous coatings. Some come off easier than others depending on the coating, the metal, the part etc
Mike
1968 Mustang Fastback GT 390 Raven Black, 4 speed
8R02S162374, San Jose, June 5, 1968

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2020, 05:07:25 PM »
Excellent. I've not had that problem, but it's nice to know there is a solution. Keep in mind that all acids are hazardous. Keep a container of baking soda (Borax or Arm and Hammer) around for neutralizing spills, on the ground, or on you.
Jim
+++++1. and wear eye protection to be on the safe side.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline OldGuy

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2020, 09:53:04 AM »
If you put the part in some muriatic acid it will bubble wildly as long as the zinc or cad are on it . After the the zinc or cad is dissolved by the acid (typically less then 5 minutes) the bubbles will slow dramatically which means the zinc or cad is gone. I use this process when ever I have a plating issue like that and it soles the problem the quickest.

I've made it a practice to give the parts, that I'm either zinc plating or phosphate treating, a final "dip" in a muriatic acid solution before processing to assure a great finished product. I use a 5-10% acid concentration for this dip. I don't leave the parts in the acid for more than a couple of minutes. I've learned to do this final dip because I've experienced similar "contamination" or "staining" issues as everyone else and find that the final acid dip usually eliminates them. I do a post-rinse with distilled water and blow dry with compressed air. Make sure to NOT to touch your parts with your bare hands at any time following your initial degreasing (which includes post bead blasting) to keep skin oil off of the part. I've discovered that there is no such thing as being too clean when doing these processes.     

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2020, 06:36:06 PM »
I've made it a practice to give the parts, that I'm either zinc plating or phosphate treating, a final "dip" in a muriatic acid solution before processing to assure a great finished product. I use a 5-10% acid concentration for this dip. I don't leave the parts in the acid for more than a couple of minutes. I've learned to do this final dip because I've experienced similar "contamination" or "staining" issues as everyone else and find that the final acid dip usually eliminates them. I do a post-rinse with distilled water and blow dry with compressed air. Make sure to NOT to touch your parts with your bare hands at any time following your initial degreasing (which includes post bead blasting) to keep skin oil off of the part. I've discovered that there is no such thing as being too clean when doing these processes.   
I use the same diluted solution for parts that are already stripped . It will slightly etch the surface a long with cleaning off contaminants. Just a note that the 5-10% solution will take many hours to strip zinc plating off of a part. I use the undiluted solution to strip zinc plated parts quickly.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2020, 12:24:17 PM »
Has anyone sourced a RETAIL source of E-phos 630 or the likes (that they have been happy with the results) ?
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2020, 03:19:09 PM »
I use the same diluted solution for parts that are already stripped . It will slightly etch the surface a long with cleaning off contaminants. Just a note that the 5-10% solution will take many hours to strip zinc plating off of a part. I use the undiluted solution to strip zinc plated parts quickly.
How about a description of the tools you use, materials, life expectancy, etc?
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2020, 03:28:30 PM »
Has anyone sourced a RETAIL source of E-phos 630 or the likes (that they have been happy with the results) ?
The shop that does my zinc plating ordered a case of E-Phos 630, half for them, half for me. They had a customer that wanted some items phosphated and oiled. If you have a "friendly" plating shop you use, see if they would order some. That shop probably has a Federal Certification for handling that type of material, you don't. Don't be surprised if you need to order a case. You may be able to sell a bottle or two on this forum.
The link: https://www.epi.com/phosphates/steel/#e-phos-630
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Phosphating 101 -
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2020, 03:52:51 PM »
The shop that does my zinc plating ordered a case of E-Phos 630, half for them, half for me. They had a customer that wanted some items phosphated and oiled. If you have a "friendly" plating shop you use, see if they would order some. That shop probably has a Federal Certification for handling that type of material, you don't. Don't be surprised if you need to order a case. You may be able to sell a bottle or two on this forum.
The link: https://www.epi.com/phosphates/steel/#e-phos-630
Jim

Thanks Jim.

I get eager at times and probably because of that, shoot myself in the foot.

Earlier today, I ordered this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001B800OQ?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image

I will report back how things turn out, if not here in this thread, my 67 GTA thread in the Members Build area.
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments