ConcoursMustang Forums
Showing & Judging => Events => Topic started by: CharlesTurner on September 10, 2013, 05:29:15 PM
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MCA Judge's Meeting - October 11, 2013
Courtyard by Marriott DFW Airport South
2880 Valley View Lane
Irving, Texas 75062
Have heard there are some pretty drastic recommendations going to be put forth at this meeting such as suspending or eliminating the MCA Thoroughbred class. Anyone with a vested interest in the MCA Judging Program should attend this event.
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I decline to comment on the grounds that it may incriminate me ;)
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MCA Judge's Meeting - October 10, 2013
Courtyard by Marriott DFW Airport South
2880 Valley View Lane
Irving, Texas 75062
Have heard there are some pretty drastic recommendations going to be put forth at this meeting such as suspending or eliminating the MCA Thoroughbred class. Anyone with a vested interest in the MCA Judging Program should attend this event.
Charles I could not agree with you more. There was a thread here a few month back speaking to some problems in this class and now with the possibility of latter generations showing in the Tbred class it is time it is reviewed and up dated. I hope many who's opinions I deeply respect on this forum will be in attendance. The ones that complain but never offer any help I really have no time for.
Marty
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Hi!
Why would MCA / or anyone want to suspend or eliminate the Thoroughbred Class? I was not aware of problems. Please inform me as I am "not in the know"! As for me......when I attend a National show I spend a considerable amount of my time viewing the Thoroughbred restorations as I feel they demonstrate the ultimate in restoration craftsmanship as well as allowing me to view super rare cars and NOS parts that I would other wise never get to see!
Looking forward to responses! Mike Bauman
PS I cannot attend the Judging meeting as my budget will not allow......buying too many NOS parts!
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Charles I did not notice it till just now the MCA judges meeting is on Friday October 11th
Marty
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Charles I did not notice it till just now the MCA judges meeting is on Friday October 11th
Marty
Fixed that, thanks.
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Charles I did not notice it till just now the MCA judges meeting is on Friday October 11th
Marty
Yep - even the locals will have problems getting off a work day to attend/participate :(
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Remote location, Judges meeting on a Friday? Not much of a draw to encourage attendence, but then maybe a low turn out is the goal for a few to promote their agenda?
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I've been involved with MCA since the mid 90's and I don't recall there ever being a Judge's Meeting on a Friday. By all appearances, it seems like a formality required to submit recommendations immediately to the MCA BOD the next day.
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Very sad indeed.
Regards,
Pete Morgan
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Really Bob Dallas TX. a remote location? Like Juneau WI. is on the way to where? I did enjoy the meeting there except judging in the snow!
I know Friday is a work day but aren't most national shows on Friday, Saturday and Sunday? I guess it boils down to what is important to you. I am taking off Thursday and driving 10 hours to be there. That is not what I like but it is better than the cost of a second trip latter. I hope many regional and national directors will attend the judges meeting. It will give them a greater understanding of the judging program and the things that are being asked for.
It is important to have the judges meeting before the fall board of directors meeting so there is time to make necessary adjustments. Particularly like those with the Motosho program that will require changing the national show guide lines. So no planed conspiracy to push things through.
I really do not believe that the Tbred class will be suspended, all though it does need some up dating. That is where it is very important to have people like those on this forum in attendance so the best solutions are found!
I hesitated on making this post but thought it might stop the rumor mill.
Marty
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................ Particularly like those with the Motosho program that will require changing the national show guide lines. ...............
We're thinking about changing the national guidelines for what program??? Think that's a first
Will wait to hear the details ;)
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There was a thread here a few month back speaking to some problems in this class and now with the possibility of latter generations showing in the Tbred class it is time it is reviewed and up dated. I hope many who's opinions I deeply respect on this forum will be in attendance. The ones that complain but never offer any help I really have no time for.
Marty
Marty,
I have re-read the posts you referred too. The suggestions to improve the Thoroughbred Class seem to all have come from you? I’ve copied your ideas below. I’ve also responded to your suggestions.
I have been part of the MCA for almost 20 years and will have to admit that I did not know too much about the Tbred class and the Authenticity award until Tari and I took over the tally room in 2011. The most important is participation in the class.
Tari and I are committed to improving the judging process in all MCA classes.
Thanks
Marty Rupp
I don’t believe it’s in the job description of the MCA judging Secretaries (Tally Room) to suggest MCA Class requirements. Participation numbers in THB & Unrestored classes’ 65-73 have never been huge due to the limited number of Unrestored and Thoroughbred cars. The Unrestored class is MCA’s most important and prestigious class. Participation numbers are low for obvious reasons. THB numbers are also low for similar reasons. The turnout at Indy was very good. Maybe turnout is related to Show location?
I would like to know how to become a Thoroughbred judge? I asked to be part of the team at the Mustang OK. grand national that judged the 68 Tbred. I was not included. With only 6 Tbred cars in all of last year the opportunity to judge one does not come around very often. I know that I am no way qualified to judge Tbreds but how are you to learn. If the MCA is to continue to offer this class we must have judges in training.
You asked how to become a THB Judge? Unfortunately, it’s not possible to get the information to become a THB judge off the “Tire Rack Website”. It took most of the current Thoroughbred judge’s decades to gain their knowledge to be qualified THB and Unrestored judges. Most have been MCA National Head Judges, assistant National Head Judges, owners or restorers of Unrestored or THB cars. Most are well educated in original parts identification, proper assembly line finishes and assembly line production procedures. Most if not all THB judges have a special interest in Unrestored cars. Unrestored cars are the best text book for the THB class.
At most grand nationals the Tberd class is no more than 1% of the cars in attendance and yet a extraordinary amount of time and effort is given to them. At national shows the class is nonexistent. If this very special class and if it is to continue some things need to change.
Why do you think you have the knowledge to suggest changes to a Class you admit you know little about and are not qualified to Judge?
Here are a few thoughts. As discussed expanded judges training. Better attendance through the year even when there is no authenticity award at stake. To that end change the authenticity award to be given to those that have collected required points over a season. That would promote better attendance and guard against a onetime poor judging.
The suggestion that mandatory show attendance should be tied to the Authenticity award is ridiculous. Authenticity and show attendance are not relative. It is not the responsibility of Thoroughbred or Unrestored car owners to educate MCA judges. Apparently since OKC you have learned how to get on a Thoroughbred judging team as you helped judge my 69 Mustang in Indy. Must not be too hard to tag along as you are not even listed as a 69 -70 judge according to MCA judges list? I’m sure it was a learning experience as you now know 69’s did not use starter delays.
It has also been suggested that the concourse judge sheets be no longer used and new more comprehensive Thoroughbred sheets be developed by some of you best of the best judges. That way better consistency will be had when a less experienced judge is left to the task.
Suggested by Who? Marty Rupp? Better detailed judging sheets in all concours classes continue to evolve. I don’t think anyone will argue this is a good thing to continue. I don’t believe however, a judging sheet will make a judge qualified if not qualified beforehand. The Bonus point sheets could use a few additions such as build sheets etc. and eliminate bonus points for generic items such as showroom brochure. I think it would be a good idea to add to the Thoroughbred Judging Sheets and MCA website a more detailed explanation of judging standards at MCA National VS Grand National show due to Authenticity award. Apparently some people don’t understand the definition for “No Reproductions allowed”.
Also the thought of adding the old technical inspection to process to insure that these best of best cars operate as they were delivered from the assembly plant.
OK you can start yellling at me now! Marty
The Tech inspection was dropped for all MCA classes because MCA decided it was a waste of time. Please inform us how a Tech inspection would increase participation in Thoroughbred class?
The MCA judging committee has suggested on more than one occasion to the MCA BOD that the Grand National should be required to have a 4 post lift on site to judge Thoroughbred Gold and Unrestored Gold cars for the Authenticity and Platinum awards. This will help insure the cars are judged accurately on undercarriage and would also serve as a training tool by displaying various cars throughout the event. This request needs to be implemented. The 4 post lift would be the best judging tool MCA could implement to improve the THB and Unrestored class.
See you in Dallas Martin! :D
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We're thinking about changing the national guidelines for what program??? Think that's a first
Will wait to hear the details ;)
Motosho is the new show registration and recording system.
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Motosho is the new show registration and recording system.
OK thanks - didn't know what they were calling that. See what happens when your not an assistant head judge any longer .... oh...... sorry didn't know it when I was :( Communication isn't what it was.
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Probably the only reason I know about it is I have been in contact with Wayne Campbell over the years and it's his company.
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Probably the only reason I know about it is I have been in contact with Wayne Campbell over the years and it's his company.
I've seen and discussed it with him many times - just didn't recognize the name of the product :o
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Marty,
I have re-read the posts you referred too. The suggestions to improve the Thoroughbred Class seem to all have come from you? I’ve copied your ideas below. I’ve also responded to your suggestions.
I have been part of the MCA for almost 20 years and will have to admit that I did not know too much about the Tbred class and the Authenticity award until Tari and I took over the tally room in 2011. The most important is participation in the class.
Tari and I are committed to improving the judging process in all MCA classes.
Thanks
Marty Rupp
I don’t believe it’s in the job description of the MCA judging Secretaries (Tally Room) to suggest MCA Class requirements. Participation numbers in THB & Unrestored classes’ 65-73 have never been huge due to the limited number of Unrestored and Thoroughbred cars. The Unrestored class is MCA’s most important and prestigious class. Participation numbers are low for obvious reasons. THB numbers are also low for similar reasons. The turnout at Indy was very good. Maybe turnout is related to Show location?
I would like to know how to become a Thoroughbred judge? I asked to be part of the team at the Mustang OK. grand national that judged the 68 Tbred. I was not included. With only 6 Tbred cars in all of last year the opportunity to judge one does not come around very often. I know that I am no way qualified to judge Tbreds but how are you to learn. If the MCA is to continue to offer this class we must have judges in training.
You asked how to become a THB Judge? Unfortunately, it’s not possible to get the information to become a THB judge off the “Tire Rack Website”. It took most of the current Thoroughbred judge’s decades to gain their knowledge to be qualified THB and Unrestored judges. Most have been MCA National Head Judges, assistant National Head Judges, owners or restorers of Unrestored or THB cars. Most are well educated in original parts identification, proper assembly line finishes and assembly line production procedures. Most if not all THB judges have a special interest in Unrestored cars. Unrestored cars are the best text book for the THB class.
At most grand nationals the Tberd class is no more than 1% of the cars in attendance and yet a extraordinary amount of time and effort is given to them. At national shows the class is nonexistent. If this very special class and if it is to continue some things need to change.
Why do you think you have the knowledge to suggest changes to a Class you admit you know little about and are not qualified to Judge?
Here are a few thoughts. As discussed expanded judges training. Better attendance through the year even when there is no authenticity award at stake. To that end change the authenticity award to be given to those that have collected required points over a season. That would promote better attendance and guard against a onetime poor judging.
The suggestion that mandatory show attendance should be tied to the Authenticity award is ridiculous. Authenticity and show attendance are not relative. It is not the responsibility of Thoroughbred or Unrestored car owners to educate MCA judges. Apparently since OKC you have learned how to get on a Thoroughbred judging team as you helped judge my 69 Mustang in Indy. Must not be too hard to tag along as you are not even listed as a 69 -70 judge according to MCA judges list? I’m sure it was a learning experience as you now know 69’s did not use starter delays.
It has also been suggested that the concourse judge sheets be no longer used and new more comprehensive Thoroughbred sheets be developed by some of you best of the best judges. That way better consistency will be had when a less experienced judge is left to the task.
Suggested by Who? Marty Rupp? Better detailed judging sheets in all concours classes continue to evolve. I don’t think anyone will argue this is a good thing to continue. I don’t believe however, a judging sheet will make a judge qualified if not qualified beforehand. The Bonus point sheets could use a few additions such as build sheets etc. and eliminate bonus points for generic items such as showroom brochure. I think it would be a good idea to add to the Thoroughbred Judging Sheets and MCA website a more detailed explanation of judging standards at MCA National VS Grand National show due to Authenticity award. Apparently some people don’t understand the definition for “No Reproductions allowed”.
Also the thought of adding the old technical inspection to process to insure that these best of best cars operate as they were delivered from the assembly plant.
OK you can start yellling at me now! Marty
The Tech inspection was dropped for all MCA classes because MCA decided it was a waste of time. Please inform us how a Tech inspection would increase participation in Thoroughbred class?
The MCA judging committee has suggested on more than one occasion to the MCA BOD that the Grand National should be required to have a 4 post lift on site to judge Thoroughbred Gold and Unrestored Gold cars for the Authenticity and Platinum awards. This will help insure the cars are judged accurately on undercarriage and would also serve as a training tool by displaying various cars throughout the event. This request needs to be implemented. The 4 post lift would be the best judging tool MCA could implement to improve the THB and Unrestored class.
See you in Dallas Martin! :D
Great Bob I will look forward to your input. If some of my uninformed out of the box thinking brings some of the old MCA pros back to a MCA judges meeting then I guess the beating was worth it. Marty
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More may come back with the next changing of the guard! ;D ;D
Regards,
Pete Morgan
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More may come back with the next changing of the guard! ;D ;D
Regards,
Pete Morgan
If there is anything left to salvage.
I totally agree with Bobs reply.
I also don't see the need to update the TB or Unrestored classes for early cars other than the bonus points sheet as Bob mentioned because of the late model nags coming in. Let them do there own thing with there judging like they do now as they have already gone back to the old sheets. If they don't want to conform why should we change what has worked well for years.
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The reason there are perceived problems with Thoroughbred right now is due to the fact that hardly any of the assistant or national head judges are qualified to judge them. It's hard for others to get training when there are few mentors to work with.
Also, agree with Mike about the newer cars. The judges for those classes feel compelled to use their own judging guidelines, so let them do whatever they want to. Obviously, consistency is not of concern to them.
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In my opinion the MCA is doing nothing to encourage those with thoroughbred cars to bring them to an MCA show. As an owner of two thoroughbred cars, both of which has won the Authenticity Award, I have felt like some within the MCA look at these cars as more of a problem than an attraction to those that appreciate seeing some of the best restored cars in the country. I have been treated with more appreciation from the ISCA than I have ever been with my cars at an MCA show. It seems as though some of those that are in control want the newer cars and driver quality restoration. I witnessed this first hand at the Indy show this year which was the first time I have showed my Boss 9 at an MCA show.
As far as the judging I am really confused as to why some think there is a problem with the way thoroughbreds are being judged. As Charles has mentioned there are very few that are qualified to judge these cars. You cannot teach someone how to judge cars at this level in a round table meeting. It has taken those that are qualified to judge these cars 30-40years to learn correct part numbers, date codes, assembly line techniques etc. Guys like Bob Perkins, Jim Cunningham, Charles Turner, Ed Meyer, Jeff Speegle, Bob Gaines, all of which I have had the pleasure of judging with, are the best of the best and are some of the very few that are qualified to judge for thoroughbred and authenticity awards. Now I know there are a few more that I haven't judged with that are also qualified but they are few.
There is a reason that the MCA has established a National Head Judge(Alan Steward), an Authenticity Judge(Bob Perkins) along with Assistant National Head Judges because they are some of the most knowledgeable Mustang judges in the world. These are the people that should be leading the way for any changes that can improve our judging system.
Mr. Rupp my question to you is what are your credentials to recommend changes to the thoroughbred judging system. Have you owned a thoroughbred level car, have you judged thoroughbred cars in the past, do you know what it takes to restore a car to the thoroughbred level. You say these cars need to be started. Are you aware that when you start these cars that the moisture starts to ruin the NOS exhaust system. The bolts that have been intentionally left loose so that it does not chip the paint now has to tightened to prevent the fluids from leaking out. NOS tires can be ruined by driving over sharp objects. Now these may not be your type of car maybe you prefer cars that have reproduction parts and undercoated undercarriages and fuzzy dice around your mirror as you drive down the road which is great if you like that. But for some the pursuit of excellence is what we try to achieve. For this reason I believe cars restored to these high levels are responsible for the continued recognition and financial appreciation we have seen with the Mustang brand.
By the both of my Thoroughbred cars have been started, one has been sold and I still have the other. IT has become an almost impossible task to keep it to the level it was due to the fact of starting it.
So let's leave the improvements in judging to those that have earned the right to be in the positions they are in with the MCA and once they make a decision about the judging of a car they should not be questioned by anyone including the President of the MCA.
Rick Campbell
317-752-5469
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Well said Rick.
It would be great to have more qualified judges, but maybe the club should be doing a better job of embracing and encouraging those that do have the knowledge to attend shows and help mentor other judges. I heard there is talk of eliminating the authenticity head judge position, who in their right mind would even consider that?
As Mike Murray says, I hope there is something to salvage after all the damage is done.
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This has been a very reveling thread indeed. I am very disappointed in some that I have held in the high regard here. All I was asking for is your help in making things better but it seems that personal political fights are more important. I never made any claim to know more about this class than any of you. What I do know some thing about is honesty, integrity and fair judging. Things that some of you have taught me.
I have been told here that the Tbred class is about absolute authenticity, every part number, each date code and every metal finish at what ever the cost. Right? These car must be as delivered from Ford. My 68 build sheet says that it was filled with 4 gallons of gas. So how is a dry car reprehensive of as Ford delivered? All that said to say if I could afford one of these cars it would be dry as well and I would take the -1 deduction knowing it is the right thing to preserve the car. One of you wise men told me that it is important to all ways leave room for the guy that has it right. The -1 point was not to be a penalty but a reward to the one that has it right.
After three years on the inside of the MCA we have seen some judge conduct that makes me sick but I am not going to get in to that here.
I will see those of you that want to make a difference in Dallas
Marty
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Marty: Don't want to delve into discussions regarding how a T-bred should be prepared/presented, but I think you're a little off-mark on the comments about having to run and have gas. You're not thinking about preservation, which really is at the heart of not wanting to crank up and drive these cars. Most times, they are never intended to be driven, think of them as a piece of art, which is kind of what they are in a weird sort of way. If the club wants to discriminate against that, then T-bred cars simply won't be a part of the shows anymore. I've always thought that MCA tries to be flexible and listen to what members want. Having been on the outside looking in for the past couple years, I am sickened at what I have seen/heard also.
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Marty,
This is not a personal attack, but do you really think it would be realistic to expect someone that has spent north of 100K and untold hours finding original assembly line parts ,many of which are unobtainium to now have to find original fluids to put in these works of art? #1 Gas has a shelf life. #2 Modern gas is incompatible with most components in early Mustang fuel systems including fuel pump diaphragms, accelerator pump diaphragms , etc.. #3 the Methanol added to modern fuels is hygroscopic and promotes accelerated rusting of the fuel tank and lines. #4 One of the byproducts of combustion is sulfuric acid , which causes the exhaust system to rot.
The way these cars are not presented as normal over restored cars , they are actually Museum pieces restored to to the same quality that would have been seen at the end of the assembly line. Adding fluids dose not add anything substantial to there authenticity , and only accelerates there deterioration. Though I'd don't own a TB restoration , owning Unrestored cars I am fully aware of the damage caused by fluids in these cars.
The main goals of the MCA are to preserve the history of the Mustang and to promote comradery in the community. What better way to preserve the history than promoting the showing of these cars? Changes to this class will only hurt the judging community and Mustang enthusiasts as a whole by driving the away from the shows were they can be seen and studied up close by hundreds of people as opposed to be sitting in a museum or private garage were they will only be seen by a few.
The people who build these cars are the most hard core enthusiasts and posses the highest knowledge of Mustangs around and many have worked hard in the judging community to share this knowledge and help perfect the judging system . Do you really want to drive them out?
Sorry if this sounds disjointed.....I'm no ya writer. But mu 2 cents worth.
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Hi!
Can any one give me an itinerary with some approximate times for the Meeting? I am trying to set up my flight and lodging reservations.
Thanks in advance! Mike Bauman
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Meeting will start at 9am. It will be at AER Re manufacturing 1605 Surveyor Blvd Carrollton Tx.
Host hotel is the Courtyard DFW South
Number is 972-790-8990
There is special rate for MCA participants.
Jeff Mays
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I really hate to miss the judges meeting this time but work forces me to stay home. Charles you are absolutely correct about these cars becoming pieces of art. The amount of money and total dedication of time and research the restorers put in to bring these cars to that level is amazing. One thing that cannot happen, in my opinion, is that when the head judges and authenticity judge make a decision on judging a car they should not be questioned or over ruled by anyone else within the MCA. I saw happen at the Indy show. A car was judge and then the restorer not the owner gathered up several of the head judges to find out if he should take his car to Florida to see if it would win the Authenticity Award. He was told that it was a very nice restored car but it did not meet the level needed to win the award at this time. We showed what he could work on to improve the car to bring it to a higher level that it is now. He was also told that the registration is closed for that show. So what happens, he contacts a high ranking official with the MCA and starts a combative situation between the judges and the MCA official. My problem with this is that the heads of the MCA should be standing up for those that have worked for so long to make the MCA the greatest automobile club in existence. Instead it divides its members and fails to promote the higher standards that we need for our judging system. We cannot bow down to the pressure that some car owners put on us to move their car to a higher level just because they can complain to other MCA officials. If this is how our judging system is going to be then we do not need judges meetings or judges for that matter lets just ask each owner what they feel that car should be awarded.
Rick Campbell
317-752-5469
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I think all of this is the start of a big crack in the MCA crest. I had a coin toss with my self: Heads, I do something I like and will have fun, like my yearly fishing trip. The flip was tails, I lost, so I guess I am going to Dallas.
Jim C.
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The obvious personality conflicts just reinforce my current feelings about MCA. Its not just about Tbred, its about the whole system. The arguement continues to be about judging the cars and that is not the (only) issue. Charles you are my friend but the word "perceived" is an illusion and not reality. There are real problems that occur outside of the real judging as to which cars make it and which dont. This is not just related to the recent fiasco but what i have observed for years.
I suppose my opinion isnt valid as I am not on Rick's "best of the best" list. By the way Rick, have you ever restored a T bred car?
Sorry if I come across cynical, its really not my nature. I also want to clarify that this is not directed at the T bred class as I previously stated. My issue has been at the head of the organization should be the ultimate responibility to say all this is under my watch and is my legacy. I had this conversation with him over 3 years ago when the positive judging community changes started going to negative.
I also want to support Marty in his efforts to try and change things. Irregardless of his T bred knowledge and qualifications he at least is making a focused effort to make things better rather than just going along with a broken system
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Well, Tim, you know I try to stay in the middle ground and be reasonable about things. Anyone involved in judging is volunteering their personal time and that is always worth something in my book. There are only a couple of members that I would single out as being the root of most of the current problems, but they aren't participating in the discussion, so it's not worth mentioning their names.
Something that bothers me about some of the comments on this thread are to the effect that if you don't show up to the judge's meeting, then you must not care, so don't complain. We have to be very careful with this attitude. There are many in the club that I respect and would very much like to see them at a judge's meeting, but it is not realistic to expect everyone to attend. Throw in the fact that the meeting is on a Friday and too far to drive for most active judges and it's just not conducive to gaining valuable feedback. The only reason that I can come up with as to why the meeting is on this date is due to the MCA BOD meeting being the following day at the same location. This is yet another poor decision by those currently in charge.
Last thing I will mention is that I have received absolutely no personal communication regarding the judge's meeting and what is going to be discussed. I had to hear second-hand about some of the changes that will be discussed. It all wreaks of secrecy and pushing agendas forward without proper buy-in. I remember sending out information to all the judges I had e-mail addresses for when I was national head judge, informing them about the meeting and what was planned. This was done via personal e-mail, the MCA website and also Mustang Times. The only thing I ever saw come from the top about the 2013 meeting was in Mustang Times. There is some registration form for the judge's meeting and regional director's summit, but I don't remember ever getting communication that this registration is required. If I show up at the judge's meeting, will I be turned away because I didn't register?
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I've never heard of registration ever being required for a judges' meeting, and haven't heard anything about it this year. I also wish the meeting weren't on Friday. Because I have to attend the BOD meeting, that would mean me committing my time from Thursday through Sunday, so three nights of a hotel room, four days of my house-pet sitters, meals, and the plane ticket. And, I would end up having to attend the Regional Directors Summit on Saturday. Sorry, but one of those was enough for me. If the judges' meeting were on Monday, I would have stayed over.
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Tim,
I agree with what you are saying , but the politics and melding have been going on at least as far back as when I became involved with judging. It did get better for a few years before the current administration took over , then it seams to have come back in spades. As a whole the judging system and accuracy of the rules and most of the judges improved greatly during that time. It's a shame that the current powers that be have so negatively impacted those improvements. I don't know what happened at Indi , but it sounds like we have pushed the clock back 10 years and it makes me feel like I wasted a decade of my life.
I'm all for positive changes , but until the mind set of the officers of the club change in a more positive direction I don't think that is possible.
Marty,
You and your wife have done great things in the tally room and I commend you for that and the work you have done with judging. That said I would strongly suggest that you defer to the people that are involved with the TB class befor making any changes.
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Found out there is no pre-registration required.
Jeff Mays sent the agenda to me. Evidently, the head judges have only sent this to a select few:
2013 MCA ANNUAL JUDGES’ MEETING
AER Remanufacturing
1605 Surveyor Boulevard
Carrollton, Texas
11 October 2013
A G E N D A
9 AM President’s Welcome Steve Prewitt
9:10 Head Judges’ Opening Statements Allen Stewart, Jim Silverman
9:30 2013 Judges’ Budget review Jim Silverman
9:45 Judges Secretary’s Report Tari Rupp
10:00 Classification Report, MOTOSHO Update Patsy Brown
10:15 Certified Judge’s/Gold Card Program Jim Silverman
10:30 Break
10:35 1st and 2nd Generation Report Allen Stewart
11:00 3rd, 4th, and 5th Generation Report Jim Silverman
11:25 Proposals for 2014 Show Season Allen Stewart, Jim Silverman
* Budget
* ANHJ’s Agreement
* Show Classes
12:00 Lunch
Comments by: April Rawson
Product Marketing Manage
Roush Performance
1:00 Workshop Guidelines
1:15 Workshop
3:00 Workshop Feedback:
* 1st and 2nd Generation
* 3rd Generation
* 4th and 5th Generation
* Modified
* Occasional/Daily Driven
* Shelby and Thoroughbred
4:30 General Discussion, Proposed Changes, Recommendations to MCA Board of Directors
6:00 Wrap Up
Note: Time slots are approximate and flexible. However, there are many specific topics to cover so it is imperative to remain focused on the schedule.
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Lol, I didn't get a copy and I'm on the Judging Committee. Go figure.
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Tim I'm sorry but I do not know you or your qualifications but if you read my post I listed those that I have judged with through the years and I mentioned there are more but I have not judged with them. I did not intentionally leave you out. But to answer your question I did not restore my two TBred cars but there is not one bolt, screw, or clamp I have not touched. I helped in getting both of my cars running. One had not been started since its restoration in 1982 and the since 1989. I am currently restoring my 69 Shelby which we are taking to a lower end TBred. I have found every NOS part that was needed for the restoration and have been involved in every aspect of the restoration to date. My first car was a 1970 Mach 1 that I bought when I was 15 and my wife and I performed a complete tear down of the car and reassembled every nut bolt and screw. We showed that car in the ISCA from the time I was 19 until age 23. We kept that car for 33 years and sold it to buy my first TBred. I have been a gold card judge for the past 9 years and have helped with judging on 7 TBred cars. I can tell you that my knowledge is not even close to those I mentioned.
Again my reason for posting is because of what I saw at Indy and hearing people complain that have never judged in this class. I believe if changes need to be made it should come from those that have been judging these cars for years.
Rick
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I'm not a bit surprised about all of the comments. When I was on the board and Executive Committee, there were many agendas put forth at the last minute without consultation, without much forethought, and that appeared to be pushed hurriedly with little discussion. The fact that the Judge's meeting agenda was not distributed widely to all judges and date selection is symptomatic of those in charge that don't appear to think of how things appear to others. When Head Judges are re-assigned at a moments notice without BOD discussion or quit suddenly, then something is dramatically amiss.
For these and a few other reasons, I decided not to participate on the MCA BOD anymore. It appears that little has changed in the past 3-4 years.
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Randy: I've always wondered why the MCA president has sole authority to appoint head judges. I think there is some approval process, but from what I understand, the BOD usually does not contest. Maybe there should be a formal vetting process for head judges?
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Randy: I've always wondered why the MCA president has sole authority to appoint head judges. I think there is some approval process, but from what I understand, the BOD usually does not contest. Maybe there should be a formal vetting process for head judges?
The MCA Bylaws state: "The President shall appoint the Parliamentarian, Sergeants-at-Arms, Historian, Publisher, National Head Judge and if required, a National Head Judge Representative with the concurrence of the Board of Directors when appointing non-board members to support roles."
It appears that the National Head Judge serves solely at the pleasure of the President.
Personally, I believe the MCA President and main officers should be spokesmen of the MCA, not spokesmen for the MCA.
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Something that bothers me about some of the comments on this thread are to the effect that if you don't show up to the judge's meeting, then you must not care, so don't complain. We have to be very careful with this attitude. There are many in the club that I respect and would very much like to see them at a judge's meeting, but it is not realistic to expect everyone to attend.
Charles thanks for noting that, and to those who were offended by my comments I apologize. My only desire was to have the best people there in order that a good solution is found. I have told others that can not attend I would be happy to carry a letter or list of their ideas with me. I have also noted some of the comments and suggestions found on this thread. I would also like to thank those that are going, I realize the time and expense is considerable. I am not sure why some think I have any more say on this than any other MCA member or judge. We always vote on changes and that is why I thought it important some of the who's who are there. Most of you are passionate about our hobby as am I and that is why I think it is worth the effort to try to fix things.
Marty
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Didn't want to single out anyone with regards to those comments, but I think they were pretty harsh and not the type of language that should be condoned. Going to this meeting is a $500+ investment to most who will be attending. I can think of a lot of better things to do with that kind of money.
The round-table format for the judge's meeting is an absolute waste of time as far as I'm concerned. Most judges could care less about a budget review or a presentation by a 3rd party vendor. Judges are interested in details and how they can learn more to further their own knowledge and help MCA's customers (members). This is why, when I was head judge, that we changed the format of the meeting to a 2 day education/seminar format. That's a much better service to the judges and members in my opinion. Such a shame that the seminar format was canned after I resigned.
With good assistant national head judges, there should be continuous improvements throughout the calendar year being recommended by Gold Card and Certified Judges. The assistant head/gold/certified judges really ought to be the foot soldiers, evaluating and considering improvements. Under this scenario, any annual round-table discussions should be between the national and assistant head judges to discuss what recommendations to send forth to the MCA BOD for approval.
One last thing about these round-table judge's meeting is that any voting that occurs is completely non-binding. We've had meetings with 25-30 in attendance and maybe 10 that aren't even judges. Is this the type of membership polling that fairly represents the opinions of other members? I know that in any given year, there are approximately 200-300 individual members that volunteer their time to judge. Should less than 10% of those be accountable for setting forth the judging program objectives?
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A friend Scott Behnche of West Cost Classic Cougar posted this on another forum. I thought it was quite good and some things that we all should be reminded of from time to time.
Brainstorming Rules
Effective brainstorming can be accomplished by following simple brainstorming do’s and don’ts with your team. A brainstorming session is a tool for generating as many ideas or solutions as possible to a problem or issue. It is not a tool for determining the best solution to a problem or issue.
Before beginning any effective brainstorming session, ground rules must be set. This does not mean that boundaries are set so tightly that you can’t have fun or be creative. It does mean that a code of conduct for person to person interactions has been set. It’s when this code of conduct is breached that people stop being creative.
The best way to have meaningful groundrules is to have the team create their own. Try performing a mini-brainstorming session around creating brainstorming groundrules. It should provide a nice opportunity to practice the skills necessary for an effective brainstorming session. This also allows the team to take ownership of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors. Only if the team hasn’t addressed the key groundrules should you (as the facilitator) add to the list. Once the groundrules list is generated, be sure to gain consensus that the session will be conducted according to them, and post them in a highly visible location in the room.
With that, here are four key groundrules that are useful when conducting a brainstorming session:
1. There are no dumb ideas. Period. It is a brainstorming session, not a serious matter that requires only serious solutions. Remember, this is one of the more fun tools of quality, so keep the entire team involved!
2. Don’t criticize other people’s ideas. This is not a debate, discussion or forum for one person to display superiority over another.
3. Build on other people’s ideas. Often an idea suggested by one person can trigger a bigger and/or better idea by another person. Or a variation of an idea on the board could be the next “velcro” idea. It is this building of ideas that leads to out of the box thinking and fantastic ideas.
4. Reverse the thought of “quality over quantity.” Here we want quantity; the more creative ideas the better. As a facilitator, you can even make it a challenge to come up with as many ideas as possible and compare this team’s performance to the last brainstorming session you conducted.
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Tim I'm sorry but I do not know you or your qualifications but if you read my post I listed those that I have judged with through the years and I mentioned there are more but I have not judged with them. I did not intentionally leave you out. But to answer your question I did not restore my two TBred cars but there is not one bolt, screw, or clamp I have not touched.
Rick
Charles, The good thing about our relationship is we can disagree and we are both OK with it. I appreciate that we can do that. One thing I think can be learned by many that would help all of these type disputes is to avoid as I call them "triangles". That is when someone hears something or says something about a situation to another without addressing the person directly. Pick up the phone and call them, it will resolve 98% before it comes to this. There are several involved in this thread that will attest to the fact that over the last year I have called to voice my concerns many times.
Rick, My comments are not meant against you personally in any way. They were for clarification. I dont feel slighted by not being named, my ego is not that big or easilly bruised. Its more to address where the opinions come from and how they are considered. I probably attended 30 MCA shows before I had a name to some other than Jeff's friend. I dont claim to have any more or less knowledge than anyone but I have invested thousands of dollors and my time to as Charles put it volunteer so I have a right to be heard and considered.
The second comment about if you have restored a car addresses Bob's comment about who can be a T bred judge. I dont think ownership alone is enough. Anyone with means could buy a car tomorrow and it doesnt have anything to do with qualifications. (again, that comment is not directed at you)
Marty,
Thank you for your apology. That didnt come across well even though I know what you meant
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Tim,
Damn now I know who you are..... Your that northerner that follows Jeff around...... ;)
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Charles, The good thing about our relationship is we can disagree and we are both OK with it. I appreciate that we can do that. One thing I think can be learned by many that would help all of these type disputes is to avoid as I call them "triangles". That is when someone hears something or says something about a situation to another without addressing the person directly. Pick up the phone and call them, it will resolve 98% before it comes to this. There are several involved in this thread that will attest to the fact that over the last year I have called to voice my concerns many times.
What exactly are we disagreeing on? lol!
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What exactly are we disagreeing on? lol!
usually not a lot ;D
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Mandatory Start Rule ?
It was brought to my attention at the Indy MCA National by a Thoroughbred participant that MCA had removed the exemption for THB and Unrestored class to start vehicle at registration. The same participant reported the MCA official at registration had a bad attitude and initially denied entry when he said he would not start the car as the original battery was dry. Shortly after the show it was learned the same MCA official with the bad attitude was the same individual who made the change on the MCA website without approval from MCA judges meeting, MCA judging committee or MCA BOD. In Orlando the same MCA official told me he did not need anyones approval for minor changes on website. Well, I don't believe this was a minor change or rule clarification! This issue needs to be addressed in Dallas job 1!
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There are very few change categories that do not need MCA BOD approval. A sweeping change as big as the no-start deduction should have been approved. Keep in mind that the original rule included Concours, Unrestored and T-bred.
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Whom would that jack a** ...Opps person be?
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There are only 2-3 people that have access to writing on the MCA website (at least that was the case when I was on the board), and I recognize only one individual on the MCA Internet Committee that was at the Orlando Show.
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..............change on the MCA website without approval from MCA judges meeting, MCA judging committee or MCA BOD. In Orlando the same MCA official told me he did not need anyones approval for minor changes on website. Well, I don't believe this was a minor change or rule clarification! ...........
IF its just a change on the web site then its not a change in the rules I guess since those require (always did in the last 30 years) the committee and BOD approval. But then the organization use to poll and get input from all the assistant head judges at least for major changes.
Only thing that didn't need approval as I understand was things that effected single classes like the color of a E brake handle and such. Orange peel and other rule changes that effected multiple classes 65-66 Concours Trailiered, 67-68 Concours Driven........ always had to go in for approval - the reason those changes had to be processed before the last board meeting.
I'm planning on bringing up/correcting the flash light usage rule. Somehow the wording got switched from what the motion was to what was approved based on what I heard at Show Judges Meetings earlier this year. :(
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What is the flashlight rule?
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What is the flashlight rule?
The motion was made and passed by those in attendance last year. Basically it allowed for the first time judges to use flashlights for shows/cars that were shown inside buildings at a National show. The idea behind this was it put the cars (those inside and out) on different levels making it difficult for the judges inside to see all the details they could if the car was outside.
One of the concerns IMHO ( I made the motion ;) was that an owner shows his/her car inside a couple of times and since many of the details are missed the car could possibly be rewarded a Gold for example. Then the following show the car is judges outside - short comings are discovered and the car is awarded a Bronze. Its easy to see how that would reflect on the judging team, the awards and the organization. Instead it made sense to head off these possible issues by allow the use of flashlights in those situations like many other organizations do in those and other situations.
This really all developed out of a Shelby Tim and I judged a number of times. At one point the owner provided a CD of pictures taken of the car in good light (in an effort to improve the car off season) and we discovered some major issues that had remained hidden due to the poor or lack of light at indoor shows - the only ones this car had participated in up to that point.
Motion was made for indoor use only - but somehow it got changed to judges could used them any time and in any conditions. Not the original intent nor vote. Should be quick and easy to fix IMHO
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Jeff,
Was there also something about using mirror's or is that just a bad rumor?
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Hey guys and gals
The meeting site will be at the Courtyard. It has been changed from AER.
As I am I'm charge of the meet and greet on Friday night I need to know how many of you guys will be staying over till Sat morning. It was not necessary to fill out an app but I do need a head count for dinner and the open bar.
Jeff
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Hi Jeff,
Count me in for all events including the board meeting on Sunday.
Bill Wirkus
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I arrive Thursday afternoon, leave out first thing Saturday morning.
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I'll be in late Thursday morning.
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I will be in Thursday mid morning.
jc
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Well to all safe travels and good luck at the meeting as it seems there is a lot to cover.
Tim, sorry I did not remember your name as I believe I judged Shelby's with you and Jeff awhile back. Again no disrespect to leaving you off of list. To your point it would be interesting to know who has restored any mustang to a thoroughbred level. Maybe they can chime in.
Rick
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How is the judges meeting going? Wish I was there, But at home working for free, Oh what fun it is!
Jake
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How is the judges meeting going? Wish I was there, But at home working for free, Oh what fun it is!
Jake
Good choice ;)
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Thanks to all of you that attended the MCA judges meeting last weekend. The meeting lasted over ten hours and much was done. It was also a testament to how sitting down face to face many of the issues can be resolved. I was impressed with the great attitude that everyone brought to the meeting. Even though much was done much more could be improved. I would challenge those that attended and those that did not to keep working on ideas to keep the MCA judging moving forward. I also want to say thanks to several of you that sent me emails with suggestions and ideas that I passed on to those in charge.
If you have ideas for next years judges meeting such as meeting locations and dates I would like to collect some to consider for next year.
To me one of the best of the out of the box or new ideas that came out of the meet was offered by forum member mgmradio, was that unrestored cars that have had a repaint or a engine rebuild at some point but other wise are untouched that under the current rules would be out of contention. The rules be adjusted so these cars have a place to compete and not be lost to restoration. Great idea.
Marty
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Thanks Marty.
I've been pitching that idea for at least 7 years now, but looks like we may get something done on it now.
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-- was that unrestored cars that have had a repaint or a engine rebuild at some point but other wise are untouched that under the current rules would be out of contention. The rules be adjusted so these cars have a place to compete and not be lost to restoration.
After 50 years (almost) of production an unrestored Mustang is rare, and in many cases deteriorated, not abused, just old. If "unrestored" cars are allowed to include re-painting or a rebuilt engine, where will it stop? Original paint has certain characteristics like the sheen and orange peel. An engine is a bit different, most of the engine is inside the block.
If the proposals are accepted, there should be documentation presented as to what was done, and maybe include detailed photographs. Remember, Ford was not building concourse cars.
Jim
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Although I cannot recall the cars year, there was a story of an original low mileage Mustang several years ago that had been painted either in the late 70's or early 80's. The car had been stored inside a house and over time had accrued its share of paint flaws because of its storage. Because at the time the car was simply viewed as an old Mustang, the car was repainted but otherwise completely original. The owners expressed that they did not show the car for the simple reason that it was no longer considered original and also not restored. The last I heard the car was back in storage.
Whatever the outcome of the suggestions, it seems a shame to miss out on these cars in one way or another.
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Thanks Marty.
I've been pitching that idea for at least 7 years now, but looks like we may get something done on it now.
Will be interesting to see what the finished class ( standards and rules) looks like but its great that you finally ;) got the "tweeners" a place.
"tweeners" is a term we've been using in discussions for years (one that Mike brought up numerous times) for the cars that fell be"tween" the classic unrestored and lightly restored cars. We've often gotten some of these cars to attend MCA shows but getting them to come out numerous times (not allot of benefit to the owners) has been difficult.
Good to see allot of you at the meeting - sorry that were were not many new faces in the crowd. Something that really needs to be fixed/improved. Allot of the members here have the knowledge base to start down the road of judging and an opportunity to share (in another medium) that knowledge with others.
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To me one of the best of the out of the box or new ideas that came out of the meet was offered by forum member mgmradio, was that unrestored cars that have had a repaint or a engine rebuild at some point but other wise are untouched that under the current rules would be out of contention. The rules be adjusted so these cars have a place to compete and not be lost to restoration.
It's not out of the box it's insane.
If a car has been painted it is NOT unrestored.
"Not lost to restoration"?? Once you paint - that ship has sailed!
If you allow a repaint in unrestored then you are telling folks it's OK to paint an unrestored car - What a TRAGEDY that would be!!!!!!
Original paint and patina gone forever. Dumbest idea I've ever heard!!!!!!!!!!
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It's not out of the box it's insane.
If a car has been painted it is NOT unrestored.
"Not lost to restoration"?? Once you paint - that ship has sailed!
If you allow a repaint in unrestored then you are telling folks it's OK to paint an unrestored car - What a TRAGEDY that would be!!!!!!
Original paint and patina gone forever. Dumbest idea I've ever heard!!!!!!!!!!
No need to get excited. I do not think the intent is to have these types of cars competing with the unrestored. More of a survivor/historic preservation class. I have been thinking today about how the mechanics of the class might work. It can not happen until we have agreed on how it would work. I hope some of you may have some ideas too.
Just because the paint or some other aspect is no longer in place in no reason to discard valuable piece of history.
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No on wants to discard these cars. My point is that once you've repainted - your restored. Start the conversation with Hey, we need a new class for these lightly restored vehicles that have only had a paint job. Don't start with Hey, let's talk about these "unrestored" cars that have been painted. The term unrestored should never be in the conversation regarding a vehicle that has been painted. If you are going to talk "survivor/historic preservation then mechanical/maintenance items should be allowed, but again not a repaint. To me that is just the line you cross once you've repainted - you're restored. Thanks
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It interesting that your comments mentioned "survivor" and "preservation" as we recently visited an open make show that included those two as sub "original"classes. Although I didn't pay that much attention to the exact rules, the survivor class was pre-1974, original, which meant only specified maintenance parts allowed, not a repaint btw, and had to have documented low mileage. I do not know what the mileage cut off was.
The preservation class also had a mileage clause that I know was 35k miles or less, did allow paint although I do not know if it was complete or partial as well as meeting the remaining "survivor" rules.
MCA, dedicated to the preservation, care, history and enjoyment of ALL ;D
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In the current unrestored class if more than 1/3 of the car has been painted or if the carpet has been changed the car can basically not be shown as unrestored even though the engine compartment and under carriage have been left intact. There are many cars with untouched engine compartments, interiors and under carriages that because of a minor accident or other reasons has had a compleat repaint and would other wise be very desirable cars. Most of the details we are interested in preserving and learning from is the actual mechanics and underside/ hidden details that these cars still posses. Original paint is nice , but I feel that it is the least valuable characteristic that we look at when trying to understand how these cars were built and the details of certain time periods at the different plants. Face it, the exterior paint was applied in a fairly consistent manner across the board .
It is a shame and a great loss to the judging and restoration community to lose these reference cars because of an earlier mistake .
The guide lines for this class have yet to be written . It would be my suggestion to make it a certification class similar to HPOF class in AACA , were a certain % of the car is original and not a competition class were it is judged against a point standard. This is the way most survivor classes are judged.
This would also give a place for the truly unrestored cars that have significant wear because of mileage or the conditions it was stored in.
If you have a problem with a class like this just ask Jeff what he has learned from all the cars he has checked out in the junk yards.
On the other hand I would also like to make changes to the current Unrestored class . Basically what I propose is to split it into 2 classes, Unrestored Thoroughbred for the cars that are extremely low mileage and judged as a TB ,and an Unrestored class for the higher mileage cars that are still nearly 100 % original but have had normal maintenance items replaced and have normal wear with slightly loosened rules like the difference between trailered and driven Concourse.
It is my feeling that by making these changes we will all benefit by saving and drawing more of these cars to the shows were they can be seen.
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Is the logic/perception that folks with one repaint, but otherwise minor flaws are not showing up to shows because there is not a class that caters directly to them?
And you don't think that the 7 main categories are enough? - Unrestored, Thoroughbred, Concours, Concours Driven, Occasional Driven, Daily Driven and Modified.
You want to break it down even more?
In the current unrestored class if more than 1/3 of the car has been painted or if the carpet has been changed the car can basically not be shown as unrestored even though the engine compartment and under carriage have been left intact.
Why do you state "basically not be shown"?
Under current rules in unrestored you can paint up to 2/3rds of the car and only get docked 50 points. That's still a silver with 20 points to spare and not counting any bonus points.
How is that not fair?
If you're painting more than that then it was not a minor accident or it was a choice.
I think the logic is off as to why these cars are being "lost".
Changing the rules is not going to magically make them reappear.
I think folks with cars of this nature just aren't all that into car shows.
They would rather cruise or do a drive-in show and that's why they aren't coming.
If you have a problem with a class like this just ask Jeff what he has learned from all the cars he has checked out in the junk yards.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a class like this" so I don't understand the correlation.
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Although I have no dog in this hunt, I tend to believe that the number of cars that would fall into this "yet to be determined" category would be few, possibly similar to a thoroughbred class at most shows. Like thoroughbreds though, they are out there. I think the paint discussion is taking focus away from these "tweener" cars.
I do agree that having a "class" wouldn't automatically mean more cars would participate, but as we have seen for years the older cars are making up less of the showfield each year and eventually will be a rare sight in a sea of newer examples.
I also agree that folks who do have these cars may not be interested in showing at all. This may be by choice or possibly because they don't feel they have chance. Obviously not everyone can win, but everyone can feel good about thier car.
There are many hairs that can be split in both directions here. The bottom line is, if carving out a place no matter how small opens a door for more enthusiasts to enjoy the hobby, then every effort should be exausted to accomodate them.
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Hopeto,
I probably wasn't clear enough in my earlier post. What I am proposing is to split the unrestored class into two classes ; Unrestored Thoroughbred with tighter %'s and requiring all assembly line parts and leaving the original unrestored as is with a few modifications such as tires and rubber parts replacement along with the shocks and exhaust that are currently allowed.
I am also proposing a new class for the "Tweeners" in the line of the AACA's HPOF class for the cars that are substantially original.
I don't consider a car that has only been repainted as having been restored. There are many reasons for a repaint and I have seen cars that were repainted at the dealership because the purchaser wanted a different color. Also some colors are hard to match so a repaint may have been called for. As I stated before, original paint is probably the least important feature that most of us want to study.
If making these changes just brings one or two new cars to the shows , than I see this a a big win for us all.
workhorse,
Obviously you get what I am proposing. I for one would like to see more of these cars at the shows.
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I don't consider a car that has only been repainted as having been restored.
You don't frequent e-bay often do you - "fully restored" is another word for "painted".
Jim
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Yes and just as many auctions with "original, unrestored" in the title line but when you read the description state "one repaint".
Both are ridiculous!
Sometimes you have to agree to disagree. ;)
Let's slightly change the subject.
If your goal is to increase attendance and pull more cars quit worrying about whether a repaint is a restored or unrestored or adding more classes.
Folks attend events and spend their hard earned money to have an enjoyable time and share some time with fellow car nuts.
They want to be treated with respect and be appreciated.
The classes/awards are secondary.
Just my 2 cents.
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Yes we can agree to disagree , but I will still do my best to bring these cars out anyway I can. If you have a better idea on how to do this then let's hear it. If not then please refrain from unproductive comments.
And by the way, I don't care what people put in there auction descriptions..... We are not trying to sell these cars or describe them as unrestored , just significantly original. Try reading what I wrote.
I do agree with you last statement , but not all attendees think that the awards are secondary.
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The problem, as I see it, for unrestored and tweeners is that MCA promotes competition for gold/silver/bronze for these cars. Because some folks can't make the points, they drop out of showing these cars at MCA. What MCA should be doing is promoting and encouraging these cars to attend as demonstrations of actual production runs for judges and others to learn from. A list by credible judges of what is likely not original should accompany the car in its showing so that those who examine the car for details would have a guide what may have been restored or refurbished. Forget the competition for these rare cars: they are what they are. The owners would probably love to have a gaggle of folks drool/salivate over various details all day long.
The competition should be reserved for those cars where actual work has been performed to make it a Thoroughbred, Concours, etc. An unrestored car should be in competition due them being what they are: a survivor or unrestored car. The owners should be highly encouraged to keep them that way. There's no way in which the owner could improve their condition to better their ability to compete, so why compete at all?
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The idea for the Tweeners cars is more of a certification than a points based system .
The true unrestoreds are already judged under a point based system , but I feel it needs to be tweaked so that the cars with higher mileage that have had maintenance part replaced can have a place also.
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I forwarded this thread to someone with a similar type car and recieved the following response. They did say it was o.k. to c&p here.
"Dear *****,
Thank you for your email, yes my father still owns the car you were referring to but is now at the age where he can no longer participate in many activities. Thank you for the link to the website, I have read what was said and would add just this. My dad was a lifelong Ford man. The car was purchased new and unlike todays cars, was well maintained. There was no need to travel far back then and on the occasion that we did travel, it was a Country Squire that took us there. Dads car has never been crashed and aside from normal wear and tear type items, has never needed a repair. It is just as dad bought it new.
Years ago our family surprised pop by having the car repainted in its original baby blue color. The hood, roof and trunk areas were badly worn from the sun and dads weekly washing with laundry detergent. The new paint energized dad and his love of the car.
We are not show folks by any means but dad did like to stop & walk around and tell me stories of the cars we would see at our local fast food places during summers past. I finally convinced him to let me take us out in the car to show it off a little. I thought he would get a charge out of talking with the other folks about his Mustang but it didn't turn out so well. The paint wasn't perfect, the parts were old and the bumpers weren't shiny like the others. I felt horrible with each comment we heard. Dads pride took a hit too I'm afraid.
I am not a car guy and couldn't find my way around a wrench for anything . I buy a car, drive the wheels off then replace. Probably not what you want to hear on a car website I'm sure. Dad on the other hand could fix anything and was always happy to chat up someone who would listen. The stories began to repeat themselves as time went by but like many I'm sure, we learn to appreciate them as we get older. I feel the same about dads car. There's nothing special about it, it's not a super rare race model type, but it's dads just as he bought it back when I was an infant and that’s enough for me.
I don't think dad would have been into the car show thing, but he would have been into the sitting around admiring cars and telling stories that got better with time. I suppose in the truest sense dads car is no longer just as he bought it, but to myself and my family it's even better because he got to enjoy it that much longer and we got to enjoy it with him."
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What a wonderful story!! But, you know, that's what is missing these days, the true sense of being able to go to a car show and joining the camaraderie among other Mustang enthusiast.
MCA is missing this terribly.
We did finally get to advance into the conservator class this year. But, after the past 7 years, all the MCA shows were being more of "work", than anything, no real fun and enjoyment.
The first thing I do on a Saturday morning, at an MCA function, is find the "unrestored's" then I enjoy looking at the THB's. What true works of "factory" art the unrestored's are, and the THB's are amazing works of art too.
I hope we find a place for the unrestored's with minimal work, for they are an amazing piece of History.
Just my 2 cents.