ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Drivetrain => Topic started by: 677litre on October 02, 2019, 04:34:49 PM
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I can't seem to find what the correct application this fuel pump would have been from.
It's for a Ford FE
It's a canister style button top mechanical unit. Has "CARTER" and U.S.A under it. Date code 21M7B (21st December 1967, second shift) part number is 4008SA no M in front like the repops out there.
Any ideas?? Would it work for a dual quad 428?
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I can't seem to find what the correct application this fuel pump would have been from.
It's for a Ford FE
It's a canister style button top mechanical unit. Has "CARTER" and U.S.A under it. Date code 21M7B (21st December 1967, second shift) part number is 4008SA no M in front like the repops out there.
Any ideas?? Would it work for a dual quad 428?
If the fuelpump in question has the FE pump arm and integral fuel filter then it will work for a duel quad 428 like used on 67 GT500 . However it is not assemblyline correct for that application. The CAR bur TER trademark along with the distinct button top design are both mandatory details for a assemblyline correct fuel pump used on 67 GT500. As you describe with Carter USA trademark,it is probably for a later year truck application.
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If the fuelpump in question has the FE pump arm and integral fuel filter then it will work for a duel quad 428 like used on 67 GT500 . However it is not assemblyline correct for that application. The CAR bur TER trademark along with the distinct button top design are both mandatory details for a assemblyline correct fuel pump used on 67 GT500. As you describe with Carter USA trademark,it is probably for a later year truck application.
So other than the CARTER U.S.A instead of CAR bur TER and the obvious part number difference it appears identical and with a 67 build date code. It would be interesting to know at what point in 67 they change to the CARTER usa and CARTER Canada.
So what's the correct part number for the 67 GT500 dual quads?
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So other than the CARTER U.S.A instead of CAR bur TER and the obvious part number difference it appears identical and with a 67 build date code. It would be interesting to know at what point in 67 they change to the CARTER usa and CARTER Canada.
So what's the correct part number for the 67 GT500 dual quads?
The Carter USA trademark was typically seen in the 68 model year. Of course production dates in 1967 would be needed for 1968 production cars. A Dec 67 date code was long after 67 production ceased. C6OE 9350 C is the the correct part number for the 67 GT500 dual quads .
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The Carter USA trademark was typically seen in the 68 model year. Of course production dates in 1967 would be needed for 1968 production cars. A Dec 67 date code was long after 67 production ceased. C6OE 9350 C is the the correct part number for the 67 GT500 dual quads .
Thanks, do you know off hand the correct Carter part number?
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Thanks, do you know off hand the correct Carter part number?
Guess your asking for a current carter number rather than the one used from the 60's. Unfortunately any current Carter will look nothing like an original nor have a built in fuel filter
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Guess your asking for a current carter number rather than the one used from the 60's. Unfortunately any current Carter will look nothing like an original nor have a built in fuel filter
No actually looking for the 60s Carter proper part number, I didn't see it in your previous reply, unless I miss something?
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No actually looking for the 60s Carter proper part number, I didn't see it in your previous reply, unless I miss something?
Yes,you missed the name of the person Jeff Speegle who had not previously posted on this thread. I suppose you didn't look at the names of the people posting and got mixed up. I was the person you were interacting with previously and have just now gotten time to get back to post on this thread. The Carter part number would most likely have a different after market equivalent to the Ford part so I wasn't interested in researching that number . I am guessing you mean the number on the flange used for identification . The flange number on the 67 GT500 fuel pumps were 3909-S early and 4314-S for later 67 production. All other pumps fall into the "sort of like comparable " and could be considered the next best thing depending on how many details are like the genuine.
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Yes,you missed the name of the person Jeff Speegle who had not previously posted on this thread. I suppose you didn't look at the names of the people posting and got mixed up. I was the person you were interacting with previously and have just now gotten time to get back to post on this thread. The Carter part number would most likely have a different after market equivalent to the Ford part so I wasn't interested in researching that number . I am guessing you mean the number on the flange used for identification . The flange number on the 67 GT500 fuel pumps were 3909-S early and 4314-S for later 67 production. All other pumps fall into the "sort of like comparable " and could be considered the next best thing depending on how many details are like the genuine.
Thanks Bob I appreciate the information. Yes I was having a hard time reading the post on my phone screen at the time. This site comes up so small and hard to read, lol. Was able to read the thread on the PC today. All good.
I'm still kinda bummed I can't find reference to my pump's part number I have anywhere, Carter 4008SA. You'd think if it was on a truck in 67/68 it would be a common Carter part number.
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Thanks Bob I appreciate the information. Yes I was having a hard time reading the post on my phone screen at the time. This site comes up so small and hard to read, lol. Was able to read the thread on the PC today. All good.
I'm still kinda bummed I can't find reference to my pump's part number I have anywhere, Carter 4008SA. You'd think if it was on a truck in 67/68 it would be a common Carter part number.
There are not too many applications that need a fuel filter made into the fuel pump because after 1965 the fuel filter is more commonly at the carburetor . Not so on 67 GT500 and many later trucks apparently which is why the guess.
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I'm still kinda bummed I can't find reference to my pump's part number I have anywhere, Carter 4008SA. You'd think if it was on a truck in 67/68 it would be a common Carter part number.
One of our challenges is that most of us use or have MPC's for passenger cars and not for the trunk line. You might find your answer over on one of the Ford truck sites that cover or focus on the 60's. Other option would be to find someone with a counter parts book from Carter from the time period. It might include the ID number as well as the Carter part number. Unfortunately they don't appear to be the same
Just a couple of possibilities
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I believe that I can help throw some fuel on the fire here.
I actually do have most every Ford MPC for many eras of Ford production throughout the years. I even learned to read and understand the books over the many years that I was a parts manager for Ford and Lincoln-Mercury dealers. ;) I just looked up the pump in question in the 1964/1972 Ford truck book and, of course, it is not listed there. From what I have been able to ascertain, the 4008-SA number seems to be a service replacement number but the date code on the pump does not fit that scenario. The M section of the 4008-SA number will only be found on a Carter box and I believe that the M relates to mechanical as compared to electric.
I encourage constructive criticism here as I am always open to learning new things.
-Fred-
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Thanks Fred since I think that few of us (as mentioned) have the truck MPCs
Maybe 677litre will luck out and someone will have a Carter catalog with something in it.
Guess it will continue to be a mystery at least for now
May split your last post about the lettering of the case out to a new discussion - will give it some thoughts as that may promote more discussion, not take us off thread and will make finding related info easier in the future
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Summit shows a whole host of low performance FE and 292 applications for the M4008 pump:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-m4008/applications/
I think its an aftermarket pump from back in the day that is still popular enough to make.
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CARbureTER / CARTER change over discussion has been split off and continues in the thread below
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=21149.0 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=21149.0)
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I believe that I can help throw some fuel on the fire here.
I actually do have most every Ford MPC for many eras of Ford production throughout the years. I even learned to read and understand the books over the many years that I was a parts manager for Ford and Lincoln-Mercury dealers. ;) I just looked up the pump in question in the 1964/1972 Ford truck book and, of course, it is not listed there. From what I have been able to ascertain, the 4008-SA number seems to be a service replacement number but the date code on the pump does not fit that scenario. The M section of the 4008-SA number will only be found on a Carter box and I believe that the M relates to mechanical as compared to electric.
I encourage constructive criticism here as I am always open to learning new things.
-Fred-
I agree that it appears to be a over the counter service replacement number. I'm guessing it might be a really early rebuilt unit perhaps? Did they rebuild old units and resell them back in the day or could you buy new replacement pumps over the counter back in 67? When did the Carter with just USA not made in USA under it start casting?
I guess my next question is what are the PSI and GPH fuel requirements for the dual quad 428?
I'm curious if this one could be modified to better output? Just the internal diaphragms that are different from a 3909SA 3910SA unit?
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I agree that it appears to be a over the counter service replacement number. I'm guessing it might be a really early rebuilt unit perhaps? Did they rebuild old units and resell them back in the day or could you buy new replacement pumps over the counter back in 67?
Both rebuilt and new were available
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677litre can you post a side shot picture showing your complete fuelpump?
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The high volume pumps have a stiffer spring and more check valves to provide a greater flow while maintaining the same pressure. Not sure if there ever was a high volume pump in that style. A skilled machinist could create pockets for additional check valves on any of these pumps and substitute the stiffer spring. The diaphragms are the same regardless.
I agree that it appears to be a over the counter service replacement number. I'm guessing it might be a really early rebuilt unit perhaps? Did they rebuild old units and resell them back in the day or could you buy new replacement pumps over the counter back in 67? When did the Carter with just USA not made in USA under it start casting?
I guess my next question is what are the PSI and GPH fuel requirements for the dual quad 428?
I'm curious if this one could be modified to better output? Just the internal diaphragms that are different from a 3909SA 3910SA unit?
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The crimp together pumps use the same built in return spring on the internal diaphragm regardless of application. I have personally checked the spring pressures from both Hipo and standard original pumps that I have restored. I was surprised myself that there was no difference in spring pressure and I had checked quite a few. The Hipo 289 pumps added the extra external spring to help keep up with the higher RPM.
On a similar thought regarding engine RPM, at 6,000 RPM your pistons are moving up and down inside your cylinders 100 times per second. Your valves and fuel pump are moving 50 times per second. 6,000 RPM is not totally crazy until you realize the strain you are putting on your engine components. How does this all hang together most of the time? And this is only 6,000 RPM!! Sometimes it does not. So think about this when you beat on your vintage serial numbered and date coded components. One of my regular customers just lost his original date coded and VIN stamped Hipo 289 to pieces that did not hang together and at less RPM.
-Fred-
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Agree - I do not think there ever was a high volume crimp together pump.
The crimp together pumps use the same built in return spring on the internal diaphragm regardless of application. I have personally check the springs from both Hipo and standard original pumps that I have restored. I was surprised myself that there was no difference in spring pressure and I had checked quite a few. The Hipo 289 pumps added the extra spring to help keep up with the higher RPM.
On a similar thought regarding engine RPM, at 6,000 RPM your pistons are moving up and down inside your cylinders 100 times per second. Your valves and fuel pump are moving 50 times per second. 6,000 RPM is not totally crazy until you realize the strain you are putting on your engine components. How does this all hang together most of the time? And this is only 6,000 RPM!! Sometimes it does not. So think about this when you beat on your vintage serial numbered and date coded components. One of my regular customers just lost his original date coded and VIN stamped Hipo 289 to pieces that did not hang together and at less RPM.
-Fred-
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The crimp together pumps use the same built in return spring on the internal diaphragm regardless of application. I have personally checked the spring pressures from both Hipo and standard original pumps that I have restored. I was surprised myself that there was no difference in spring pressure and I had checked quite a few. The Hipo 289 pumps added the extra external spring to help keep up with the higher RPM.
On a similar thought regarding engine RPM, at 6,000 RPM your pistons are moving up and down inside your cylinders 100 times per second. Your valves and fuel pump are moving 50 times per second. 6,000 RPM is not totally crazy until you realize the strain you are putting on your engine components. How does this all hang together most of the time? And this is only 6,000 RPM!! Sometimes it does not. So think about this when you beat on your vintage serial numbered and date coded components. One of my regular customers just lost his original date coded and VIN stamped Hipo 289 to pieces that did not hang together and at less RPM.
-Fred-
Thanks for the input guys, I'm just trying to learn all the correct stuff. Trying to build the motor the way the factory did just for my own piece of mind. :) Just for looks I'd like to restore and use this pump, if possible, since I have it but if it's not going to be able to handle a healthy 428 with dual 600 Holley's it's not worth it. FYI, Sunday show car, it's not a race car but obviously want it to live up to the 428 name. ;)
So we know a canister pump was used on the GT500 428 in 67 at least. Would it have been just a regular rated pump used on some other model 428s? Appears some Thunderbird and Galaxies 428s in 67 came with this, some didn't depending if it was dual carb or not. Man Ford did some confusing stuff. ::)
Here are some pics I sent Royce who has some good insight, I'm just open to all opinions. :) It really needs a good clean up but the internals check out so far from the little I could test it. It's not bent or anything, the one pic is just on an angle.
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677litre, keep in mind that back in the day, we used electric pusher pumps back by the fuel tank if we had concerns for fuel volume. Also keep in mind that todays fuels will find any weakness in your fuel pump, and usually when you least expect it or need the issue. The handy thing about these pumps is the location of the breather hole for the diaphragm. It is facing towards the exhaust so make sure that you carry a fire extinguisher in case the diaphragm ruptures. ;) I am just trying to point out a potential issue and I am not really trying to make light of a potentially serious situation.
-Fred-
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Thanks for the input guys, I'm just trying to learn all the correct stuff. Trying to build the motor the way the factory did just for my own piece of mind. :) Just for looks I'd like to restore and use this pump, if possible, since I have it but if it's not going to be able to handle a healthy 428 with dual 600 Holley's it's not worth it. FYI, Sunday show car, it's not a race car but obviously want it to live up to the 428 name. ;)
So we know a canister pump was used on the GT500 428 in 67 at least. Would it have been just a regular rated pump used on some other model 428s? Appears some Thunderbird and Galaxies 428s in 67 came with this, some didn't depending if it was dual carb or not. Man Ford did some confusing stuff. ::)
Here are some pics I sent Royce who has some good insight, I'm just open to all opinions. :) It really needs a good clean up but the internals check out so far from the little I could test it. It's not bent or anything, the one pic is just on an angle.
Like I said before the FE canister fuelpumps were used mainly on trucks and not typically on passenger cars other then the 67 GT500. The other passenger vehicles had a fuel filter at the carburetor so no need for the filter at the fuel pump. Also the pump you have appears to have a 3/8 inch inlet which indicates it is a 1968 and later unit. The 3/8 is better for fuel volume but the smaller 5/16 is what was used in 1967 model year. It would be a next best alternative fuelpump to the genuine IMO.
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Thanks for the input guys, I'm just trying to learn all the correct stuff. Trying to build the motor the way the factory did just for my own piece of mind. :) Just for looks I'd like to restore and use this pump, if possible, since I have it but if it's not going to be able to handle a healthy 428 with dual 600 Holley's it's not worth it. FYI, Sunday show car, it's not a race car but obviously want it to live up to the 428 name. ;)
So we know a canister pump was used on the GT500 428 in 67 at least. Would it have been just a regular rated pump used on some other model 428s? Appears some Thunderbird and Galaxies 428s in 67 came with this, some didn't depending if it was dual carb or not. Man Ford did some confusing stuff. ::)
Here are some pics I sent Royce who has some good insight, I'm just open to all opinions. :) It really needs a good clean up but the internals check out so far from the little I could test it. It's not bent or anything, the one pic is just on an angle.
Your pump does have a bend in it where the canister base attaches to the rest of the fuel section. I have repaired them with a much greater bend but you need to be careful that you do not crack the base piece above the canister. You are fortunate that you have a 5/16" inlet nipple as that is correct for 1967. As Bob stated if it was 3/8" it would be for 1968 and later.
-Fred-
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Your pump does have a bend in it where the canister base attaches to the rest of the fuel section. I have repaired them with a much greater bend but you need to be careful that you do not crack the base piece above the canister. You are fortunate that you have a 5/16" inlet nipple as that is correct for 1967. As Bob stated if it was 3/8" it would be for 1968 and later.
-Fred-
Fred,it looks like a 3/8 68 pump to me. It can of course be hard to tell without holding it in your hand at least for me. I think so because the 5/16 inlet opening is about the same size as the opening on the outlet side. The 3/8 on the other hand is bigger when compared to the outlet opening as seen in the OP's picture. I took a picture of a 5/16 pump (lower) and place a 3/8 SB pump above so as to illustrate the difference. Sorry I don't have a 68 style FE 4008 pump for a direct comparison .
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So when did the later version 4314-S fuel pump on a 67 GT500 start month wise?
I have an assembly line version dated 27F6A, isn't that June27/66 first shift?