ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Parts => Topic started by: 196667Bob on July 27, 2021, 02:51:40 AM
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At least according to the Part Number, B 12145, this same part should apply to 1965-73 Mustangs (and many other pre - 1965 Fords). Does anyone have any documentation as to its finish, if any ? I have not been able to come up with any NOS Service Parts (which of course may or may not have the same finish as Assembly Line parts), and the reproductions only add more questions. Some that I have seen appear to be either plain finish or zinc plated (the description does not state) , and others, in particular those sold by NPD, appear to have a finish similar to zinc dichromate. NPD does make it clear that the rivets they offer, are not "concourse correct".
Hopefully, someone can substantiate what the original finish should be.
Thanks, in advance, for any help.
Bob
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The ones from NPD are actually brass. I have not been able to document this detail with certainty (started a thread here on it a while back) but have been told that the later model years, like '69-'70, were dichromate (gold). I think that the earlier ones, like '65-'67 were zinc. What I don't know is the changeover time frame.
I don't find traces of gold on any of them that I have worked on, but I do have pictures of NOS '69 - '70 distributors with the gold pins. These, of course, are later built service parts.
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I have had numerous NOS units from the 60's and seen many more over the years. Many times but not always the pins had a slight goldish greenish hue . I get the impression that whatever they were coated with was thin and would wear off or corrode off quickly once exposed to engine compartment environment .The pins are so small it is hard to pick up on the detail in pictures. It does not look like the typical zinc dichromate . It is a mystery that I would like to hear about solved.
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Jim and Bob : Thanks for your input.
Bob, yes, I agree that is a much lighter coating than normal zinc dichromate, And appears to be more of a "wash", which would explain why it wears off so easily.
Hopefully, we'll get some more input on this so we can answer this question.
Bob
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The MCA rules for 65-66 Shelby specify the pin as being "green". I took that to be zinc chromate.
Regards,
Scott
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The MCA rules for 65-66 Shelby specify the pin as being "green". I took that to be zinc chromate.
Regards,
Scott
Zinc chromate does not define what the finish looks like. Zinc is silver and chromate by itself is clear. A chromate when applied over zinc gives it added corrosion protection. There are many colors of chromate, gold ,black ,olive drab just to name just a few of the more common.
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i do not have pics but the nos ones i have seen had an olive drab look to them. don't know how that look was achieved.
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Correction:Ford calls it zinc with O.D. chromate (S43). The aircraft industry used to call it zinc chromate which is an olive colored rust preventative coating.
Regards,
Scott
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That reminds me of black chromate. Just like the seat plates.
It has black, green and other colors. A bit rainbow-ish like the gold chromate.
A lot of the color differences depend on how long it's in the chromate.
If you want a lot of green, then olive drab chromate.
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Ones I have on 67-69, from the same production period (not later NOS), that show zinc dichromate with a green tint similar to what we see on things like Ported Vacuum Switches and some thermactor parts
Found this picture already uploaded
Believe I posted others pictures in at least one other thread showing this. Will look and see if I can find that thread Or I'll drag out some examples and take better shots of the head of the pin and post
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/14/6-010620182656.jpeg)
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Ones I have on 67-69, from the same production period (not later NOS), that show zinc dichromate with a green tint similar to what we see on things like Ported Vacuum Switches and some thermactor parts
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/14/6-010620182656.jpeg)
That pin looks too green to be like the ported vacuum tree (gold/yellow chromate ) IMO. It looks more like olive drab to me.
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That pin looks too green to be like the ported vacuum tree (gold/yellow chromate ) IMO. It looks more like olive drab to me.
Don't judge the color from that poor picture. For me its not even close to the olive daub one would see on screw clips and the like. Way too flat and think of a coating IMHO.
This is very translusant
Will provide more and better pictures once I get some examples out. Shafts should pull out with little effort so we can see more surface area. Might throw a few in my pocket and bring them with me this week when I see you
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Scott : Thanks for joining in on this topic. Just to ?set the record straight?, you do not have any Ford documentation on the finish of the B 12145 rivets, but are basing your comments on the 1965-66 Shelby MCA judging Rules, and possibly your observations (?), correct ?
Interestingly, before starting this thread, I had looked at the MCA Rules for MUSTANGS, but not for Shelbys. After reading your Post, I went back and looked at the Shelby Rules. What stands out is that only the 1965-66 Shelby Rules address the ?green? rivet. IMO, the ?green? rivet should apply to all models from early 50?s up through even 1983 on some models. I believe that MCA should revisit the rules and include the ?green? statement in all 1965-73 Judging Rules.
As for the finish that produces the ?green? look, I am curious as to where you found that S43 for pre-1975. The July 1959 Corporate Standard Parts book skips from S42 to S45 ; the 1969 Ford Standard & Utility Parts Catalog stops at S42 ; the 1975 S&UPC does list S43 with the description of ?Zinc Chromate (as you initially noted) ; and the 2004 S&UPC lists S43 and S43B (zinc chromate-black). In addition, the 2004 S&UPC also notes some finishes with a 3 digit suffix. Of these, the S414 appears to be the ?Olive Drab Zinc Chromate finish.
Don?t get me wrong, I?m not disputing that the B12145 rivets should exhibit a ?greenish tint?, I just think that all years should. I find it odd though, that the olive drab zinc chromate finish isn?t actually listed until later ; possibly before the S414 being actually listed, Ford considered this a ?Special Finish?. Even my 50?s cars exhibit the greenish silver tint, although on some, the green has somewhat ?vanished? over the years, and the rivets actually appear like Aluminum, although they are steel.
Finally, I did a little more digging into the reproduction B12145?s. After contacting several suppliers, I found, at least to this point, that they are only available in Brass, or Nickel plated. The pictures ofb the rivets that Mac?s has posted make them appear to be almost correct (less the green tint), but after contacting them, they noted that they are Nickel plated.
Bob
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Ford engineering could change the source document for any part at any time for any number of reasons, in this case, material and/or finish, as long as it did not change the form, fit or function (a government term used for interchangeability). The changes would be reflected on the source document, which we do not have access to. As a general rule, the revision on the source document of the change is not part of the part number (B 12145), a generally good practice.
When the part was not backwards compatible, Ford made a new dash number for its identification (In this case the part number could be "B 12145-1" or "B 12145-A".)
As this is a service number, there is no reason to confuse their service departments with a lot of extraneous information. All the guy in the service department wants is the part.
Jim
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Bob, The S43 is from the first Standard parts catalogs I pulled from my shelf. In this case 1976. Didn't look at any others. I have 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1976, 1982, 2005 & 2006. The 65-66 Shelby MCA rules are what started me on this path as I was working on re-writing the 65-66 Mustang MCA rules. I am the current MCA assistant national head judge (ANHJ) for 64 1/2-66 Mustang. Ron Wheeler (MCA's ANHJ for Shelby's) had talked to me a couple years ago about integrating the more detailed 65-66 Mustang concours rules into the Shelby rules. I wrote a combined set of rules for him last year and in doing so found some items in the 65-66 Shelby rules missing from the 65-66 Mustang rules.
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Scott : Thanks for the clarifications.
Just seems to me that, based on what I have seen over the years, the "greenish tint" should apply to a lot more than just 1965-66 years.
Bob
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Scott : Thanks for the clarifications.
Just seems to me that, based on what I have seen over the years, the "greenish tint" should apply to a lot more than just 1965-66 years.
Bob
+1 It should because it does.
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Then shouldn't the MCA Judging Rules be revised to reflect that for all years, not just 1965-66 Shelbys ?
Bob
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Then shouldn't the MCA Judging Rules be revised to reflect that for all years, not just 1965-66 Shelbys ?
Bob
This was addressed about 10 or so years back when I was NHJ. We took all the sheets and made them consistent across the board, mostly in section wording and points allocated, even up into 4th generation. Since I stepped down, there has been some 'creep' in the rules as they have been revised many times since then and sometimes the changes aren't propagated to all years. It's hard to reel it back in, but I think Scott is on the right track in collaborating with the Shelby ANHJ. Basically, it comes down to someone taking the time to look at the bigger picture and ensure consistency.
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Charles : Thanks for your input. I believe you are correct ; it's taking the time to be consistent.
Bob
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This was addressed about 10 or so years back when I was NHJ. We took all the sheets and made them consistent across the board, mostly in section wording and points allocated, even up into 4th generation. Since I stepped down, there has been some 'creep' in the rules as they have been revised many times since then and sometimes the changes aren't propagated to all years. It's hard to reel it back in, but I think Scott is on the right track in collaborating with the Shelby ANHJ. Basically, it comes down to someone taking the time to look at the bigger picture and ensure consistency.
Unfortunately the consistency across all classes went out the window when the 65-66 guys completely re-wrote the body fit and finish section some years ago. No one else wanted to go to the line by line setup that was done for 65-66. There is resistance to changing any rules in certain classes regardless of the new knowledge gained.
Now back to the pin finish debate... had the boss dig into the collection of low mileage original cars and here is what he found:
1st image 65 Galaxie 14 miles. Described as "slightly goldish but could be patina"
2nd image 65 Mustang 6 cyl 1800 miles. "This is the shot that almost caused me to think that the rivet was the same finish as the clamp itself."
3rd image 69 Mark III, 3500 miles
4th image 70 Mach 1 5200 miles. "Looks silver to me. Perkins had the motor out to detail, but I doubt he touched the hold down clamp pins."
5th image 70 F100 44 miles. "It has a 'hint' of goldish tone to it. But just barely a hint."
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'Unfortunately the consistency across all classes went out the window when the 65-66 guys completely re-wrote the body fit and finish section some years ago. No one else wanted to go to the line by line setup that was done for 65-66.'
i was against this from the start. too cumbersome/time consuming. we were doing fine before that in that area. obviously i was outvoted.
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Scott
As I said at the beginning, I haven't seen a trace of color on the many original distributors that I have worked on or disassembled (all FE distributors, BTW). You would think that the portion of the pin under the pivots would retain some original finish (if there were some).
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a couple questions no one has asked yet.....were all distributors made at the same place??
any variance in colors between big block & smallblock?
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Scott : Thanks for the further explanations and pictures. Based on the pictures, it appears that the majority of the rivets were just plain dull silver. That would explain why the many I have seen that I thought the green tint had just "gone away" with time, appears just dull silver, because they were.
Of course that some supplier's finish could have had a green tint to it, but wouldn't explain why all 1965-66 Shelby's have to have a "greenish tint".
Thanks again,
Bob
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Scott
As I said at the beginning, I haven't seen a trace of color on the many original distributors that I have worked on or disassembled (all FE distributors, BTW). You would think that the portion of the pin under the pivots would retain some original finish (if there were some).
That's kinda what the field trip into the car collection was about. I didn't originally tell Rick what color I was looking for, only trying to see if there was a finish on the rivets. Rick checked again and he can find no trace of green on any car/truck and the only color is as he noted in the first run through. I'm not seeing any way to substantiate a "must be green" rule.
The distributors would have been assembled at one of the Ford component parts plants or an Autolite plant. Made some calls and no one at Ford, so far, has any clue. Submitted the question to the Benson library and I am awaiting a response.
Regards,
Scott
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So my Ford engineer friend came through for me. He located the blueprint for the B-12145 rivet. According to my friend the blueprint shows 2 materials; SAE CA260 brass and SAE 1010 steel. The coating is listed as zinc plate ESF-M1P4-A.
Regards,
Scott
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So my Ford engineer friend came through for me. He located the blueprint for the B-12145 rivet. According to my friend the blueprint shows 2 materials; SAE CA260 brass and SAE 1010 steel. The coating is listed as zinc plate ESF-M1P4-A.
Regards,
Scott
I for one have not seen any in brass before. The obvious question is can you find a further description of what ESF-M1P4-A looks like . It didn't show up in the search's that I tried.
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Not the look, just a pic from a stds doc:
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Finally got out to the small stack of original distributors as promised
The picture on the left best represents what I found on a couple of dozen units built in 68-69 and given to a high school for their usage so these have been stored well. In the upper right some have the plating/coating changing (were not like this ten years ago) and are turning a chalky yellow. Don't know why
Original coating is very thin and the goldish with a slight tint of green as I've seen on others. Believe describing them as "green" by itself would be historically incorrect just as it would be to describe, by itself, carburetors, ported vacuum switches, some emission parts and tubing
End of the clip and how they were finished off is just an addition detail I thought I would include
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/15/6-100821213920-158332249.jpeg)
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Couple more from others I've posted before. Unfortunately from the end of the pin but still shows color/coating
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/15/6-100821230833-15835898.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/15/6-100821230831-158341432.jpeg)
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I think I mentioned earlier that I see similar color in a photo I have of an 0H dated NOS Boss 429 distributor, but whatever that coating is must not have survived for long in the real world. It is a pretty cool looking detail and I have been coloring the pins a goldish color on the 1969 and 1970 distributors I have restored. Remains debatable as to whether this is concourse correct though IMO.
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According to a number of posts at finishes.com one cause is
"The yellowish discoloration could be due to the parts being processed in an alkaline non cyanide zinc solution that uses older (non polymer) brightener technology. This would be typical. The "fix" is a 0.5% nitric acid pre-dip before the chromate, use of a "very blue" trivalent chromate and close control of the chromate pH."
I've also seen references that say "the most common cause of a trivalent passivate yellowing is too much iron in the passivation tank."
I'm not saying these are the causes here, but yellowing of zinc appears to be an issue mentioned many times using a variety of zinc processes.
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I traced the "B-12145" part number back as far as 1928. It is possible the part started as brass and at some point the spec changed to allow for zinc plated steel. I was not given that detailed info from the blueprint. I think it is safe to say that the rivet was steel in the mid-60's and onward.
Bossbill's info is interesting. I'd be curious as to the time it would take for the yellowing to occur in the situations noted.
Regards,
Scott
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I'm not saying these are the causes here, but yellowing of zinc appears to be an issue mentioned many times using a variety of zinc processes.
I think that may be why a couple of my examples turned a yellow though still not convinced (see below) - can be felt and wiped but the vast majority have the coating as shown
Also note that none of the other zinc plated items attached at the same time do not show the chalky yellowing so think it has to do with the coating rather than the zinc.