ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Body, Paint & Sealers => Topic started by: koski19 on May 22, 2013, 10:01:30 AM
-
Hey Guys....Needs some input here.
Spent another day talking with paint and body shops and I have become undecided as to which way to strip down my Mustang and I am hoping you'll provide some guidance so I can make a decision.
Some have said not to chemically strip the car i.e. using aircraft stripper and others say not to media blast, chemically dip the uni body or sand blast the car. Reason I've heard are that chemical stripping leaves a residue on the body that can interact with the paint going on and media blasting can distort the metal. Also, media blasting can leave some of the media in the metal that can affect the paint as well.
Most have said to sand the paint already on it, smooth the panels and apply the paint. This would be ok with me if I knew what was underneath.
I would really like to see what the foundation of this car is, repair any sheet metal that needs fixing, prep the body and send to the paint shop. I'll not paint the car in my shop. Not setup for it.
No one has addressed the underside of the panels such as the fenders and exterior floor pans, wheel wells etc as far as priming and painting. Looks like the interior of my Mustang has a red oxide primer, followed by a black paint for the dash and doors. The interior originally was black. Was this a black lacquer?
To date, the transmission is at the trans shop and the engine is at the machine shop. The body will need to wait until I have made a decision on which way to go on preparing it for paint.
What paints or colors where used for the engine brackets? The block, head and air cleaner are blue but is that old Ford Blue? New Ford Blue or Corporate Ford Blue? Seems to be many "Blue" ford colors. The engine bay, was that a black, black gloss or semi-gloss? Was the transmission C-4
painted or left natural?
Thanks for your replies........Jeff
-
I'd recommend media blasting, preferably with plastic media on the outer surfaces and then use an abrasive like Dupont star-blast on the rest of it.
Need to decide if you're going to do a full rotisserie restoration or just a rolling restoration. That will determine how much of the car is stripped to bare metal. If just rolling, you can still have inside the car, inside the trunk and the engine bay stripped. Kind of doesn't leave much left, which is why sometimes cars are taken to a higher level of restoration.
Once the car is stripped clean, you should have a better idea of what needs to be done as far as sheet metal repair.
-
Once the car is stripped clean, you should have a better idea of what needs to be done as far as sheet metal repair.
IMHO I would never dip a car again. Depending on what your starting out with (how untouched and rust free if very helpful - if possible - to leave as much of the original sound deadener and sealer since it can be a pain to get right the first time
As Charles wrote - stripping is the first step as it will allow you to discover what has really taken place since the car was new - hope your findings are uneventfull
-
Thanks for your replies. I have decided to media blast the car using walnut shell.
After talking with RDW the local mustang restoration shop and a couple of body shops
Media blasting is the way to go. My car leaves next week.
EDS Media Blasting with pickup the car, media blast 6-8 hrs depending on the condition and layers of paint
and return the car. $80.00 hr. Seems reasonable.
I spent alot of time this week with body and paint shops, local mustang restoration shop and custom car shops
along with this forum to come to a decision on what the best way is to strip down the car. It has been an education.
Jeff
-
Keep in mind that walnut shells will not remove rust. So, you'll need to let the blaster know to use something more abrasive to get rust out. Also, ask them not to use walnut shells inside the trunk/interior/engine bay as those areas are usually where you will find rust and it would be a waste to use walnut shells on it. This might help keep cost down as walnut shells are more expensive than a general purpose media, like DuPont starblast.
-
Thanks Charles for the additional info.
-
I have my unibody on the rotisserie right now and am going through this "how to remove paint" decision right now. MY LABOR is free, so after a little experimenting, I have decided that a combination of twisted SS wire cup and rags with lacquer thinner is the least expensive and gives the best results ON THE INTERIOR FLOOR PANS, ENGINE BAY AND UNDERNEATH SIDE OF THE CAR. I am NOT going to do this to the body panels though.
For body panels, I will probably use a light application of aircraft stripper to soften it a little and then scrape with razor blades. Last I will D/A it with 80 grit after wiping down the panels with rags soaked with something to neutralize the stripper. I will not let any liquid get within 1" of any panel joint or overlap. That will keep the stripper from wicking into nooks and crannies.
I don't want to, but I will have to media blast some areas that are inaccessible using any other means, but it's use will be very limited. No matter how hard you try, you can't keep trapped media from finding its way out and into your topcoat.
It's unbelievable how good the condition of the metal is in. My frame rails and floor pans look almost new. The factory drips from the belly will be very hard to re-create. Each one had a bubble in its low point that "popped" and left a crater as the primer was heat cured. I had considered just applying DP-75 over them but decided I'd just remove all the way to the metal and try to get "close" to the same look...SOMEHOW.
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/frttoback_zpsbc1cf035.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/wideview_zpsf700ddb7.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/panclose_zpsc31f895f.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/railrealclose_zps5c9bfd98.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/bubbles_zps6e7b3b5b.jpg)
-
I used this same method with good results. Doing you own blasting is a good way to save also. You need alot of air to do it however. I rented one of those portable air compressors like you see at construction sites and did most of the car on a Saturday afternoon.
-
Very nice work and looks in V.good condition.
I'm also using the same methodology on my 70 Mach 1 and although labour intensive, you get the satisfaction of seeing what you have at close hand.
The only thing I have found is that that in areas like around the rear spring hangers you will need blasting.
Chris, England.
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p536/silverfox1001/Mach1%20resto/Rotisserie/P1010474_zps0c2ee5d7.jpg) (http://s1154.photobucket.com/user/silverfox1001/media/Mach1%20resto/Rotisserie/P1010474_zps0c2ee5d7.jpg.html)
-
I have my unibody on the rotisserie right now and am going through this "how to remove paint" decision right now. MY LABOR is free, so after a little experimenting, I have decided that a combination of twisted SS wire cup and rags with lacquer thinner is the least expensive and gives the best results ON THE INTERIOR FLOOR PANS, ENGINE BAY AND UNDERNEATH SIDE OF THE CAR. I am NOT going to do this to the body panels though.
For body panels, I will probably use a light application of aircraft stripper to soften it a little and then scrape with razor blades. Last I will D/A it with 80 grit after wiping down the panels with rags soaked with something to neutralize the stripper. I will not let any liquid get within 1" of any panel joint or overlap. That will keep the stripper from wicking into nooks and crannies.
I don't want to, but I will have to media blast some areas that are inaccessible using any other means, but it's use will be very limited. No matter how hard you try, you can't keep trapped media from finding its way out and into your topcoat.
It's unbelievable how good the condition of the metal is in. My frame rails and floor pans look almost new. The factory drips from the belly will be very hard to re-create. Each one had a bubble in its low point that "popped" and left a crater as the primer was heat cured. I had considered just applying DP-75 over them but decided I'd just remove all the way to the metal and try to get "close" to the same look...SOMEHOW.
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/frttoback_zpsbc1cf035.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/wideview_zpsf700ddb7.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/panclose_zpsc31f895f.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/railrealclose_zps5c9bfd98.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/bubbles_zps6e7b3b5b.jpg)
WOW! That looks really great. The body is in great condition from what is shown. I think I'll give that a try and save some of the
$80.00 Hr that it would cost for media blasting. I'm now down to the unibody after spending last weekend stripping the car down.
I have break and fuel lines to remove and the switches in the dash. Did you buy the rotisserie or rent it? May I ask the cost?
Jeff
-
Thanks for the kind words.
The car IS in great shape. You are new here so I'll tell you something the older ones know. I bought THIS car in 1979. I sold it in 1981 to an Air Force pilot. He kept it for 31 years and I looked him up on the internet and talked him out of it in 2009. He had only put 15,000 miles on it in 31 years and kept it in a dry garage. That's how it looks all over. When I get finished stripping, it will practically be a newly-bucked body just like Ford created. My paint man (a World-Of-Wheels quality Hot-Rod Builder) tried to talk me out of stripping it but I just could not stand having 9 layers of paint/primer, no matter how good he could make it look.
I am a draftsman and I work for a steel fabrication company. The owner is an "Old Car buff." I did the drawings on my own time, and bought the materials. The owner provided the fabrication, and blast & paint labor using the welders in the shop. It cost me $250 and I get to use it for 1 year, and then the owner gets to keep it.
It has a worm gear from a boat winch and you just turn the handle and you can make fine adjustments to the position of the car.
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/cog_zpsafcc2038.jpg)
-
The more I strip, the more impressed I am with the condition. I got the driver's side wheelweel/shocktower stripped today and didn't find a single spot of pitting or rust. The factory sound deadener and some undercoating that I probably sprayed in there, in 1980, was very effective at keeping rust out I guess?
I did weld up the P.O.'s holes for the Arning Drop. Now you can't tell they were ever there.
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/DSCN4283_zpsb431aece.jpg)
-
More "Condition" blessings.
I stuck my camera up inside the cowl. Look how good it looks, before I even touch it. I expected it to be OK, but not rust free. It appears to be rust free.
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/DSCN4272_zps31124ec0.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/DSCN4275_zpsd990e99f.jpg)
(http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad350/bryancobb/2nd%20car%201979%20Nightmist%20Blue%201966%20C-Code%20Conv/DSCN4280_zpsd427662f.jpg)
-
The key is the time/money thing. If you are in a hurry, drop it off at the blaster and let'em have at it. Aircraft stripper works also, but is is time consuming, and you end up - after the paint has been scraped off - with washing the car with thinner and either steel wool or Scotchbrite.
I cannot understand using an orbital sander with sanding pads. Seems like that will certainly create way more work with smoothing the body.
-
Today's update: The unibody went to the media blaster. Should be back by July 15th. I also ordered a full floor pan with seat risers and the cowl panel extensions. The cowl panel had only surface rust and the top hats are intact. The am radio has been restored to factory specs (Jim Shepard in AZ) along with the distributor(Tim O'Connor, IN) both mustang restoration experts. I finished the cylinder head rebuild this week and the block should be back Friday from the machine shop. Engine rebuilding next week. Oil pan, valve cover, exhaust manifold and air cleaner assemblies have been stripped, cleaned and painted. Tonight I rebuild the instrument bezel assembly. I'm thinking of building an engine test stand this week or next. So far, so good and I'm pleased with the results and completed work.
Jeff
-
It's been awhile and finally received back the Mustang from the media blaster. Interesting to see what lies underneath the paint. Pictures attached.
The car is now at Elite Customs for a check of the frame. I just had a feeling that the car had been in an accident or two over the past 48 years and want to make sure I continue to have a good foundation (straight) from which to work from. Come to find out that the car had a vinyl top at one time which was removed. Lots of pitting on the roof. I'll be replacing both full quarter panels, tail light panel and the rear valance. Other than the complete floor pan replacement, the interior sheet metal looks in great shape.
Since my last update: I located an autolite 1100 carb with the correct carb tag still on and had it rebuilt to concourse by KP Carbs out of New York, Reupholster the rear seat, media blasted a lot of small parts. I'll start a new thread as the body work starts later this week.
Jeff
-
That's some serious pitting on the roof. I would fill them and install a vinyl top back as original.
Why do you think you need to replace full quarter panels? Seems a shame to ruin the car with reproduction sheet metal. I would try to patch those quarters if possible. You'll spend more time trying to correct bad gaps than you would patching.
-
Only the driver's side is an OEM quarter panel. I found the parts sticker still on the inside. However, the person or shop in the past use hardware
cloth to help support the quarter panels on both sides and the excess is wadded up in the trunk fender well, very unsightly and not very professional.
I have too admit the quarter panels looked good from the outside before I had it blasted, but once I opened the trunk, Wham! that hunk of screen hits me in the face. It's too noticeable and I think it would detract from resale valve or points in a show.
Jeff
-
It's hard to tell from pictures the extent of the cancer but I think at first glance I agree with Charles. How is the quality of the work on the replaced panel. It looks to me like you could buy partial panels and patches and go with a less invasive approach. I had to do partial quarters and they took alot of modification to fit correctly. Also pay close attention to the panels you get for correctness where the lower part of the panel meets the trunk drop. Many of the aftermarket panels are way off here.
-
I get the coupe back from the frame shop tomorrow. I'll shoot some photos of the inside rear wheel well to illustrate the hardware cloth that was used.
Maybe then, you guys would recommend a procedure to eliminate this unsightly wire. I didn't want to replace panels before media blasting, now I'm reconsidering. Just need more feedback and guidance.
Thanks as always,
Jeff
-
That's some serious pitting on the roof. I would fill them and install a vinyl top back as original.
Is it pitting, or glue residue on the roof? From the one picture, it looks like upward bumps rather than downward pits. Maybe it is just my eyes...
-
It's serious pitting of the roof. When I bought the car the roof was painted. Rust was starting to show up on the roof.
At the time I didn't know it had/was a vinyl top car. My plan is to use MasterCoat metal prep and rust remover. The MasterCoat
silver sealer (2 coats), expoy primer (2 coats), filler, block sand and then 2k primer (2 coats). But that is down the road a bit.
First, I need to get the welding done.
Jeff
-
I get the coupe back from the frame shop tomorrow. I'll shoot some photos of the inside rear wheel well to illustrate the hardware cloth that was used.
Maybe then, you guys would recommend a procedure to eliminate this unsightly wire. I didn't want to replace panels before media blasting, now I'm reconsidering. Just need more feedback and guidance.
Thanks as always,
Jeff
Here are the photos of the inside rear wheel well of the trunk...This is one of the reasons I was going to replace the quarter panels. To remove this hardware cloth. If someone has an idea as how to remove this, I'd sure be interested.
Jeff
-
I would cut those areas out and patch the wheel wells and quarters recreating the factory seams and butt welding the patches. I agree that saving the original panels are the way to go. You will save time and money not having to align the panels and will save date stamps and factory sound deadener etc.
-
I did some work on these areas on my car. Once I welded (my skills aren't the prettiest but the welds are secure), ground the welds, dressed the seams with some body filler, shot it with tinted red oxide primer, patched the factory sound deadener with Spectrum sludge (thanks J. Speagle) and undercoated it came out pretty well.
-
+1 to what Tom said. Sometimes what appears to be more difficult to achieve will yield superior results. I can guarantee you would spend just as much, if not more, time getting your gaps/fit right with full repro quarters than replacing entire chunks of sheet metal. IMHO, I think a lot of cars have been ruined by the mentality of replacing full sheet metal pieces instead of patching/sectioning.
-
Thanks for all the input. The Mustang arrived home today from the frame shop. The Mustang frame is straight and ready to proceed.
I've shot what I think are better photos than previously posted of what I need to do. Take a look. I want to repair these quarter panels to
remove this wire hardware cloth. It also looks like fiberglass was used as well. I have two large welding jobs; 1: the complete floor pan. 2; the quarter
panel repair. Which should be started first or does it matter? The first set of photos is the passenger side rear quarter panel views including the wheel well in the trunk.
Jeff
-
Here are the driver's side quarter panel including the trunk wheel well view. This quarter panel is in much better condition and was installed in 1982.
Jeff
-
+1 with Tom also, these look like easy patches to replace. You should be able to get partial panels if you don't feel comfortable using sheet metal pieces. If you are not up on your welding I would start the welding in non- structural areas that you don't see. I would also do some you tube searches on panel patching there is alot of good how to videos out there.
-
I would recommend you start with the floor and brush up on your welding skills. The quarters will take some finesse work. You might consider asking a pro to help if you get stuck on the quarters. Get everything cut out first to see what all needs to be done. Basically looks like some quarter sections and outer wheel housing sections.
-
I concur, start with the floor panel and go from there. I'd much rather have the patch panels. For now the coupe's up on jack stands as I have been blowing and vacuuming out the left over media material from all the nooks and crannies. When the temps drop, I'll start removing the front and rear suspension, steering column and gear box tonight.
Thanks
Jeff
-
If you if you do the patching yourself here's a few tips I learned along the way:
Practice butt welding on scrap first and proceed when you are comfortable with your technique
Rather than trying to weld a bead, weld a series of spot welds by lifting the welding tip. This helps prevent burn through
Cut back to good solid metal.
Use some card stock and a sharpie to make a template.
Cut sheet metal slightly outside your trace lines and trim with snips to trim to a nice tight fit.
Test fit and trim this can be time consuming but take your time and be patient until you get it right.
Tight seams help prevent blow through and make for a nicer repair
I used small strong magnets where I couldn't clamp to hold butt weld in place and tacked with the welder.
Once I got 4 sides securely tacked, I started stitch welding. Do about 1/4" at a time and take your time.
Pause between stitches and wait for piece to cool to prevent warping
Alternate sides when stitch welding and again, wait for work to cool...important :)
Continue welding and waiting until patch is complete.
Takes some practice. Burn through was frustrating at first but with practice I got adequate enough with my technique to make it work.
-
Thanks for the tips, really do appreciate them, My plan is to finish removing the front/rear suspensions, get under the car with a light and finishing removing any left road grim the blaster couldn't get to. Treat the rusty areas and spray epoxy primer. Next I'll move on to cutting out the floor pan and test fit the new one. As large as it is, I'll assume for now it goes in from underneath the coupe? I have a welder friend who is going to help place, trim and get the panel aligned for welding. Once the panel is welded in and epoxy primered, I'll move to the passenger side quarter panel and cut out the bad parts and install patch panels retaining the main panel. I'll start a new thread when the welding work begins. Question; there is a black primer on the new floor pan, does this black material need to be removed and re-primed or can I spray over it?
Jeff
-
Thanks for the tips, really do appreciate them, My plan is to finish removing the front/rear suspensions, get under the car with a light and finishing removing any left road grim the blaster couldn't get to. Treat the rusty areas and spray epoxy primer. Next I'll move on to cutting out the floor pan and test fit the new one. As large as it is, I'll assume for now it goes in from underneath the coupe? I have a welder friend who is going to help place, trim and get the panel aligned for welding. Once the panel is welded in and epoxy primered, I'll move to the passenger side quarter panel and cut out the bad parts and install patch panels retaining the main panel. I'll start a new thread when the welding work begins. Question; there is a black primer on the new floor pan, does this black material need to be removed and re-primed or can I spray over it?
Jeff
I believe the floor pan installs from the top.
The black coating is e-coat, a electrically charged primer coat. It is very good rust protection. You will only need to remove where you are welding. I clean weld areas then spray with weld-through primer for rust protection. You can spray DP 74 epoxy primer over e-coat, just follow the manufacturer's instructions.
-
PPG makes a wash primer that you can use to coat the metal while you are doing metal repairs. I probably wouldn't apply any epoxy primer until all the welding was done.
-
My product choice is to use Mastercoat Metal Prep and Rust Remover followed by 2 coats of Mastercoat Silver Sealer. Here's the link: http://www.masterseriescoatings.com/index/primer/
Then coat with epoxy primer. Use body filler where needed. Block sand, get the panel straight, when that's done and I'm happy, then 2 coats of 2k primer. The base color is going to be Suatrene Gold, black paint for the interior and the black vinyl roof. This is the way the car came from the factory. Haven't yet decided on the manufacturer for the base color. Original as you know was Ditzler which I believe now is PPG. If correct, I'll use epoxy primers, urethane base coat and a clear coat. Well, I'm along way off for those decisions. Getting the panels in and prepped are my concern at this point.
Jeff
-
+1 on what Tom said I think the floor pan will go in through the back window.
-
I'll be finding out next week when I start. Would it be easier to cut the old floor out in sections than in one piece? Just curious as to what has been done in the past and what seems to work best. Removed the rear suspension this morning and tonight I'll start on the front suspension and steering column.
Ohh the fun!....LOL
Jeff