Topic: Monuments and Mustangs 2011 MCA Grand National

[jtfx6552]

C5ZZKGT, which car is yours? I'd like to find it in my pictures.

As far as the comments about the value of the trophy, I think you must consider that 1000's of hours go into a high quality restoration is more the point than what one gets at the end, and because that is what is being recognized, I can see if one feels slighted, that they would be quite upset.

I hadn't been to a GN show since Valley Forge in 1980, or 81, so this one was a lot different. For me, I would have rather seen the cars grouped together by class. I spoke with someone at the show that gave me the reasons it is done the way it is now, and on the one hand, it makes a lot of sense, but on the other, there are a few cars I would have liked to look at back and forth without circling the whole show field. Further, the visual, of a bunch of similar years high quality cars lined up is stunning.

[C5ZZKGT]

C5ZZKGT, which car is yours? I'd like to find it in my pictures.

As far as the comments about the value of the trophy, I think you must consider that 1000's of hours go into a high quality restoration is more the point than what one gets at the end, and because that is what is being recognized, I can see if one feels slighted, that they would be quite upset.

I hadn't been to a GN show since Valley Forge in 1980, or 81, so this one was a lot different. For me, I would have rather seen the cars grouped together by class. I spoke with someone at the show that gave me the reasons it is done the way it is now, and on the one hand, it makes a lot of sense, but on the other, there are a few cars I would have liked to look at back and forth without circling the whole show field. Further, the visual, of a bunch of similar years high quality cars lined up is stunning.

I really don't care about the value of the trophy, just was setting Brian straight on exactly what it was.
My car is a '65 Triple Black K code GT Convertible with a Red stripe.
I also agree that cars should be grouped by class, much better that way!

[C5ZZKGT]

OK, So I am now understanding that a car can attend any number of MCA shows for as long as the owner wants to go, get judged by many, many different people/judges and might never realize a true judging score, then this will be blamed on inexperianced judges? I think that the MCA has been around too long to operate this way.
And on the fact that the judging sheets go to the MCA headquarters before being sent to the car's owner to keep away from unwanted confrontation...........
I would like to know where the millions and millions of $$ are that we all pay to the MCA each year for our dues if 99.9% of the positions are NOT paid positions?
What exactly am I getting for my contribution each year?
Certainly the travel expenses for the officers are all paid for for each National show each year?
Why should I continue to be part of the MCA knowing that the judging can be so hap-hazard?
How could the MCA allow this to go on?

[carlite65]

i would respectfully suggest you address this to the mca officials on the mca website forum. some of those folks do not visit over on the board.

[Ivygreen65]

OK, So I am now understanding that a car can attend any number of MCA shows for as long as the owner wants to go, get judged by many, many different people/judges and might never realize a true judging score, then this will be blamed on inexperianced judges?

You do understand that judging is a subjective thing.  Your car is judged against a standard, but there are sections of the judging that are reliant on the judge's opinion of quality, fit, and finish.  That isn't an exact science and never will be.  If you want the same score everytime, take up a different hobby.

And on the fact that the judging sheets go to the MCA headquarters before being sent to the car's owner to keep away from unwanted confrontation

I think you're demonstrating why that policy is in effect.

I would like to know where the millions and millions of $$ are that we all pay to the MCA each year?

Would you mind providing the math you used to come up with millions and millions of dollars coming in from +/- 13,000 members?

Why should I continue to be part of the MCA knowing that the judging can be so hap-hazard?
How could the MCA allow this to go on?

Based on your posts over the past couple of days, it sounds like you're not going to be happy extending your membership in the MCA.  My opinion, and it's only my opinion, is that if you are showing your automobile in judged events, whether it's Mustangs, Corvettes, Model T's, Jaguars, etc., you've got to go in knowing that you're not always going to be happy with the outcome.  I'm sure Bob Perkins isn't always happy with the judging of his cars, and we know the quality of them.  The human factor is gonna bite you once in a while.  I hear Corvette guys bitch about judging in their shows, I hear MG guys bitch about the judging in their shows.  It's part of it.  You're going to get a lousy judge some time if you show your car enough (not indicting any judges mentioned on this forum, I'm just saying).  As I said before, and again, it's just my opinion, if you can't stand an occasional bad judging sheet (your fault, someone else's fault, or nobody's fault), then don't show your car.

[mgmradio]

OK, So I am now understanding that a car can attend any number of MCA shows for as long as the owner wants to go, get judged by many, many different people/judges and might never realize a true judging score, then this will be blamed on inexperianced judges?

That was not what I was trying to say.The point I was trying to make is the points should come out close no matter who judges your car.With the limmited time we have to judge each car a judge can't be expected to catch all the incorrect things.If we had 3or 4 hours it would be a different story.

  Most of the dues money goes tward the Magazine.Most of the rest is for admin costs advertizing and providing insurance for club shows.

[TLea]

I would also add that it seems like you had a bad experience at the Jacksonville show and that is the exception, not the rule. Knowing Fred and Phil it would seem to me that what happened at Md was a more accurate representation of what the judging is. To say that the two experience are representitive of how it is show to show is not accurate. Unfortunately for you and all of us sometimes this happens and does not represent the judging community well. I only wish that when all the events were happening in Jacksonville that you would have called over the head judge to deal with it. We strive for consistentcy but its not always possible. Either Jeff, myself or both of us have been at every MCA, SAAC and Team Shelby show judging for at least the past 5 years except one. Guess which one the problems were at?

[CharlesTurner]

As others have said, there is no way MCA judging can ever be an exact science.  There are way too many variables at play when you look at the big picture.  What do you think the judging used to be like in the 80's before folks knew much about the cars?  It was a whole different ballgame back then.  At least now, we have more comprehensive rules and can strive for a higher level of consistency.

In regards to where the MCA dues money goes, that is just a small drop in the bucket and I believe up until recently, MCA was paying more per member than they were receiving.  I don't know if that has been completely corrected yet.  Most of the money goes towards the publication of Mustang Times.  MCA employs 2 full time personnel also, the MCA Times Editor and the Office Manager.  As I recall, the club operates on about a $500k budget.  Of course, you should be able to find this information by contacting someone on the MCA Board of Directors.  MCA is a non-profit organization.

You've come on here and explained your perspective of things and we are only giving you the MCA perspective and why things might be the way they are.  We never try to say things with MCA are perfect, there is always room for improvement.  It's too bad that you've had to experience what you did so early on, but then again, you are rather new to all of this, so a learning curve should have been expected.  I would have hoped your car would have been judged properly the first time though, at least that could have prepared you for anything later on.  In the end, remember that the judges are told to be coaches in helping to improve your car.  At least that is what I was telling everyone the past few years.  If the owners and judges take that mentality, then things greatly improve.  As I mentioned before, I would completely trust Fred's judging team and would highly recommend you send off for the sheets and see what you can do to improve the car.  You may find that a lot of it is easily fixed and then next time, you shouldn't have much of a problem scoring Gold.

[C5ZZKGT]

Charles, It was apparent to me that YOU were sorely missed at Jacksonville, and they were lost without your leadership.
I will say this though, I wish that if the crew at Jacksonville was not knoledgeable enough to judge in Concours Trailered (much less K codes) then they should have told me and everyone else and simply not judged us at all. Again, despite the tremendous heat that we ALL endoured these 2 judges were bumbling idiots imo, and again should have known way better than all the phisical contact that they had with my car, and most likely others as well.
I understand that both Jeff and Allen were at Jax, never met either 1 of them, these are the guys who should have judged in Concours Trailered, NOT the other team who to me lacked the experiance to judge even in a driven class.
Whatever went on that caused you to step down from your position in the MCA is purely none of my business, but it must have been something that you feel pretty strong about, so may be you understand now how I am feeling about the difference in judging on my car between the 2 shows, you (I) live and learn I guess.

[CharlesTurner]

Rick: You know I can't say anything about my departure from MCA on here.  But, I would suggest that it was not only my absence that made an impact.  Mike Murray and Pete Morgan also stepped down when I did.  Mike has been the 64.5-66 head judge for at least the past 4 years and had a great handle on making sure things got done properly and on time.

You do have a nice car, so don't forget that.  I sincerely believe that with the most recent feedback from MCA, it would make it all that much better.  Try to keep an open mind on the matter as you know there are many of us that support you.

[C5ZZKGT]

Rick: You know I can't say anything about my departure from MCA on here.  But, I would suggest that it was not only my absence that made an impact.  Mike Murray and Pete Morgan also stepped down when I did.  Mike has been the 64.5-66 head judge for at least the past 4 years and had a great handle on making sure things got done properly and on time.

You do have a nice car, so don't forget that.  I sincerely believe that with the most recent feedback from MCA, it would make it all that much better.  Try to keep an open mind on the matter as you know there are many of us that support you.

Thank You Charles. I hope that everyone understands that I am not complaining about a score at Waldorf that I haven't even seen yet, I just know that my car lost more than 21 points to go into the Silver award catagory, and that was really quite a shock to me considering that it only lost 14 points at Jax, and that I had "fixed" 10 of those lost points myself, and then some. I am certainly not complaining about Fred & Phill's judging or knoledge, and I believe I will appreciate what they had to say and deduct for when I get my sheets which I sent for as soon as I returned home.
How can any judge possibly remember MY car or any other well enough to speak to me about the items deducted to be able to accurately help me to do the "fixing" or "correcting" needed? I know that Fred and Phill told me that they put their phone numbers on MY sheet, I appreciate that very much, but if they did this with each car they judged then they might just be opening themselves up (NOT by me) to a phone confrontation on their personal phone line-wow!
Do they get copies of the judging sheets and a picture of each car that they judge to at least have a chance at remembering exactly what the circumstances were for each point they deducted? I think this would be helpful...may be I'll end up sending copies to each of them with a picture of my car so we can all be on the same page when I dig into it.....

[CharlesTurner]

They don't get copies, but I think you would be surprised how much the judges remember about each car.  Normally, simply reading off the comments will stir up enough of their memory to know what the intent was.

I guess there were some confrontations in the past that weren't very pleasant, so MCA thought it best to not give judging sheets at the shows.  Tempers can flare up at the show, so a week or so of cool-down time usually lets owners get their minds back right to be open to seeing what the judges had to say.  From that point, they can choose to contact them if they wish.  It says a lot to the credibility of a judge when they put their phone number on the judging sheets.