ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Misc Items => Topic started by: Anghelrestorations on February 18, 2015, 01:31:01 AM
-
Im working on putting together a quick reference article on the factory installed tie down brackets. Anyone who has pictures of original cars with either single exhaust style or dual exhaust style let me know. Post here, or send me pictures. Looking for both the early years 64-66 and later years up to 73.
Jeff or Charles...feel free to move this topic to a different area if you see fit.
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_5693_zpstmvwn9nj.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z213/azscj/IMG_5674_zps4w8enhkz.jpg)
-
1968, 289-2V, single exhaust
-
6R07C229939 and 12G on the door plate. I still have these brackets and the exhaust hangers. Brian
-
Hey Marcus
Make sure you go over to Jim's garage for some Dearborn dual tie downs - and show the difference !!! Looking forward - you always do a nice job.
Here is my car never taken off by dealer!
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e136/svo2scj/AZmustang185.jpg) (http://s38.photobucket.com/user/svo2scj/media/AZmustang185.jpg.html)
-
Thanks ....these are all good photos.
Mark - Is your car a Dearborn car? I thought it was - just want to make sure.
Brian and Dudley - thanks for the pictures of the single exhaust cars. So far I dont see a difference in these smaller brackets and only one version unlike the dual exhaust which we see two versions.
-
Marcus I am not certain but I seem to recall the single exhaust ones were all made the same but some were natural and some were painted black. I can not recall what plant did what. Marty
-
Yes, the working theory right now is that the tie down brackets from San Jose were painted black. Thats what I have heard several people say already. Would like to see pictures of an original survivor car that actually shows that.
-
This is what is on my June 65 Dearborn vert.
-
Mike....are the corners on your tie down bracket rounded or square on the top of the bracket? This is your 10,000 mile car?
-
Have dozens will post when I get caught up
Plenty of black San Jose style ones ;) Never found a bare steel one that I can recall
-
Hi
No Marcus. My car is SJ car. I think we know that the plan was for dealers to remove (.50 credit for return) and that they be reused/returned for use at the assembly lines. These were what were on my car -sitting since the 70's and ROUNDED ENDS. You can see the remnants of black paint on the bottom.
When restoring the car I didn't source SJ style as I had this BEFORE photo and they were on the car.
Mark
-
I'm wondering if the rounded ends or square ends could have nothing to do with the manufacturing plant.
Jeff....if its easier you can email me the photos or post them here. Would like to see black paint originals and the style of tie down brackets for San Jose or otherwise for Dearborn and Metuchen.
-
I believe they are round Marcus. Yes it's the 10k car. I'll check tomorrow. And also on my 30k car.
-
The square corner ones are predominate on 65 and 66 SJ cars from my observations and then in 67 it seemed to be divided between the square ones and the rounded ones. I am beginning to think that square corner ones were still delivered to SJ along with dealer returns and that by 1967 returned rounded corner ones from other areas were in the mixed reused. Just a theory at this point.
-
Actually that is an interesting thought. If these were really returned from the dealers and reused it makes it harder to say that a certain style was only used at a certain plant. It would mix up the pot....
-
Actually that is an interesting thought. If these were really returned from the dealers and reused it makes it harder to say that a certain style was only used at a certain plant. It would mix up the pot....
Maybe truer as the time line got older but not initially IMO. The confusing part is that I have not come across the square corner on a Dearborn car before. If it was consistent logically it would seem that a mixer would be seen on Dearborn cars too , The square corner types seem to be in the minority as tie down brackets go. I see probably 4 of the rounded corner to every one of the square corner. Sorry I have only been looking at the duel exhaust ones. Maybe someone else has some insight.
-
Pics of passenger side bracket on what's left of 5F09K327203. Looks to be a Nov - Dec 64 scheduled build date from date stamps. No drivers side bracket left. Would've had dual exhaust originally.
-
Hi Marcus,
Here are pics from my '70 Cougar - Dearborn - Oct 6th, '69 build date - 428SCJ/4spd - dual exhaust.
Right side inner
(http://i.imgur.com/s6cOVKul.jpg)
Left side inner
(http://i.imgur.com/oJB79HXl.jpg)
Left side outer
(http://i.imgur.com/Bp1k8Fsl.jpg)
-
Hi Marcus,
Here are pics from my '70 Cougar - Dearborn - Oct 6th, '69 build date - dual exhaust.
Right side
(http://i.imgur.com/s6cOVKul.jpg)
Left side inner
(http://i.imgur.com/oJB79HXl.jpg)
Left side outer
(http://i.imgur.com/Bp1k8Fsl.jpg)
Odd that the single exhaust brackets were used on your Cougar or did all Cougars use the shorter typically single exhaust type bracket?
-
Its my understanding that the Cougar's generally could have used the shorter style brackets unlike the Mustang's. I will probably add some information on the Cougars as well in what I am working on.
-
mark looks to me like your hooks are only black at bottom & match the paint line of the added long shackles. you would be better off looking at the metal protected area between hook & frame rail that hasn't been exposed to the elements after all these years. marcus remember cougars have different rear frame rails & exhaust & hangers setup than mustangs & I have only seen the short hooks on cougars.
-
Ok you asked.
This is going to take a while - just the ones I already had in a separate file folder for tie downs Computer shows there are about 70 examples just in that section. Not sure how many you want but here goes
5F07K261xxx - Easy to see these have been off so the finish is not original
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215203122.jpeg)
6R09K18-19xxxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215203246.jpeg)
6R07C230xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215203357.jpeg)
6R09K17xxxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215203832.jpeg)
6R09K164xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215203712.jpeg)
6R09T197xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215203546.jpeg)
6R09T1973xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215203416.jpeg)
6R09K17xxxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215203832.jpeg)
Sure there are more if I went through all the files included the non-labeled/processed bunch.
Can't say I've seen may that didn't fit the expected pattern especially on the earlier cars unless the car was a "restored" car. Then there have been many examples - especially on back east cars on the west coast or western cars built on the eastern side of the country as one might expect.
-
Comment: Of course the finish on some of these can not be determined IMHO given the condition. Since, especially in the early years (disreguarding the small number of Dearborn 64 1/2's prior to the other plants opening) few cars were delivered far outside the region of the original plant the few brackets that were returned most likely made their way back to the original plants. Later special models that were not built at all plants likely added some odd ball brackets back to different plants but IMHO the number would be very small and finding those cars with them after all these years might be similar in numbers to the other non-typical things we find in other areas of these cars. Would be a subject for discussion only if the brackets were found to be different and were original to that particular car. Would think that focusing on these production differences may only tempt owners into added the unusual in an attempt to stand out. we've all heard those claims ..... "it was possible"" ::) Just my two cents based on what I've seen done over the years :)
++++++++++++++
67's - this time just San Jose and a single year. Again sure there are more
7R01A153xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210043.jpeg)
7R02C165xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210131.jpeg)
7R02C137xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210116.jpeg)
7R01C197xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210100.jpeg)
7R02C165xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210131.jpeg)
7R02K112xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210224.jpeg)
7R02S174xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210334.jpeg)
7R02S192xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210410.jpeg)
7R02S1742xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210434.jpeg)
7R03C155xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210455.jpeg)
7R03C188xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210516.jpeg)
7R03C1550xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210545.jpeg)
7R03C1883xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-210215210604.jpeg)
That's the last for tonight
-
Lots of good pictures - thanks everyone. Do we have any 71-73 experts? I have heard in that era that possibly some cars had both the long and the short brackets on a single exhaust cars. Would be interesting to have some examples of that.
-
marcus make sure point out that the hooks were originally installed on the INSIDE of frame rails. Look at jeff s first pic (the orange primer long hook) & its bolted on the OUTSIDE of the frame rail. They will bolt on both ways & over the years I have seen many installed backwards & when car owner says that's the way they should be I simply point to the big white tow hook decal drawing on rear valance & it clearly shows hooks on the inside frame rail. Also I have seen another long rounded corners version that I think are mid 70s type as a guy who had some of them said they came off a Granada or something. I have seen these installed by restorers & sold at swap meets but never seen that type installed on a vintage mustang from the factory. They look like the rounded corner Dearborn dual exhaust style but don't hang down as far & hook hole is more straight down & not pointed toward rear of car like the correct version.
-
marcus make sure point out that the hooks were originally installed on the INSIDE of frame rails. Look at jeff s first pic (the orange primer long hook) & its bolted on the OUTSIDE of the frame rail. They will bolt on both ways & over the years I have seen many installed backwards & when car owner says that's the way they should be I simply point to the big white tow hook decal drawing on rear valance & it clearly shows hooks on the inside frame rail.............
That was not a "tow truck hook" in the rear decal but instructions for rail and car transport shipping
But yes you are very correct, as I mentioned, that first 65 example has been off, refinished and reinstalled all incorrectly
-
where does the "truck" come from in my post? :)
-
A previous thread - http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=8515.msg49730#msg49730
Keep this in mind. The tie down brackets were used on all Fords (the big stuff probable had big brackets) and some were east to get off, some were not and some were ignored. They came from all plants to all dealers for every model and were sent back to the assembly plant, probably the nearest. So the San Jose assembly plant would get Kansas used brackets because local San Jose area dealers sold cars made in Kansas.
Jim
-
A previous thread - http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=8515.msg49730#msg49730
Keep this in mind. The tie down brackets were used on all Fords (the big stuff probable had big brackets) and some were east to get off, some were not and some were ignored. They came from all plants to all dealers for every model and were sent back to the assembly plant, probably the nearest. So the San Jose assembly plant would get Kansas used brackets because local San Jose area dealers sold cars made in Kansas.
Jim
?????
-
where does the "truck" come from in my post? :)
Opps!!
Magically :)
...................They came from all plants to all dealers for every model and were sent back to the assembly plant, probably the nearest. So the San Jose assembly plant would get Kansas used brackets because local San Jose area dealers sold cars made in Kansas.
But would a Kansas built Big Ford tie down be the same (fit or be used) on a Mustang?
Don't think they are the same so those would have been shipped back to other big Ford plants since they could not be used at the others. Not even sure all Fords used tie downs at the rear
-
Actually that is not true at all. The only vehicles manufactured by Ford during this time frame that used rear brackets tie downs were the Mustangs and the Cougars. Other vehicles like Thunderbirds, Lincolns, Broncos, Fairlanes, Falcons, Comets, vans and trucks used existing holes inside of the frame rails for the rear tie down hooks. Because Mustangs and Cougars didnt have anything like this and for clearance purposes they added the brackets on the back. Its actually unique to the cars that we are talking about here.
-
Marcus thanks for clearing that up about Mustang and Cougar tie downs. I was getting a bit confused.
-
Many years back a local shop owner in San Jose (no longer in business) in a general conversation told me that Falcons had the brackets too. I assumed that all Fords had them. Did this difference require the car carriers to have two different rear hook up types? Or did the "T" type also work on the brackets the same way?
Jim
-
I think there has been alot of confusion of the brackets over the years. The Falcons did not have, or use a seperate tie down bracket. They have a hole in the frame in the back by the bumper that was used. The attaching hook is the same from the rail or car carriers, but there just wasnt a rear tie down bracket added for Falcons. No need on those cars. This is something unique to Mustang and Cougar only on the rear of the cars.
And the T type hook was used on on the front. I will show pictures of everything I have put together to help explain.
-
And the T type hook was used on on the front. I will show pictures of everything I have put together to help explain.
The "T" hook was only used (according to the shipping handbooks I've seen) for securing the front in place. The reason those dolly holes are shaped differently from the others on the early Mustangs. The T hooks were used up into the 90's. As you can see in the illustration below, during the early 80's at least the t hooks were attached to a short length of chain that also had a standard hook also to reduce the number of tie downs they needed to carry for the job and the hook also allowed for quick shortening of the length of chain by hooking it back on itself
From the copy of the shipping guidelines. Only have a copy from 81 currently. T hook in the drawing is shaped slightly different from the ones I have purchased
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-220215222722.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-220215222751.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-220215223508.jpeg)
-
Yes ....the chain would typically have a T hook and a grab hook on the end and the cargo guys would use one or the other when they were securing the vehicles.
-
I'll add another one to the database...
This bracket was on my '67 Mustang that I purchased in 1982. Shortly after I bought the car, I noticed a very loud screech in the back every time I would go over railroad tracks or any sizable bump in the road. I quickly discovered that the tie-down bracket on the driver's side had been bent, and it was rubbing against the rear leaf spring (that's what caused the scuff marks that are visible between the 6" and 8" markings on the tape measure).
The bracket was definitely painted black - it looks to be the same type of thin black paint that was used on seat frames - and the car was a 390, dual-exhaust Fastback (7R02S193473) built in San Jose on March 28, 1967. I left the passenger side bracket on the car, and it was still there when I sold the car in 1986...
-
Thats good information on your 390. Good photo as well.
Can you also take a quick picture of the attaching hardware? I have found two basic different styles of hardware that was used. Would like to see the head markings on those bolts to compare what I have seen here.
-
paperback I have seen that rubbing before on them long hooks & if you want to sell your odd 1 let me know as I have the other side odd
-
Can you also take a quick picture of the attaching hardware? I have found two basic different styles of hardware that was used. Would like to see the head markings on those bolts to compare what I have seen here.
Marcus, here's a shot of bolt heads - unfortunately, there is some corrosion on them and I couldn't make out any markings. I threw these in some Evaporust right after I took the photo this morning, so hopefully we should get a better look at them in the next day or two...
paperback I have seen that rubbing before on them long hooks & if you want to sell your odd 1 let me know as I have the other side odd
Ed - Actually, I'm trying to find one for the passenger side. I need them for my '67 San Jose 390 Convertible...
-
ok I will sell you the rh side but remember the Dearborn cars were bare steel so have some pitting unlike sj painted black but after painting black the pits will be gone.
-
From the post "Mustang Hardware Spreadsheets" in the library section. I used "Shipping Tie Down - " in the description as I wanted a unique description. On many entries of these items I listed the source vehicle. I included any other applications as the tie downs brackets were not formally documented for 64-70 cars and I assumed the hardware that was used elsewhere was "borrowed" for tie down brackets. The exception is UNK35.
20430-S2 Bolt 64-66 This is the same 7/16-14 bolt used to attach bell housings and tail pieces to various MTs. No head marking or grade.
20546-S2 Bolt 64-67 This is the same 7/16-14 bolt used for attaching the V8 bell housing to the engine. No head marking or grade.
34446-S8 Nut 67 A common 7/16-14 Grade 5 cone locking nut.
34783-S7 Lock washer 64-66 A common 7-16 lock washer. Used with 20430-S2 (the vertical bolt).
34988-S2 Nut 69 A common 7/16-14 Grade 8 cone locking nut.
34978-S2 Nut 71-73 A common 7/16 nut.
374358-S8 Nut 64-66 This is the same 7/16-14 nut used on 64-66 bumper bolts. It is not currently reproduced.
44730-S2 Flat washer 64-66 A common 7/6 flat washer.
55695-S2 Nut 67 A 7/16-14 nut used on the rear bumper.
55806-S2 Nut 67 A 7/16-14 nut used on the front bumper.
55826-S7 Nut 67 A 7/16-14 nut used on engine mounts.
57063-S2 Bolt 69 A grade 5.1 7/16X2 1/2 hex bolt with disc washer found on a San Jose car. Head marking unk.
57063-S2 Bolt 71-73 A grade 5.1 7/16X2 1/2 hex bolt with disc washer not documented as used on other applications. Head marking unk.
57481-S2 Bolt 71-73 A common grade 5.1 7/16-14 bolt used on fender braces and bumpers. Head marking unknown.
UNK35 Flat washer 64-67 This washer is not in the AMK Guide to Ford Fasteners, but is available from AMK as B-11754, a GM application.
Jim
-
A few 68 examples
8R0T1601xx Hardware
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215161959.jpeg)
8R0T1601xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215162037.jpeg)
8R02C1304xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215162110.jpeg)
8R02J1247xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215162150.jpeg)
-
Just to add one other picture that I did not include earlier, this showing the outboard side of the rear frame rail showing the nuts.
-
Some hardware shots
67 San Jose tie down hardware
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215163157.jpeg)
9R02H1315xx tie down hardware
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215164414.jpeg)
-
Some 69 Examples
9F02Q1348xx - Notice the difference of how the bolts were installed
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215164607.jpeg)
9R02F1728xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215164659.jpeg)
9R03F1144xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215164756.jpeg)
9T02H1058xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215164822.jpeg)
-
Some hardware shots
67 San Jose tie down hardware
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215163157.jpeg)
9R02H1315xx tie down hardware
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-240215164414.jpeg)
The 67 picture seems distorted so that coarse threads look like fine. The pic of 9R02H11315xx may confirm the use of the same bolts as shown in the 71-73 Assembly Manuals by the lead point tip, 57063-S2. The nuts in both pictures may be 34978-S2, a hi hex cone type.
Jim
-
Was it just a preference of the line worker, regarding the orientation of the nut & bolt? ~ i.e. nut on the inside vs outside of the frame rail.
Seem like most of the pics show the nuts on the outside of the frame rail, but a few have them on the inside.
Just curious if there is a rhyme or reason.
-
Was it just a preference of the line worker, regarding the orientation of the nut & bolt? ~ i.e. nut on the inside vs outside of the frame rail.
Seem like most of the pics show the nuts on the outside of the frame rail, but a few have them on the inside.
Just curious if there is a rhyme or reason.
Probably just easier carrying the longer bolts already slid into the brackets in his one hand, while holding his nuts in the other :o OOPS!
Routines are set up when you do things over and over again
-
Was it just a preference of the line worker, regarding the orientation of the nut & bolt? ~ i.e. nut on the inside vs outside of the frame rail.
Seem like most of the pics show the nuts on the outside of the frame rail, but a few have them on the inside.
The reason I mentioned that is so that members and Marcus could keep an eye open for that detail to see if its plant specific. Sometimes its a results of how the line at that particular plant was set up - what station they were installed at or instructions received by that plant's managers. The one I posted that was different was a Dearborn example while the others were San Jose in that set - like the 70 Dearborn example you posted.
Looks like the 65-67 San Jose was typically done with bolts in plate with a few odd balls here and there - possible a single worker at that station that liked them the other way.
May be nothing or may turn out to be one of those details we discover like the direction of the front spring/shock cover bolts on the earlier cars which is somewhat plant specific
We'll only know if there is a pattern if we pay attention :)
-
jeff all the Dearborn long dual exhaust hooks I have seen were installed like in your first Dearborn pic as it makes more sence to install long bolt with big slip washer on it to be routed from outside inward so big washer helps support thin metal rail where as nut on thick metal hook don't need a washer. Also installing long bolts on lh side from outside inward has more room to work with since gas tank & trunk floor pan is offset to lh side more than rh. Its a tight fit on dual exhaust cars with pipes & hangers all ready installed & trying to add hooks afterwards especially on lh side. I think on assembly line the dualexhaust hooks were installed before exhaust went on as it would have made it easier.
-
Agree these likely were installed prior to the exhaust system - not sure if, at Dearborn, if the direction depended on which style of plate. Take notice of response #17 by Mike - a single exhaust style (ne didn't mention the engine type).
With more examples we might discover more ;)
Right now I'm waist deep in other responsibilities to search through all the 69-70 individual car files in my collection
-
Marcus, here's a shot of bolt heads - unfortunately, there is some corrosion on them and I couldn't make out any markings. I threw these in some Evaporust right after I took the photo this morning, so hopefully we should get a better look at them in the next day or two...
Here's the '67 SJ attaching hardware straight out of the Evaporust. I'm not 100% sure that the nut was the original, as I only found one of them in the Ziploc bag with the bolts and bracket...
-
yes I looked at mike #17 post & bolts are routed outside inward like I see on Dearborn hooks with the long attached washer bolts & the dual exhaust cougars (like mikes cougar pics) use the short hooks & on dual exhaust cougars there is a lh & rh hook even thou they look the same they are bent different offset by hook hole as both sides are bent inward & I think the reason the short hooks have that bump at top between 2 bolt holes is so you install them the correct direction cause if you install them with bump toward frame rail hook wont lay flat against frame rail & will rock when bolts are tightened. Look at ebay auction just completed item # 111607800510 as that is the OTHER type long hook I was talking about in previous post here as that long hook is at a shorter angle & I have never seen them on any vintage mustang but I seen some of them in a ford guys garage years ago & he said they came off a Granada or something like that. ;) :)
-
Here's the '67 SJ attaching hardware straight out of the Evaporust. I'm not 100% sure that the nut was the original, as I only found one of them in the Ziploc bag with the bolts and bracket...
From my observations -
From the post "Mustang Hardware Spreadsheets" in the library section.
20430-S2 Bolt 64-66 This is the same 7/16-14 bolt used to attach bell housings and tail pieces to various MTs. No head marking or grade.
20546-S2 Bolt 64-67 This is the same 7/16-14 bolt used for attaching the V8 bell housing to the engine. No head marking or grade.
55695-S2 Nut 67 A 7/16-14 nut used on the rear bumper.
UNK35 Flat washer 64-67 This washer is not in the AMK Guide to Ford Fasteners, but is available from AMK as B-11754, a GM application.
The new information is the short bolt, 20430-S2, used in 64-66, was also used on the bracket for dual exhaust cars, my info came from a 67 single exhaust "A" code and a 67 "C" code.
The measurements for the flat washer I found should be 0.468ID, 0.875OD, 0.059-0.085T. My originals are as deformed and scratched as yours.
Jim
-
Another one from today's cars
8R02J104xxx tie down
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-260215191002.jpeg)
-
Marcus - Have you seen this?
From Jan 24, 1969 TSB's
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-030315211217.jpeg)
-
Agree these likely were installed prior to the exhaust system - not sure if, at Dearborn, if the direction depended on which style of plate. Take notice of response #17 by Mike - a single exhaust style (ne didn't mention the engine type).
Jeff, my pics in post #17 are from my 428SCJ car ~ so dual exhaust. Updated that post with addition of engine type, for future reference.
That TSB is interesting! So has anyone ever experienced issues because of them?
-
Thats great Jeff. I assumed this was something that was being done before 1969 but does not appear from reading this TSB. I also think at the same time it shows that there really was no program to return these tie down brackets to the assembly plants. Thats my opinion at the moment. At least in the last week with all the documentation I have been looking thru I could not find any reference to returning them from parts or service department or anything else.
-
Thats great Jeff. I assumed this was something that was being done before 1969 but does not appear from reading this TSB. I also think at the same time it shows that there really was no program to return these tie down brackets to the assembly plants. Thats my opinion at the moment. At least in the last week with all the documentation I have been looking thru I could not find any reference to returning them from parts or service department or anything else.
Marcus ,the fact that the information sticker was meant to be applied to cars as per the engineering direction in the assembly manuals on every regular production Mustang confirms the application and the intent above and beyond the real life stickers and their remnants that can be found on many cars 65-68 (69 is not in question from your statement). Since we know that the real life reality is that they were sometimes taken off and sometimes not ,the only aspect that can be said is in question is if and how the return procedure was administered. My take on the TSB was that the stickers were being ignored so much that the related service problems prompted the additional attention that the TSB was meant to initiate .
-
............ My take on the TSB was that the stickers were being ignored so much that the related service problems prompted the additional attention that the TSB was meant to initiate .
+1 Normally the reason TSB's were often produced was to make service managers aware of changes, problems/issues or how to address things.
Marcus will look through my very small stack of confidential minutes from the dealer- factory reps meetings to see if there is anything in those.
-
Bob.....so you are saying for sure you have seen original cars before 1969 that had these stickers on them? Just want to confirm that. The way I read the TSB was that the stickers will be an additional item added to the car besides the TSB to help to remind their removal. It seems the stickers would only be added after they knew it was a problem and not before they knew there was an issue.
-
Bob.....so you are saying for sure you have seen original cars before 1969 that had these stickers on them? Just want to confirm that. The way I read the TSB was that the stickers will be an additional item added to the car besides the TSB to help to remind their removal. It seems the stickers would only be added after they knew it was a problem and not before they knew there was an issue.
Marcus,yes I have seen the stickers on the rear valance of 65-69 (years of interest)Mustangs for many years. Not as much now as many cars are restored. I am not special in noticing these. This was brought to my attention decades ago by others. It was probably Special Ed on a 69 or 70 since those are the only years he cares about ;D but I then started to look for them on 65,66,67 and 68 where I also found them . That is just my story many others discovered them their own way.Many times I would find full ,partial , small paper or adhesive remnants of the stickers. Plus the stickers are illustrated in the assembly manuals in the body section. I think even without personal visual confirmation the fact that they are illustrated attached to the rear valance in the assembly manual would be enough of a smoking gun for a skeptic on the subject. As I said before many have seen the stickers and with that said it has been a common joke for years among the junk yard dogs and restorers alike how much the instructions were ignored given finding so many still attached. That is why in my mind the TSB had to be issued to bring this oversight to the attention of the people who were suppose to be removing them that there was a necessary mechanical need for removing them above and beyond the reason of re use at the factory.
-
Bob.....so you are saying for sure you have seen original cars before 1969 that had these stickers on them? Just want to confirm that.............
+1 I know Bob and I have had the discussion many times about how hard it is to know what others don't know - we often assume that many details that we believe are common knowledge really are not. The only way we discover these differences is to share and talk about tons of stuff ;)
This is just one of these things - guessed that you already knew about the decals and that they had been used since 65 production
One of the nicer 65 examples - in this case a Dearborn car
Likely have them (if I looked hard and would accept ones of lesser condition) examples from every year. Not that there are any differences, that I've noticed or their location of application
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-050315025031.jpeg)
BTW nothing in the four reports from the annual meetings related to the tie downs - though it was a nice refresher to reread some of the issues and complaints
-
Bob.....so you are saying for sure you have seen original cars before 1969 that had these stickers on them?
Marcus,yes I have seen the stickers on the rear valance of 65-69 (years of interest)Mustangs for many years.
... Plus the stickers are illustrated in the assembly manuals in the body section. I think even without personal visual confirmation the fact that they are illustrated attached to the rear valance in the assembly manual would be enough of a smoking gun for a skeptic on the subject.
One of the nicer 65 examples - in this case a Dearborn car
Likely have them (if I looked hard and would accept ones of lesser condition) examples from every year. Not that there are any differences, that I've noticed or their location of application
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-050315025031.jpeg)
Very important to note this decal and the TSB are for ONLY factory installed DUAL EXHAUST EQUIPPED MUSTANGS,models. (read as only cars with the LONG tie down brackets) not for the single exhaust or Cougars since they have been involved in this thread.
I checked the 67 Osborn Body manual and it notes it for Dual Exhaust, and so does the TSB. I imagine other year assembly manuals will note the same, for GT dual exhaust
NEW QUESTION then. Does this indicate that the single exhaust car tie down brackets were not requested to be removed and/or returned?
Richard
-
Richard, the decals were used on all cars. Here is a picture of the one on my 65 vert, single exhaust .
-
I am under the opinion that its not typical that the single exhaust style tie down brackets were removed from cars. They dont cause a clearance issue so would not see a reason to be removed.
As for returning the tie down brackets to the assembly plant there is no documentation anywhere that shows this was done or requested to be done. Or at least havent come across anything yet.
-
I am under the opinion that its not typical that the single exhaust style tie down brackets were removed from cars. They dont cause a clearance issue so would not see a reason to be removed.
Have to disagree - have seen plenty of cars without so where did they go?
Think your focusing on this 69 TSB as a sole indicator. Nothing in the print suggests IMHO to ignore the factory placed decal if its a single exhaust car nor did they stop installing the decal on single exhaust cars in 69. Don't think they spent all those dollars on the decals and the instructions because they liked spending Ford's money ::)
-
So the decal was placed on all cars (single & dual exhaust)? I must have misread the '67 assembly manual, will look again tonight when I get home.
Sorry for any misleading information, I'll re-read the notes in the Osborn.
Richard
-
So the decal was placed on all cars (single & dual exhaust)? I must have misread the '67 assembly manual, will look again tonight when I get home.
The picture I posted above is from a single exhaust car have found them on other original single exhaust cars. Now have not cataloged each finding to specific year yet
-
OK, got home and looked again at the 1967 Osborn Body A.M., I actually did seem to read it correctly:
Last page of the manual,in the right column: (best I can make it out)
"8- (C4ZB-65104A76) DECALCOMANIA - DEALER INSTRUCTION, ADHERED
TO THE LICENSE PLATE AREA, SEE VIEW "B" (FOR DUAL EXHAUST
SYSTEMS ONLY )."
Now, other years (or earlier years) might be different instructions and nothing preventing assembly workers continuing old habbits from the earlier years. I'm not saying that other (67) single exhaust cars didn't get them but it looks more like they should NOT have recieved them, even if they did.
Just my opinion and I am no expert, just trying to help out with what I found in research.
I looked up the decal engineering number in GOOGLE and noticed there had been some troubled discussion over at the VMF forum several years ago. It doesn't sound like something everyone agrees on at this time.
http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/496980-my-first-mca-type-show-how-refresh-exhaust-manifolds-2.html
Richard
-
The 65 manual does not discriminate on single or duel exhaust. I do not have a 66 body manual to check . The 67,68,and 69 manuals do use verbiage to indicate duel exhaust only . I most likely is a case of slapping them on everthing that came down the line apposed to picking and choosing. I never gave it much thought until I checked the manuals because it has seemed to be non discrimate regardless of the year. We have seen other things disregarded like that . Pinch weld black out on darker colors, heater shield non removal, engine lift hooks to name a few. Just like those examples mentioned I have seen evidence examples of the tie down sticker on 66-69 single exhaust cars too.
-
Found this one while doing a search for another thread. Another single exhaust car with the tie down bracket decal. Sure I can find many more though their condition will not be as nice.
This time from 9F03F188xxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/3/6-050315194924.jpeg)
-
I have heard that Ford wanted those tie down brackets back, for reuse on other cars. I have a friend whose Father worked for a Ford dealer in the 1960's and 1970's. My friend said that his Father told him the dealers were supposed to remove the tie down brackets in pairs and send them back to Ford. I think that he said there was a 50 cent bounty on them. They didn't feel that it was worth while to remove, keep track of, and arrange for return for the half dollar.
-
Scott....the main problem with the idea of returning them is that as of today nobody has ever seen any documentation that talks about this. With as Many Ford and Mercury dealers there were at the time you would think there would be something out there. It may be more of an urban legend than anything else.
We certainly do think they were taken off some of the cars, just cant say for sure if they were returned.
-
The 65 manual does not discriminate on single or duel exhaust. I do not have a 66 body manual to check . The 67,68,and 69 manuals do use verbiage to indicate duel exhaust only . I most likely is a case of slapping them on everthing that came down the line apposed to picking and choosing. I never gave it much thought until I checked the manuals because it has seemed to be non discrimate regardless of the year. We have seen other things disregarded like that . Pinch weld black out on darker colors, heater shield non removal, engine lift hooks to name a few. Just like those examples mentioned I have seen evidence examples of the tie down sticker on 66-69 single exhaust cars too.
Maybe this decal situation could be tracked also in this thread (or another thread), as to whether or not they where put on indiscriminately, (for the 67-69's and possibly 66's, at least till somebody checks the assembly manual, for notes on dual exhaust) Like many assembly line variances, there may be periods where at the different plants and time periods that the instructions were followed and other times they were not. Just an idea if others support the research. To me, it doesn't really matter one way or the other especially since it is behind the plate.
Richard
-
Maybe this decal situation could be tracked also in this thread (or another thread), as to whether or not they where put on indiscriminately, (for the 67-69's and possibly 66's, at least till somebody checks the assembly manual, for notes on dual exhaust) Like many assembly line variances, there may be periods where at the different plants and time periods that the instructions were followed and other times they were not. Just an idea if others support the research. To me, it doesn't really matter one way or the other especially since it is behind the plate.
Richard
The people in the judging community typically do not deduct if the sticker is on the cars or not. The pre delivery process was in theory supposed to remove them but since many didn't and since it is commonly known to be installed on 65-69 cars regardless of single or duel exhaust it is the general practice by all of the judging staff I know not to deduct if installed on a car in a venue or not. location.With this said it renders this somewhat of a non issue IMO.
-
There is one example of a different location for the sticker that I can think of and a article including the stickers would not be complete without mentioning that on a 69/70 Shelby it was placed on the bumper because the license plate area was cut out for a exhaust port at Dearborn plant. Lot pictures show the detail. In that case no reasonable pre delivery detail would be complete without removing it in that obnoxious location on the chrome because it detracts from the car unlike the hidden behind the plate location. Good history to know but a deduction on the show field as it would have been removed almost for a certainty to make the car look it's best for a customer. Of course anomalies happen which reasonable proof for a extra ordinary detail would be expected.
-
Maybe this decal situation could be tracked also in this thread (or another thread), as to whether or not they where put on indiscriminately, (for the 67-69's and possibly 66's, at least till somebody checks the assembly manual, for notes on dual exhaust) ........
As we've mentioned in the past there is no way to know if that notation remained in the manual for a day or 10 (for example) months since we only have the few pages Jim was able to assemble and were clear enough to use. Like noted in the TSB's Ford often made a change only to reverse or change their mind weeks or months later. One example is spark plugs on certain engines
Where it works is when we find documentation and original examples that agree (as best they can with very limited variations from time to time) on the same detail
-
I started a new thread with a write up so we can easily find this information in the future....thanks for everyone's input here.
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=10724.0 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=10724.0)
-
Excellent job, and my thank you for including the picture of my car. Dudley
-
in jeffs post #44, does the “third” bolt going into the bottom of the framerail always have a washer?
-
in jeffs post #44, does the “third” bolt going into the bottom of the framerail always have a washer?
Considering your earlier posts and your assumed focus I take it that your asking in reference to 66 San Jose. In that case yes I've always seen a washer used on the bolt that enters/ attaches to the bottom of the rear frame rail
-
For those with 69 dual exhaust (Shelby GT500 2.25" pipes) that the brackets got left on (did they?) are there any interference issues with the rear springs, exhaust pipes and exhaust hangers? That's a lot of equipment back there. Looks like I'm going to have to swap mine and hopefully do so w/o losing too much skin from my knuckles.
(http://redshost.com/gt350/thumbs/tn_20180502_160832.jpg) (http://redshost.com/gt350/imgpages/image1395.html)
-
For those with 69 dual exhaust (Shelby GT500 2.25" pipes) that the brackets got left on (did they?) are there any interference issues with the rear springs, exhaust pipes and exhaust hangers? .................
Yes there were interference issues as well as customer complaints about rattles and noise associated with leaving them in place - especially on dual exhaust cars. There are comments in dealerships discussions with Ford, TSB's and so on related to the subject that is the reason the label was attached to most cars referencing their removal
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/6-020518192854.jpeg)
-
Considering your earlier posts and your assumed focus I take it that your asking in reference to 66 San Jose. In that case yes I've always seen a washer used on the bolt that enters/ attaches to the bottom of the rear frame rail
Yes, but what kind. My two San Jose Oct 65 builds had a split trapezoid lock washers (34783-S2, 7/16LKW, SPT, 0.446-0.464ID, 0.784OD, 0.121/0.091T, TPZ).
As documentation for the tie down brackets is not available, and this was an area that quality was primarily interested in "does it work", and not "does it look good", almost anything can be found.
Jim
-
............ and this was an area that quality was primarily interested in "does it work", and not "does it look good", almost anything can be found.
Not sure that I agree with "almost anything can be found" :) Maybe after 50 years but on the line there would have been hardware provided in bulk so that would limit what would have been used on the line. In my experience I have found that much variation on the washers at that location nor do pictures suggest it. Just what I've seen and have available.
-
Yes, but what kind. My two San Jose Oct 65 builds had a split trapezoid lock washers (34783-S2, 7/16LKW, SPT, 0.446-0.464ID, 0.784OD, 0.121/0.091T, TPZ).
As documentation for the tie down brackets is not available, and this was an area that quality was primarily interested in "does it work", and not "does it look good", almost anything can be found.
Jim
Flat washer typically.
-
Yes there were interference issues as well as customer complaints about rattles and noise associated with leaving them in place - especially on dual exhaust cars. There are comments in dealerships discussions with Ford, TSB's and so on related to the subject That is the reason the label was attached to most cars referencing their removal
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/10/6-020518192854.jpeg)
AO Smith cut out that area of the rear valance for the exhaust outlet, so did they apply new/replacement stickers in the fold down plate area?
-
AO Smith cut out that area of the rear valance for the exhaust outlet, so did they apply new/replacement stickers in the fold down plate area?
For the 69 - 70 Shelbys
I don't believe there is a general understanding at this time as to if they were added after the conversions or simple left off. There was a period of time were some though that they were attached over the rear bumper but not sure that trend of thought continues to this day.
I've never seen a period picture that shows one visible on the finished car
-
AO Smith cut out that area of the rear valance for the exhaust outlet, so did they apply new/replacement stickers in the fold down plate area?
I believe the Shelby registrar has some factory holding lot photos showing the sticker applied to the rear bumper. That would make sense given the rear valance being cut out. I will double check and see if I have a copy.
-
I believe the Shelby registrar has some factory holding lot photos showing the sticker applied to the rear bumper. That would make sense given the rear valance being cut out. I will double check and see if I have a copy.
Figured you would respond and would love to see a picture of it. The interesting thing is that the instruction to apply it on the rear bumper would have had been done by instruction at Dearborn or addition stickers supplied to AO Smith - know we've discussed the subject in the past. I know we built and showed it that way when we did Dan's GT350 based on the discussions at the time - just haven't seen it repeated at any show since then that I can recall.
-
Flat washer typically.
My two San Jose Oct 65 builds had a split trapezoid lock washers (34783-S2, 7/16LKW, SPT, 0.446-0.464ID, 0.784OD, 0.121/0.091T, TPZ).
That is what I found and documented a long time ago.
The bolts were the same as those used for bell housing to engine attachment for small block V-8s (64-66). The nuts were the same used for bumper attachment (64-66), all 7/16-14 threads, all common available hardware. After a couple of use cycles (if dealers returned the brackets and hardware), almost anything and in any condition could be reused. I do remember on one car changing from a 7/16-20 bolt and nut to 7/16-14 to be consistent. That was a long time ago.
Jim
-
That is what I found and documented a long time ago.
The bolts were the same as those used for bell housing to engine attachment for small block V-8s (64-66). The nuts were the same used for bumper attachment (64-66), all 7/16-14 threads, all common available hardware. After a couple of use cycles (if dealers returned the brackets and hardware), almost anything and in any condition could be reused. I do remember on one car changing from a 7/16-20 bolt and nut to 7/16-14 to be consistent. That was a long time ago.
Jim
Sorry, I got confused and thought you were answering for 69GT350H who is working on a 69 Dearborn car. In that context was what my answer was meant for.
-
Figured you would respond and would love to see a picture of it. The interesting thing is that the instruction to apply it on the rear bumper would have had been done by instruction at Dearborn or addition stickers supplied to AO Smith - know we've discussed the subject in the past. I know we built and showed it that way when we did Dan's GT350 based on the discussions at the time - just haven't seen it repeated at any show since then that I can recall.
Well I looked and I don't have a copy . I will have to reach out to Vinnie L. I don't think that the sticker on the bumper would have ever been left in place after pre delivery clean up . My reasoning is that unlike the regular Mustang sticker that is unnoticeable with a license plate in place it was sometimes left untouched. A large white sticker on the chrome rear bumper is VERY noticeable and would be considered as VERY undesirable and be removed on a otherwise cleaned up car ready for customer delivery IMHO.
-
...........After a couple of use cycles (if dealers returned the brackets and hardware), almost anything and in any condition could be reused. ..........
Think that was a big If as far as hardware being returned. Difficult getting the dealers to return just the brackets. :)
Well I looked and I don't have a copy . I will have to reach out to Vinnie L. I don't think that the sticker on the bumper would have ever been left in place after pre delivery clean up . My reasoning is that unlike the regular Mustang sticker that is unnoticeable with a license plate in place it was sometimes left untouched. ...........
Think we both agree that they did not remain intact as they did on non-Shelby's that year and in turn it makes it difficult to find photo documentation of their placement or use
-
Think that was a big If as far as hardware being returned. Difficult getting the dealers to return just the brackets. :)
Think we both agree that they did not remain intact as they did on non-Shelby's that year and in turn it makes it difficult to find photo documentation of their placement or use
Yes in agreement on both counts.
-
I'll add another one to the database...
This bracket was on my '67 Mustang that I purchased in 1982. Shortly after I bought the car, I noticed a very loud screech in the back every time I would go over railroad tracks or any sizable bump in the road. I quickly discovered that the tie-down bracket on the driver's side had been bent, and it was rubbing against the rear leaf spring (that's what caused the scuff marks that are visible between the 6" and 8" markings on the tape measure).
The bracket was definitely painted black - it looks to be the same type of thin black paint that was used on seat frames - and the car was a 390, dual-exhaust Fastback (7R02S193473) built in San Jose on March 28, 1967. I left the passenger side bracket on the car, and it was still there when I sold the car in 1986...
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10470.0;attach=18923;image)
I'm late to this discussion but I thought it was interesting that my SJ car, dated 3/2/67, has this exact same tie down, bolts (not sure on markings as the bolt is in the soup) and black paint.
-
Locking the subject because it is just getting way too long of a thread for others to find details related to their specific car. Findings and discussions can be posted in threads already started ( or start a new one if there isn't one focusing on your year and plant) for that purpose.
Just trying to keep things neat and cut down the confusion ::)