Author Topic: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out  (Read 4908 times)

Offline Angela

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body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« on: September 07, 2015, 07:52:38 PM »
I'm not very good at straightening sheet metal using body hammers & dollies... but I'm trying to get better at this. I have read a couple books on the topic and own a decent set of Martin hammers & dollies.

I'm looking for advice, tips, links to videos, etc concerning one significant issue I've run into with dents in my quarter panel:

The quarter panel in question had two compound dents wherein I wasn't certain where the original damage had stopped, thus (per the reading I've done) I wasn't really sure where to begin hammering out the dents. Nevertheless, I gave it a shot and was able to significantly reduce the dents and amount of body filler that will be required. However, I notice that if I apply pressure (with my hand) to the dent, it will "pop" inward, then immediately "pop" back out. This scares the snot out of me because if the metal does this once a thin coat of filler (spray-able polyester filler) & paint are applied, the finish will crack. I fear I've damaged the metal in some way and I don't know how to repair it. I once heard this sort of damage might be called "tin-canning", but I'm not certain of that.

Can anyone help me learn how to correct a dent/damaged sheet metal that will pop in & out with pressure applied to the dent? One of these dents requires only moderate pressure from a couple fingers to get it to pop in/out; the second dent requires significantly more pressure to get it to do this, but it will do the same thing if you push fairly hard.

Help????

Offline midlife

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2015, 08:58:57 PM »
That "oil canning" of sheet metal is caused by the metal being stretched.  Since it is now wider than before but has to fit in the same space as though it was not stretched. 

To fix this, you have to shrink the metal.  There are special tools and techniques to do so.  I don't have much expertise in that area, though.
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Offline 1969 Cale II

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2015, 09:42:38 PM »
A couple of ways to shrink metal are: using a torch heat a small area red hot and hit with a cold wet rag. Doing small area's at a time should get rid of the oil canning. The other way is with a shrinking hammer/dolly set, the thing that looks like a waffle board. Hitting the 2 together draws the metal into the small pockets shrinking the area. Practice is your best partner, you should be able to get it to stiffen up enough to not move. I have also cut the metal through the dent and realigned the metal and welded it. (last resort)

Offline suskeenwiske

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2015, 12:19:39 AM »
I'm looking for advice, tips, links to videos, etc concerning one significant issue I've run into with dents in my quarter panel:

Before long I'll be facing the same issue with a quarter panel. I found that Eastwood has some DVD's that cover body work but don't know if any include the techniques of metal shrinking. YouTube has some instructional videos that I looked into but didn't find any that I was comfortable with; seemed too abbreviated, as if steps were left out...maybe just me. Peterson Publishing has some Books that may be of help, don't know.

I have a shrinking hammer and dolly and will try heat as well but plan to practice on discarded panels first; I don't want to use my car as a Guinea Pig.
Be careful not to overwork the metal, I found out the hard way that this makes the metal brittle and will tear easily as a result. Ironically, I had to heat the metal to relieve the hammering stress. Luckily I wasn't dealing with oil-canning but I will be this time.

Ray
1965 Dearborn Coupe
6 Cylinder, AT, PB, PS, AC
Est. Build 23A

Offline Angela

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2015, 04:13:21 PM »
I have a couple follow-up questions:
(1) Can anyone recommend a good you-tube video on the "how-to" of oil-canning removal? I've tried several search phrases and found a couple videos, but I'd like to find a more basic, beginner's set of instructions from a more reputable person. I'm just not very good at coming up with good search strings.

(2) Someone recommended that I purchase a "uni-spotter" stud welder  with a heat-shrinking tip. I'm wondering if anyone can comment on such a tool they might own, which might help me select a decent kit. Through some simple google searching I found an H&S stinger-plus model 5500 which appears to be a reasonable mid-quality kit... yet is kinda spendy at about $400.

Thanks

Offline JKWilson

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2015, 05:37:41 PM »
Regarding a Youtube video, it's probably easier just to give you a search term and let you chose. There are actually a number of pretty good videos. For simple shrinking, just type in "shrinking metal". If you want to go the heat route, just add the words "with heat", e.g. "shrinking metal with heat". Since you don't have much experience working with metal yet, I'd strongly suggest shrinking your "oil canning" spot with heat. It's much easier to do and you don't stand nearly as much of a chance of further stretching the metal. Even with a shrinking hammer and dolly, if used improperly you will stretch the metal (more).

Just a few words of advice. One responder stated you needed to heat the metal red hot. While that may work for them, it is unnecessary and an inexperienced person could actually blow through the metal. The area just needs to be hot. You actually generate enough heat necessary with a basic propane torch. Depending on how big an area is stretched, you will need to heat and quench a number of times. One recommendation already given that I whole heartedly agree with is; get an old junk panel and practice your skills on it. Try to hammer and dolly a spot in a large flat area to induce an "oil can" stretch in it, then practice. Knock a few dents in it and work on your basic hammer and dolly skills. One final thing is that you don't NEED expensive metal working/fab tools. They make things much, much easier, but you can be creative with simple stuff and do the same thing. It's just a LOT more work sometimes! The end result though is the pure satisfaction in something you did. Good luck!
'66 GT Fastback,  Metuchen, 10/28/65, 289-4v w/4spd
'66 Sprint Coupe, Dearborn, 06/11/66, 200ci w/ C4
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Offline JKWilson

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2015, 06:06:24 PM »
Just so you know I'm not offering advice and have no experience, I too had a small spot on my tail light panel that oil canned. Hey, it happens. I took it out with the heat and quench method of shrinking. I've also done quit a bit of metal work on the car. Figured I'd add a quick few pictures of a couple of things I made for my coupe.

I didn't want to buy a whole outer rocker for just a small section so I made it. The results are in the first two pictures. It's the rear end of the right rocker ahead of the rear tire. It was made out of flat sheet. The most "advanced" tools I used were a nylon panel beating hammer and flat jawed pliers. I don't have a panel bag so I just used the ground. Other than that I just used a cut off wheel, a ball peen hammer and a piece of pipe to form curves against.

The top lip of the firewall was also rusted out, in addition to the cowl. Since the bulk of the firewall was fine I hated to buy an entire firewall just for the upper lip. I also fab'd the lip, again, out of flat sheet. The result is in the third picture. If I had a metal break and a shrinker/stretcher it woulda taken about an hour. Since I had neither it took about 6 hours! The end result is identical to the factory contours and shape. I used nothing special to fab it. Just a couple of pieces of angle iron clamped in my vice (a substitute for a metal break), a cutoff wheel, body hammer and dolly.

'66 GT Fastback,  Metuchen, 10/28/65, 289-4v w/4spd
'66 Sprint Coupe, Dearborn, 06/11/66, 200ci w/ C4
'91 LX Convertible, Dearborn, 08/91, 5.0 w/AOD
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Offline Angela

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2015, 06:40:15 PM »
Thanks for the advice... and nice job on your patch panel handiwork!!!

I am able to find videos on heat shrinking metal as well as a few that aim to stop oil canning. However, what I don't find is anything that explains WHERE to apply the heat. Heat the LOW spots to stop oil canning? Heat the HIGH spots to stop oil canning? Apply heat anywhere? I have no clue. I see lots of videos showing folks aiming a oxy torch at the metal, yet no explanation of why they're heating a given spot.

If I knew how to *create* an oil canning issue in a scrap piece of steel, I'd do so, just so I could experiment trying to eliminate the oil canning effect.
 

Offline JKWilson

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2015, 09:40:41 PM »
In answer to your question about heating the high spot or low spot, the answer is yes. Remember the high spot on one side of a panel is also the low spot on the other side. It may help you visualize everything if you outline the area of the oil canning. I'd recommend using a piece of soapstone or chalk, or a paint pen. If you use a Sharpie just make sure it is 100% cleaned off or it can bleed through top coats. To find that area start lightly pushing on the panel and make it pop in and out (oil canning). Move outward until the metal feels stiff again and won't move under light pressure. When you find that spot, mark it. Then start working around in a circular area attempting to locate the stiff areas and flexible areas, marking the "divide". Once you're all the way around the area you should have a somewhat circular or oval area. Find the center point of that area and that is where your maximum stretch is (or, the "high" point). This is where you'll start applying your heat initially. Depending on the size of your circle (oval, whatever shape), I wouldn't start heating an area larger than a silver dollar, smaller still if your stretched area isn't that larger. Heat and quench. Check to see how much it tightened the panel. It WILL be noticeable, even with the first time. It probably won't eliminate it, but you will notice some difference. Start working small areas around your starting point working your next spots in a circle around that point. Heat, quench, check. Through the shrinking you're drawing that "high" point back down and, basically, tightening it back up. You should not have to work all the way to your outer lines. If you find you're getting out there, move back in and start working back out again. While it sounds time consuming, it's actually a pretty quick process.

If you have dents and creases still in the metal in the area you need to shrink you can hammer and dolly them prior to quenching. Just don't touch the metal with bare hands! If you mess up and touch it, trust me, you'll only do it once!  :o  Also, if you hammer and dolly remember you're not whacking away directly on top of the dent/crease to flatten it out. Place the dolly on the back side and gently push out. Work the hammer around the perimeter of the dent/crease using light taps and almost a pushing motion as the hammer strikes the sheet metal, pushing towards the center of the dent/crease. The metal will be soft due to heat so use very gentle blows.

If you want to make an "oil can" dent I don't recommend using a piece of scrap metal. If you can find a destroyed fender or door it'll be easier to replicate. Locate the area with the least support (i.e. the broad area of a fender away from formed body lines, bends, creases). Use a large nylon or rubber mallet and make a nice big dent. Try not to make a crease in the dent. The metal has now stretched away from the blow. Now take a body hammer on the back side of the dent, supported by a dolly, and start flattening the metal from the outside edge of the dent inwards (towards the center). Use good strong blows so you really hear a good click on the dolly. After working it flat it should be nice and stretched because of how you worked it. Now, practice away!!

I didn't intend to make this reply as long as it has gotten, but discovered there's a lot in explaining as opposed to showing! Sorry for that. Thanks very much for the compliments and again, good luck.
'66 GT Fastback,  Metuchen, 10/28/65, 289-4v w/4spd
'66 Sprint Coupe, Dearborn, 06/11/66, 200ci w/ C4
'91 LX Convertible, Dearborn, 08/91, 5.0 w/AOD
'92 LX Hatchback, Dearborn, 5.0 w/AOD

Offline JKWilson

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2015, 10:00:22 PM »
Be careful not to overwork the metal, I found out the hard way that this makes the metal brittle and will tear easily as a result. Ironically, I had to heat the metal to relieve the hammering stress. Luckily I wasn't dealing with oil-canning but I will be this time.

Ray, you properly handled the issue you discovered. What you created was metal that was "work hardened". What you did, basically, is called annealing. Most metal shouldn't have to be worked so much that you get into that situation. Plan your work out, execute it in as few blows as possible and move on. I know that sounds over simplified, and it is! The least amount of hammering you can do creates the least amount of work and problems. One thing that took me awhile to realize is working metal is actual a delicate thing. You create problems by attacking it with the Hulk mentality...arrrr Hulk smash!! It actually takes very light hammer blows to get metal to move around. Obviously heavy damage has got to be "rough" shaped to a point through some brute force...emphasis on force. When you get to the finesse stage though, it's very light blows, almost "taps"! Up contact between the metal and hammer face there's actual a slight pushing motion in the direction you want the metal to move (as I explained to Angela). You can clearly see this in the technique of some body men, while others are very subtle about it. A good guy to watch is Kevin Tetz. He has some videos on Youtube in which he demonstrates working dents out. If you look them up, watch his hammer as it strikes and you'll clearly see that little "push".

BTW, don't be afraid to use your car as a guinea pig. There's pretty much nothing you can do that can't be undone or fixed if it screws up. Positive attitude man, positive attitude! ;)
'66 GT Fastback,  Metuchen, 10/28/65, 289-4v w/4spd
'66 Sprint Coupe, Dearborn, 06/11/66, 200ci w/ C4
'91 LX Convertible, Dearborn, 08/91, 5.0 w/AOD
'92 LX Hatchback, Dearborn, 5.0 w/AOD

Offline drummingrocks

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2015, 11:14:01 AM »
(2) Someone recommended that I purchase a "uni-spotter" stud welder  with a heat-shrinking tip. I'm wondering if anyone can comment on such a tool they might own, which might help me select a decent kit. Through some simple google searching I found an H&S stinger-plus model 5500 which appears to be a reasonable mid-quality kit... yet is kinda spendy at about $400.


I have a uni-spotter kit that is absolutely phenomenal.  I want to say I gave $4-500 for it back around 2007.  It has the shrinking tip, which makes fixing stretched metal a breeze.  Mine also came with a kit for replacing windshield trim clip studs.  I'll have to look when I'm home, but I want to say this is the kit I have (and this is the best price I've seen on it, hands down): http://www.amazon.com/Auto-Shot-9000-Welder-Stud/dp/B000GHYGHA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1442326408&sr=8-1&keywords=unispotter

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Offline Angela

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2015, 11:24:47 AM »
Thanks for the additional info guys! I still don't feel comfortable taking a torch or a uni-spotter to my car, but I'm learning a few things. I wish I could find just one decent video that clearly shows where and why to apply heat at specific spots while trying to remove either dents or oil-canning. Ugh, no such luck yet.

Can either of you comment on when/where I should use a torch, VS the uni-spotter? Obviously I could use the uni-spotter to weld studs to pull up low spots. However, in the context of applying heat in an attempt to remove oil-canning, is a torch always a better choice, or is the uni-spotter the tool I should reach for?

Offline drummingrocks

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2015, 11:27:05 AM »
Thanks for the additional info guys! I still don't feel comfortable taking a torch or a uni-spotter to my car, but I'm learning a few things. I wish I could find just one decent video that clearly shows where and why to apply heat at specific spots while trying to remove either dents or oil-canning. Ugh, no such luck yet.

Can either of you comment on when/where I should use a torch, VS the uni-spotter? Obviously I could use the uni-spotter to weld studs to pull up low spots. However, in the context of applying heat in an attempt to remove oil-canning, is a torch always a better choice, or is the uni-spotter the tool I should reach for?

I think it varies depending on the size of the area you're shrinking.  If you have a large area, a torch might be a better bet, simply because you can spread the heat around.  The uni-spotter is pretty much going to contain the heat to a small area.  If you're unsure, I'd say start with the uni-spotter; it's much less likely to damage or overheat an area than a torch.
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Offline JKWilson

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2015, 07:50:33 PM »
Thanks for the additional info guys! I still don't feel comfortable taking a torch or a uni-spotter to my car, but I'm learning a few things. I wish I could find just one decent video that clearly shows where and why to apply heat at specific spots while trying to remove either dents or oil-canning. Ugh, no such luck yet.

Can either of you comment on when/where I should use a torch, VS the uni-spotter? Obviously I could use the uni-spotter to weld studs to pull up low spots. However, in the context of applying heat in an attempt to remove oil-canning, is a torch always a better choice, or is the uni-spotter the tool I should reach for?

Regarding the area to apply heat, I thought I explained that quit clearly. I'd ask you re-read the description on how to locate size/shape of the area and once done, where in it to begin applying heat. You are applying heat and then quenching because the reaction of the metal to this is to shrink. You are shrinking from the center to draw the metal back tight. As the center shrinks it draws the surrounding outer metal with it thereby tightening back up the entire area. Some people like to chase the area, in other words, start from one side and work across. I don't believe in this method and think it's additional and unnecessary work that you create for yourself. There's a video on Youtube of a person doing this with an old military truck. He ends up chasing it from the bottom corner and working up and across the oil canning area. Once he's "done" he makes a comment about how it's much harder metal and the oil canning is gone. You can clearly see it's still flexible and as he pushes on it towards the top of his work area, uh oh! Oil canning!! Guess he wasn't done! Had he started in the center of the area and worked outwards he wouldn't have had his ooops!

In regards to torch vs stud gun, I'd have to argue that the torch is a better all around choice, not the least being it's the least expensive to purchase if you have neither (especially if you work with a propane torch). You also have a better chance of finding a friend with a torch you can borrow than a stud gun! The area you should heat with a torch is relatively small, though you can heat larger areas if desired. With the stud gun you have no choice but to heat a very small area. The chances of damage to the sheet metal are, for the most part, burn through. You can potentially hold the trigger on a stud gun long enough to burn through, just as you can hold a torch flame on the metal long enough to burn through (though those chances are almost nil with a propane torch!). The state of the metal is, in my opinion, much easier to gauge with a torch because you have better visibility of it where you are applying heat. If see the metal is red, it's hot. If it's orange, MUCH hotter. If it's white, you're about to melt through! That said, the torch will reach those points much quicker. The plus to the stud gun is you have no open flame to worry about as you would with a torch. You also don't have the higher consumables level (i.e. propane or oxygen and acetylene).

Bottom line, as long as you don't melt through the metal (with EITHER tool), you're not hurting anything. It may just take a few more tries to eliminate the stretching. You're never going learn it until you actually put heat to metal. Just like swimming you can watch a million videos on how to do it, but until you jump in the water you'll never learn! Good luck!
'66 GT Fastback,  Metuchen, 10/28/65, 289-4v w/4spd
'66 Sprint Coupe, Dearborn, 06/11/66, 200ci w/ C4
'91 LX Convertible, Dearborn, 08/91, 5.0 w/AOD
'92 LX Hatchback, Dearborn, 5.0 w/AOD

Offline ng8264723

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Re: body hammer & dolly work: dents that pop in/out
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2015, 07:16:49 PM »
Look up Wray Schelin and shrinking disc.  They are available on ebay fairly inexpensively and come with a dvd.  Get a junk piece of metal and practice.  they are easy to use and will float out dents