ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: FastLaneMustang on October 28, 2017, 09:44:57 PM
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I have a question regarding 4 speed transmissions used in K code cars from 64-66. Every book I’ve went thru says the HEH-T was only used until 10/1/64, which was then followed by the HEH-BX for ’65-66. I’ve went thru several posts on this forum that mentioned that the HEH-T may have been used into ’65. Does anyone have any additional info regarding this?
As an aside, I'm new to the restoration world (my day job I build hot rods) and I have to say this site is an invaluable source. Thank you all for sharing the immense knowledge that only years of dedication brings. I'm always concerned about the next generation and how they will learn about these cars and develop a passion for them. This is the type of forum that will bring them in and hopefully hook them. As for doing my restoration project, it hooked me.
Thanks.
Dave
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10/1/64 would be into/after the start of 65 production. But not sure what other posts your referencing. I would guess your asking if they were used/originally installed after Oct 1 1964
I have some pictures of -T's with later VIN's stamped in them but I hesitate assuming that the stampings are original at this point and will see what others have to offer
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The MPC was in error and it transcended to secondary publications or those that used the MPC as a basis. The HEH-T was used through '65 production or at least until very late in '65 production. I don't recall the exact date the HEH-BX started appearing, but it is generally accepted that it happened during '66 production.
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Charles, Jeff, or others
Does anyone know if the HEH-T was used in non hipo Mustangs, or in other cars? I thought they normally put wide ratios in the other stangs.
Interesting info on the production use Charles. I had only heard the couple months of use in Ks, so good to know the rest of the story.
Lastly, I have an extra HEH-T with no VIN stamp. What would have been it’s most likely use? regular Mustang, service replacement? It’s serial number is 014146. The HEH-T in my K is in the 011xxx range, and it’s an Oct 64 car.
Thanks,
Rich
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Does anyone know if the HEH-T was used in non hipo Mustangs, or in other cars? I thought they normally put wide ratios in the other stangs.
HEH-T is a close ratio tranny used in '65 hipos. There is an HEH-BT that is a wide ratio and used in '65 non-hipo cars.
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Thanks for the info.
Does anyone have any evidence of the HEH-T being used in regular Mustangs, or evidence of them NEVER being put in regular 289s? David Kees site doesnt even list it for hipos, not that he is an authoritative source. However, have a guy claiming HEH-Ts were used in non hipo cars as well because of that.
Also, what is the physical difference between a HEH-T and HEH-BT? Hoping its more than just the tag.
Thanks,
Rich
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HEH-T is close ratio, HEH-BT is wide ratio, the gearing is different.
Also, I'm not sure if the HEH-BT has the extra 'handle', I like to call it on the back that sticks up on a HEH-T.
I'd look closer for a VIN and check the casting dates of the main case and tail shaft.
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I have rebuilt quite a few Toploaders over the years and have had about half a dozen HEH-T transmissions. I have found just as many to have a K-code vin number as I have without. All of the transmissions I have had were already out of the car when I got them so I have no concrete evidence that they were used in non HiPo cars but it does seems plausible to me. Was there a option box on the original order form for close or wide ratio?
The David Kee Toploader website is convenient but it has flaws. The HEH-BT and also the RUG-AR are both listed as a close ratio. They are actually both wide ratio transmissions. These are just two examples that come to mind that I have dealt with in the past year so there may be others. I did send him an email about the issue as this could become a problem for someone who orders parts without counting gear teeth first but my message went unnoticed. The 1975 final edition of the Ford Master Parts Book has all of the standard transmissions listed in section 70 pages 1-14.
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HEH-BT is a wide? David Kee site below lists it as a close. If true, then that shows how inaccurate his site can be.
http://www.davidkeetoploaders.com/idchart1.htm
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I have rebuilt quite a few Toploaders over the years and have had about half a dozen HEH-T transmissions. I have found just as many to have a K-code vin number as I have without?
Thanks for the info. Mine has no VIN so assuming it came out of a regular car too. Has a L 13 date on the main case, which I take to be Nov 1964, which lends more creedance to it being factory issue vs service replacement
These are just two examples that come to mind that I have dealt with in the past year so there may be others.
Good to know. I can pass this along to the guy who is taking David Kees site as gospel.
The 1975 final edition of the Ford Master Parts Book has all of the standard transmissions listed in section 70 pages 1-14.
Thanks
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Typical VIN stamp area on mine
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Date stamp on main case which is a C5. So would this be Nov 13, 1965? Do engineering numbers go by calendar year of design or model year they were being made for?
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livetoride60- Some of the HEH-T transmissions I have found with a vin number are stamped across the bottom of the case with the numbers being stretched out more then the ones that are stamped on the the rear pad. I have also seen one that had the number stamped on the bottom edge of the rear tailhousing very much the same as the early Falcons and Comets were. The owner would not sell so I was unable to document the vin number but do remember it was from a coupe and I'm pretty sure it was built at Metuchen.
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Here is an example of one I once had with VIN stamped across bottom:
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Ok thanks everyone. I looked over all the usual spots pretty thoroughly but will check again.
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Is there a place to look up top loader serial numbers to get the date range, or would someone mind looking up the date for 014146?
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Is there a place to look up top loader serial numbers to get the date range, or would someone mind looking up the date for 014146?
No "list" that I'm aware of is available on line.
Believe its possible that each top loader version (HEH T) had their own serial number so collecting data will be difficult.
For comparison I have examples on record such a late 68 San Jose toploader with a 13588 but its on a RUG AD. Just an example
Not sure when they started or restarted the count at or from
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Thanks for the info. Mine has no VIN so assuming it came out of a regular car too.
I wouldn't make that assumption. There has been more than one reported example of HiPo cars coming through without VIN stamps on drivetrain, more often missing on transmissions. It's also been reported over the years to have happened more often in Metuchen. Ford also specifically calls out an HEH-BT for non-HiPo cars which have lower torque and horsepower ratings and would therefore benefit from a 2.78 first gear rather than a 2.32 first gear found in the HEH-T.
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I wouldn't make that assumption. There has been more than one reported example of HiPo cars coming through without VIN stamps on drivetrain, more often missing on transmissions. It's also been reported over the years to have happened more often in Metuchen. Ford also specifically calls out an HEH-BT for non-HiPo cars which have lower torque and horsepower ratings and would therefore benefit from a 2.78 first gear rather than a 2.32 first gear found in the HEH-T.
Thanks for the info. That's what i'm looking for. If anyone else has info of whether the HEH-T was / was not used in regular Mustangs, or "mostly" used in one or other, that would be great. Looking for the overall trend at a minimum.
Also appreciate the data point on unstamped drivelines. I'd read that before too.
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Also appreciate the data point on unstamped drivelines. I'd read that before too.
"Unstamped" drivelines? Guess your referring to the ones made from the section of the tube where the stamp/marking was not located. Since those out numbered the stenciled ones, couldn't tell that if you looked at "restored" cars out there, by two to one they are found through the whole production year.
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Hi Jeff - I didn't mean driveshafts, I was referring to engine and transmission. Maybe "drivetrain" is a better word. Was responding to sgl66's mention of examples of hipos coming off the line with unstamped engines and transmissions. If this is the case, then it could explain my HEH-T with no VIN stamp, as well as it could have been in a regular Mustang.
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Hi Jeff - I didn't mean driveshafts, I was referring to engine and transmission. Maybe "driveline" is a better word. Was responding to sgl66's mention of examples of hipos coming off the line with unstamped engines and transmissions. If this is the case, then it could explain my HEH-T with no VIN stamp, as well as it could have been in a regular Mustang.
Ok think we're on the same pager now. Maybe "drivetrain" would be a better use. As far as VIN stamping on transmissions there is documentation suggesting that ALL 4 speeds were suppose to get a VIN as it was an auto thief deterant (for performance parts/assemblies) so even one behind a C code. But there are not many reports or pictures of non K code with a A or C code VINs out there and not many looking for them.
Did start a thread looking for 67 examples (non-Shelbys) and have come up with few finds from that attempt
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there is documentation suggesting that ALL 4 speeds were suppose to get a VIN as it was an auto thief deterant (for performance parts/assemblies)
Was that a Ford document as part of the assembly/manufacturing process?
I know the government passed a law in 1966 which went into effect in early 1968 requiring a "public" VIN to help deter theft. This was where the VIN at the base of the windshield was born but did not specifically require stamping engines and transmissions. Link to the law in here https://www.dispatch.com/business/20200518/cars-we-remember-column-matching-numbers-fords-1968-and-beyond
I know Corvettes started stamping engines around 1960 originally just with assembly dates and identifying it as a Corvette motor which evolved to include the VIN by the mid 60's.
Vehicle theft in the mid 60's was apparently getting out of control partly due to the availability of master keys so another law was passed in the late 60's banning the distribution of master keys...interesting read https://books.google.com/books?id=jhBgR3w0FKYC&pg=PA20&focus=viewport&vq=Identification&output=html_text#c_top
Coming back to Ford, there were two motivations for adding the VIN, 1.) deter theft 2.) warranty claims. From a business perspective, it would make sense that Ford would be more concerned with warranty claims than theft deterrent. It would be more likely to blow up an engine than a top loader transmission behind a 289 which may at least help explain why the VIN is less often found on the transmission at least from what I've observed over several decades
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No, it was a federal law that all 4 speed transmissions be stamped with the VIN beginning January 1964. Long before the 1968 law.
Many cases were sold over the counter that had no VIN as spare parts. I know it was a huge deal because I split the case of a top loader 4 speed around 1977. The transmission shop ran the VIN (not original to my car) on the case through the local FBI office before they would work on it. I ended up getting another case from them - with no VIN.
Was that a Ford document as part of the assembly/manufacturing process?
I know the government passed a law in 1966 which went into effect in early 1968 requiring a "public" VIN to help deter theft. This was where the VIN at the base of the windshield was born but did not specifically require stamping engines and transmissions. Link to the law in here https://www.dispatch.com/business/20200518/cars-we-remember-column-matching-numbers-fords-1968-and-beyond (https://www.dispatch.com/business/20200518/cars-we-remember-column-matching-numbers-fords-1968-and-beyond)
I know Corvettes started stamping engines around 1960 originally just with assembly dates and identifying it as a Corvette motor which evolved to include the VIN by the mid 60's.
Vehicle theft in the mid 60's was apparently getting out of control partly due to the availability of master keys so another law was passed in the late 60's banning the distribution of master keys...interesting read https://books.google.com/books?id=jhBgR3w0FKYC&pg=PA20&focus=viewport&vq=Identification&output=html_text#c_top (https://books.google.com/books?id=jhBgR3w0FKYC&pg=PA20&focus=viewport&vq=Identification&output=html_text#c_top)
Coming back to Ford, there were two motivations for adding the VIN, 1.) deter theft 2.) warranty claims. From a business perspective, it would make sense that Ford would be more concerned with warranty claims than theft deterrent. It would be more likely to blow up an engine than a top loader transmission behind a 289 which may at least help explain why the VIN is less often found on the transmission at least from what I've observed over several decades
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No, it was a federal law that all 4 speed transmissions be stamped with the VIN beginning January 1964. Long before the 1968 law.
Never heard that before and that spans not only Ford but also Mopar and GM vehicles. Do you have a link to the law or some reference to it?
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I don't but Jeff has posted a link to it several times. It affected any car marketed for sale in the USA - domestic or foreign.
Never heard that before and that spans not only Ford but also Mopar and GM vehicles. Do you have a link to the law or some reference to it?
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I have also seen one that had the number stamped on the bottom edge of the rear tailhousing very much the same as the early Falcons and Comets were.
Just a follow up to this conversation I recently came across another hipo transmission that had the vin number stamped on the tailhousing. This one is also from Metuchen but is from a 1966.
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Just a follow up to this conversation I recently came across another hipo transmission that had the vin number stamped on the tailhousing. This one is also from Metuchen but is from a 1966.
Please post in Lost and Found over in the hipo site at www.hipo-mustang.com. It's a place owners can try to match up missing hipo engines and transmissions with cars.
Thanks,
Rich