ConcoursMustang Forums
Marketplace => Wanted Ads => Topic started by: 67gtasanjose on March 21, 2014, 08:34:12 AM
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I would like to find an engine tag for my early 67 Mustang 289.
Build date: Nov. 2., 1966 (tag date code H,J or K preffered ?)
4 barrel, premium fuel engine. (tag code 235)
Automatic Transmission (suffix code-A)
San Jose Built (not sure if it would be Cleveland or Windsor plant)
Thermactor Emissions (if it matters)
Air Conditioning ( I don't think this detail matters)
Question is also, what SHOULD the layout be on this tag, for those of you who have Bob Mannel's book.
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do you want to send the tag info to www.martiautoworks.com and get one made?
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They made C code GTAs, so you could go original with the tag, then say that you are mimicking a dealer intake/carb swap out.
Either way, the tag location is the same for a 289 thermactor engine, as shown in the picture.
The only data point I can offer close to your request is a Dec 20 C code, DSO 72 thermactor. This was an E-236-B Windsor built engine at level 15. The data code was "M", with no additional letters or numbers. Kind of tight from a timing perspective.
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OK, I have found where i can get the bolt-on tags made up, but I now need the correct numbers to have stamped onto it.
I understand maybe Bob Mannel's book might help too, but I do not have one (yet)
So again, here are the stats:
67 San Jose built 289 4V Auto & Air with Thermactor. Scheduled build date Nov. 2, 1966
I've also installed a 3L00 8 inch locker out of a 69 Comet into it. I've found some tag info on that one, but maybe a confirmation there too.
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If they would do it for me, sure I would. Problem being that my VIN isn't correct
Marti Auto Works do cater if you don't have a tag, you can provide your VIN, and they'll research and provide you with an exact engine tag to suit...
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Marti Auto Works do cater if you don't have a tag, you can provide your VIN, and they'll research and provide you with an exact engine tag to suit...
+1 Just got mine for my Boss - just provided the VIN.
Prepare to wait a while. ;)
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I have a car that is exactly what you are looking for except my build date is late December. Tag is as follows:
289 C 67 14
6-M E 235-A
My car is an A code with Thermactor, DSO 71, PS, PB, built at San Jose.
Hope this helps,
John
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289 C 67 14
6-M E 235-A
My car is an A code with Thermactor, DSO 71, PS, PB, built at San Jose.
Hope this helps,
John
Helps a lot John, thamks!
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I have a car that is exactly what you are looking for except my build date is late December. Tag is as follows:
289 C 67 14
6-M E 235-A
My car is an A code with Thermactor, DSO 71, PS, PB, built at San Jose.
Hope this helps,
John
Thanks John. Can you tell us if your engine heads have internal ports or use external "logs" for air injection?
Mine was built Dec 20, but a C code, also DSO 71 with thermactor.
289 E 67 FoMoCo
M E-236-B 15
Observations:
1. The A code came from Cleveland, whereas the C code came from Windsor
2. Both the A "235" and C "236" match the Mannel book Appendex A page 6 table.
3. The C was at level 15, but the A was at level 14. In agreement as well in Mannel's book, with the switch from 14 to 15 occurring in November in Windsor, but in February in Cleveland.
4. Notes 13 and 14 in appendix A page 9 indicates that the engine code suffix A corresponds to level 14, and B corresponds to level 15.
Level 14 to 15 changes:
1. Heavier duty springs
2. Recalibrated carb/dist/timing and higher lift cam (C code/auto only) for improved emissions reduction
3. Accessory pulley sizes
4. Heads with machined internal air passages for thermactor air injection
What is most interesting is that I do not see anything in the book that discusses how the engine tag distinguished between a thermactor and non thermactor engine.
Before looking at Mannel's Appendix A "Engine tag numbers", I would have assumed that the core number (235/236/etc) would have been unique for thermactor engines. But that did not occur until 68 (283 = J code with thermactor, 284 = J code with Imco)
Since there was nothing to distinguish the two in the tagging, I can think of two options:
1. They relied on the obvious visual cues. Not likely - there is enough human error with a numbering system. Relying on visual cues is even worse.
2. The thermactor system was installed at the factory along with other accessories. But that does not make sense because the carb/dist/timing was different for thermactor.
So I'm missing something. Hopefully not obvious.
It is also strange that according to Mannel's book, and based on the two engine tags discussed here, that Ford used the department of redundancy department plan for levels. To use the "A" suffix, and denote "14" on the tag, and to use "B" that corresponds with "15" is a waste. And Ford was usually not wasteful. I was really hoping that the "A" suffix was for non thermactor, while the "B" was for thermactor, but that did not work out.
I suppose we need more examples.
To 67gtasanjose - if you really want to get the engine correct, I suggest you pick up the aforementioned book. There are a lot of differences between the Cleveland and Windsor engines, and differences as mentioned between level 14 and 15.
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Thanks John. Can you tell us if your engine heads have internal ports or use external "logs" for air injection?
Mine was built Dec 20, but a C code, also DSO 71 with thermactor.
289 E 67 FoMoCo
M E-236-B 15
Observations:
1. The A code came from Cleveland, whereas the C code came from Windsor
2. Both the A "235" and C "236" match the Mannel book Appendex A page 6 table.
3. The C was at level 15, but the A was at level 14. In agreement as well in Mannel's book, with the switch from 14 to 15 occurring in November in Windsor, but in February in Cleveland.
4. Notes 13 and 14 in appendix A page 9 indicates that the engine code suffix A corresponds to level 14, and B corresponds to level 15.
Level 14 to 15 changes:
1. Heavier duty springs
2. Recalibrated carb/dist/timing and higher lift cam (C code/auto only) for improved emissions reduction
3. Accessory pulley sizes
4. Heads with machined internal air passages for thermactor air injection
What is most interesting is that I do not see anything in the book that discusses how the engine tag distinguished between a thermactor and non thermactor engine.
Before looking at Mannel's Appendix A "Engine tag numbers", I would have assumed that the core number (235/236/etc) would have been unique for thermactor engines. But that did not occur until 68 (283 = J code with thermactor, 284 = J code with Imco)
Since there was nothing to distinguish the two in the tagging, I can think of two options:
1. They relied on the obvious visual cues. Not likely - there is enough human error with a numbering system. Relying on visual cues is even worse.
2. The thermactor system was installed at the factory along with other accessories. But that does not make sense because the carb/dist/timing was different for thermactor.
So I'm missing something. Hopefully not obvious.
It is also strange that according to Mannel's book, and based on the two engine tags discussed here, that Ford used the department of redundancy department plan for levels. To use the "A" suffix, and denote "14" on the tag, and to use "B" that corresponds with "15" is a waste. And Ford was usually not wasteful. I was really hoping that the "A" suffix was for non thermactor, while the "B" was for thermactor, but that did not work out.
I suppose we need more examples.
To 67gtasanjose - if you really want to get the engine correct, I suggest you pick up the aforementioned book. There are a lot of differences between the Cleveland and Windsor engines, and differences as mentioned between level 14 and 15.
John, you are asking some of the same questions I had. e.g. Cleveland must have produced the 4V, Windsor the 2V, this was one of them.
Change Level 14 and 15 also must come into play here too, with this discussion and another thread I was on, it looked as though there were two different dates on the change level too.
As far as the suffix "A" and "B", I was under the understanding that denotes MANUAL or AUTO transmissions.
I also understand the "E" Prefixes presumably reffer to the Thermactor engines
I am also interested in knowing if the other John's car was external or internal injection...that being the 2nd question I still have.
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For 1967
231 = C code -man trans.
236 = C code -auto trans.
235 = A code -auto trans.
250 = A code -man trans.
245 = K code -man trans.
246 = K code -auto trans.
The A/B suffix according to Mannel's book, at least for the year/engine we are focusing on, represents level 14/15.
Since the core tag number is different for auto vs. man, there is no reason to change the suffix for the same thing.
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My car has the internal ports for air injection.
John
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My car has the internal ports for air injection.
Thanks John. Not what I expected based on reading Mannel's book, page 7-6, item 7B1. I don't think I'm misinterpreting the book. The book did come with an errata sheet listing 2 pages of changes to correct errors and omissions. I looked through the most recent list of changes on the web site, but there are no corrections to chapter 7 at all. http://www.fordsmallblock.com/frame.htm (http://www.fordsmallblock.com/frame.htm)
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Thanks John. Not what I expected based on reading Mannel's book, page 7-6, item 7B1. I don't think I'm misinterpreting the book. The book did come with an errata sheet listing 2 pages of changes to correct errors and omissions. I looked through the most recent list of changes on the web site, but there are no corrections to chapter 7 at all. http://www.fordsmallblock.com/frame.htm (http://www.fordsmallblock.com/frame.htm)
I was half expecting the same, based on your exherts from the book. Actually not too surprised. There probably isn't a lot of info printed on these early t/e engines that is 100% correct.
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7R02A John, would you mind uploading a picture or private messaging a shot of your tag? It sounds like it is only maybe 4 to 6 Weeks incorrect by date for what I am search. Would like to see the layout.
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Here is a picture of my engine tag. Below is the casting dates from my engine. I can provide additional pictures, if it is of use to anyone.
Engine Block
6M7 original
Cylinder Heads
6L18 original
Intake Manifold
6M7 original
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Here is a picture of my engine tag. Below is the casting dates from my engine. I can provide additional pictures, if it is of use to anyone.
Engine Block
6M7 original
Cylinder Heads
6L18 original
Intake Manifold
6M7 original
Thanks so much for your information and photo of the Tag. Thank you everyone else for everything contributed to this post. Going by all of the information I could research here and elsewhere, I was able to have a reproduction tag made that, to the best of my understanding, is at least 98% authentic in details of appearance and content.
Some things just cannot be done on your own.
This forum has been one of the greatest sources of information, I believe a source of information that cannot be found anywhere else in the world. Much gratitude!
Richard
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For 1967
231 = C code -man trans.
236 = C code -auto trans.
235 = A code -auto trans.
250 = A code -man trans.
245 = K code -man trans.
246 = K code -auto trans.
The A/B suffix according to Mannel's book, at least for the year/engine we are focusing on, represents level 14/15.
Since the core tag number is different for auto vs. man, there is no reason to change the suffix for the same thing.
Is there also some information available like above on
239
240
Btw. I have read that 2V have been build in Cleveland as well.
Thx
Ralf