Topic: Parts "cobbing" fraud?

[workhorse]

Interesting thread on boss302 site.

http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=69447.0


Workhorse

[Toploader]

Very informative. Thanks for posting this.

[CharlesTurner]

I only did something like this once, but it was a concours trailered MCA gold winner.  Before auctioning it in Scottsdale, I swapped out some NOS parts with repro, but everything I exchanged would have been completely acceptable for MCA concours, so I did not change anything that would have compromised the car from getting anything less than a gold.  For instance, I replaced the NOS trunk mat with a repro, NOS gas cap with a repro and some other little odds and ends.  These kind of NOS parts are not required for concours and are overkill to the standards of the class.

On the '65 K convertible T-bred car I did that has won the authenticity award 2X, nothing has been changed from when it was shown.  There were no 'borrowed' parts used either.  If the owner ever decides to sell, we will discuss whether or not to remove some of the parts, but then that would be completely disclosed when selling.  I would never strip down a T-bred car of all its rare parts and try to sell it on 'T-bred' merits/awards.

[Brian Conway]

Interesting subject.  It seems, to me, anytime a hobby or a past time becomes an obsession dishonesty and the subsequent rationalizations are not far behind.  Brian

[Smokey 15]

Interesting subject.  It seems, to me, anytime a hobby or a past time becomes an obsession dishonesty and the subsequent rationalizations are not far behind.  Brian

 Very true. If a car is being offered for sale, all the parts that are on it in any pictures, advertisements, etc., should be intact. I have heard of guys switching parts after a deposit was taken. Total thieves.

[mwizz]

I agree

[Dirk Pitt]

Anyone considering using judging sheet(s) to verify authenticity when buying a car needs to get the seller to sign a disclosure where the seller affirms the car is exactly as described in the judging sheet(s).  If the seller won't sign - then don't buy.  The more expensive the car in question, the more you should rely on a legally binding seller disclosure.

[CharlesTurner]

Anyone considering using judging sheet(s) to verify authenticity when buying a car needs to get the seller to sign a disclosure where the seller affirms the car is exactly as described in the judging sheet(s). 

That would be a good start, but what's to say something was overlooked in the judging, which is quite common? 

About the only failsafe is to have a pre-purchase inspection done by an expert who knows what's right and wrong.

[Smokey 15]

That would be a good start, but what's to say something was overlooked in the judging, which is quite common? 

About the only failsafe is to have a pre-purchase inspection done by an expert who knows what's right and wrong.

 /\/\/\ Best advise. It may cost a few bucks up front, but save a lot more in the long run.  And, if you can, go with cash in hand and take the vehicle with you immediately.  Don't forget to get insurance immediately!

[Toploader]

About the only failsafe is to have a pre-purchase inspection done by an expert who knows what's right and wrong.

...and keeping your fingers crossed that the seller doesn't help himself until the delivery of the car has taken place. 

[J_Speegle]

That would be a good start, but what's to say something was overlooked in the judging, which is quite common? 

About the only failsafe is to have a pre-purchase inspection done by an expert who knows what's right and wrong.

Add to this, take allot of pictures of details and parts during that inspection to confirm later what was there at the time. Keep those pictures on the card or chip (no renaming, altering, adjusting ....) with the car's paperwork just in case.

Still things will get missed and overlooked but given the situation think its be best path to choose.

[mikeljgt500kr]

There is a famous Corvette dealer in the Midwest, where I have several friends that insist on taking delivery of the car immediately after the inspection, not waiting till the next day, etc. just for this reason and that dealer's reputation of switching parts.

[PerkinsRestoration]

 What's your opinion on "borrowed parts" in classes that require original or date code correct nos parts? Is it a form of cheating? I think it is. What say you.

[CharlesTurner]

What's your opinion on "borrowed parts" in classes that require original or date code correct nos parts? Is it a form of cheating? I think it is. What say you.

If the parts are borrowed and only installed on the car for a show and then removed afterwards, then I would have to say that is cheating.  I don't know how it's possible to know the parts are borrowed though.

[J_Speegle]

Think we're mixing selling a winning car without all the winning parts and showing a car with parts from different sources.  Not sure if this is going to read as I expect it to be read but I'll give it a try

IMHO it's not "cheating" since the rules don't require all the parts to be original to that particular car and since plenty of parts are removed, replaced and so on during a restoration. So this seems to be only about (in the showing part of the discussion) when they were changed, added or replaced. BTW the rules don't require you to even own the car - theoretically you could borrow or rent a car and show it.  Yes its been done.

Is it "cheating" to blend in new metal into another panel so that it looks untouched? Or using a quality reproduction part in place of an unfound original? Is it the source of the parts that makes it "wrong"? Can I take a better part from another one I own and use it on the car I'm showing and never remove it?


At this point I believe that a judge is asked to evaluate only what is presented to them - at that moment, with no regard for how good or poor the car was when it started the restoration process, how much money the owner had/has or in fact anything about the owner or restorer. The car is what it is and the rules guide the judges through the limitations spelled out in them

IMHO at this point its not my job as a judge to concern myself with where the parts came from, how much was paid for them or what will happen with the car once it leaves the show field, after the event, show ....... I can have my opinion - but after the show that is all it is.  But I guess this new question is not directly aimed at judging a car or the award but the choice an owner or restorer makes. Making policing and the judging aspect moot.

Think this line of discussion will only lead us to opening a can of worms many of us have been down before.  Fun for a little while, discussing the possibilities and unanswerable questions, but to what end?


Now the whole selling a "award car", without all the parts, that made it an awards car without full disclosure is a completely different subject.

Just me - and I respect that others may have differing opinions

Oh - did find the use of the term "cobbing" and interesting one.