Author Topic: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C  (Read 1763 times)

Offline 196667Bob

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Recently, I was going through the Engine Compartment on my January 31 Built, Dearborn Convertible, to see what I still needed to make the Engine Compartment as "Concourse correct" as practical. One of the items that I hadn't addressed as yet was the Voltage Regulator.  It was still attached to the Radiator Support, along with the Radio Noise Suppression Condenser.

Any printing which may have been on the Cover, was long gone. I looked at the underside as I thought that I remembered that originals were dated on the underside ; no date. While the Cover was of screw on type, the screws were not slotted round head self-tapping as the originals should be, but slotted hex head self-tapping.  I came to the conclusion that while "period correct", and mechanical as opposed to electronic, it must be an aftermarket replacement.  Having heard all of the "horror stories" associated with the Reproduction Electronic Voltage Regulators, I decided that I wanted to keep the mechanical Regulator, and just get the correct Reproduction Cover.

As I needed other Parts, and knew that NPD sold AMK Regulators and Covers, I went to NPD's site.  In looking at the "covers only", I was surprised to see that the C5TF cover was shown to be for 1967 with A/C or Power Top. This then implies that the 55 amp Alternator was used for either A/C (which I knew), or the Power Top. I did not remember ever seeing that the Power Top without A/C required the 55 amp Alternator. I then went to NPD's 2020 printed Catalog. It also had the notes that not only the Cover, but the Reproduction Voltage Regulators with the C5TF stamping, were used with the Power Top. Out of curiosity. I went to the "New Concourse Alternators" section of NPD's Catalog. Interestingly, for the 1967 55 amp Alternators shown, the only caveat noted is "with A/C", or "with A/C and PS". Now I was really confused. I then went to AMK's site. It lists the Regulators and Covers by Alternator amperage, not by Application.

Before going any further, I decided it was now time to dive into my 55+ year collection of Ford publications, specifically of course related to 1967 Mustangs. This included, but was not limited to the 1967 only MPC, 1960-68 MPC, 1965-1972 MPC, 1967 Preliminary Shop Manual, 1967 Shop Manual, 1967 Spec Book, 1967 Ford Car Facts Book, 1967 Assembly Manuals, Showroom Option Album, Salesman's Pricing guide, 1967 Product Line Book, Marti Report, etc.). I also went page by page through all of the 1967 Shop Tips and TSB's from July of 1966 Through January of 1968. I found absolutely no Ford publication that shows that a C5TF printed Voltage Regulator (and thus a 55 amp Alternator) was used for a Convertible with Power Top ;  to the contrary, in the 1967 Ford Car Facts binder, it show both in the Mustang Section and the Engine Section, that the standard 38 amp Alternator was used for all applications except the Hi-Performance 289 (which used a 42 amp Alternator), and Factory A/C which required a 55 amp Alternator (copies attached).

Even with all of the resources I have, there is always a chance that more exists "out there". Could be in the form of Special Service Bulletins, Corporate Memos, or who knows what else.

With my "homework" done, it was now time to contact NPD to see what Ford documentation they had which led them to note that a C5TF Voltage Regulator (and thus a 55 amp Alternator) was required for a 1967 Mustang Convertible with Power Top and no A/C.  I contacted Scott Halseth, who handles the Ford Parts and Suppliers for NPD. Scott advised me that with all of the Ford Parts and Suppliers that he deals with, there is no time to research each Part as to its application. He said he has to rely on the Suppliers for that information. I then noted to him that I had checked AMK's website, and they only listed the Voltage Regulators in relation to the size (amperage) of Alternators. Scott suggested that possibly a previous website of AMK's had listed that the Power Top without A/C as requiring the 55 amp Alternator, and that notation was inadvertently omitted from AMK's latest site update. He suggested that I contact AMK.

I then contacted AMK, and explained everything that I have noted above. Max got back to me the next Business Day, and noted that (I am paraphrasing) while it might make sense to have a higher amperage Alternator on a 67 Convertible with a Power Top, he had nothing that noted that a 55 amp Alternator (and thus a C5TF Voltage Regulator), was required by Ford to be installed on a 1967 Mustang Convertible with Power Top and without A/C.

In conclusion, based on the above, it is my contention that the correct Factory Alternator for a 1967 Mustang with Power Top and no A/C, is the Standard 38 amp Alternator, and thus the C5AF marked Voltage Regulator.
Of course, as with many items "back then", a higher amperage Alternator could have been ordered as a "Special Option", but one would think that would appear on the Marti Report or Invoice.

Should anyone reading this have any Ford documentation, or conclusive evidence from multiple Original examples, which refutes my contention, please Post it here accordingly (or forever hold your peace - lol).

Thanks for any help.

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2020, 10:41:23 PM »
I respectfully disagree. I would venture to say the the amp draw from the power top motor when operating exceeds that of any extra requirements over standard that the AC controls may put on the system . At the very least the power top motor adds substantial draw compared to other components . That substantial draw (so much so that it needs its one (fusible link/breaker) would be above and beyond what the base no frills 38/42 amp alternator system would be expected to power. With that said it is not unreasonable to expect that the higher capacity electrical components would be used just like with the AC. It is also given those same points that it would not be unreasonable to expect the high capacity components to be in place in concours competition at least until more compelling evidence suggest otherwise.  Occam's razor = the principle that, of two explanations that account for all the facts, the simpler one is more likely to be correct. More capacity needed =55 amp alt and C5TF regulator. Just my opinion.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2020, 07:33:43 AM »
SIMPLE way to check (if it ALSO hasn't been replaced).
What size battery tray do you have? 22F or 24F.

FWIW, I have factory AC, COMBINED with a different anomaly...my Marti Report doesn't list H.D. Battery option AND I had (yes, I said "had") a "dated correct" 22F battery tray in it.
Research at this forum has convinced me that my example OUGHT TO HAVE BEEN BUILT with the 24F battery and 55 amp alternator and certainly it makes better sense to have MORE amperage available than LESS amperage. I updated my battery tray. After all, it ALSO relieved me of hunting down a 22F battery that is essentially unobtainable.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 07:44:29 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline midlife

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2020, 08:55:00 AM »
I respectfully disagree. I would venture to say the the amp draw from the power top motor when operating exceeds that of any extra requirements over standard that the AC controls may put on the system . At the very least the power top motor adds substantial draw compared to other components . That substantial draw (so much so that it needs its one (fusible link/breaker) would be above and beyond what the base no frills 38/42 amp alternator system would be expected to power. With that said it is not unreasonable to expect that the higher capacity electrical components would be used just like with the AC. It is also given those same points that it would not be unreasonable to expect the high capacity components to be in place in concours competition at least until more compelling evidence suggest otherwise.  Occam's razor = the principle that, of two explanations that account for all the facts, the simpler one is more likely to be correct. More capacity needed =55 amp alt and C5TF regulator. Just my opinion.
I'll disagree here.  The draw from the power top motor is intermittent, lasting perhaps 20-30 seconds, and sometimes done when the engine is off.  The battery itself should be able to supply the power here, whether the engine is running or not.  The higher capacity alternator would be needed for something that is constantly drawing power while the engine is running (e.g. AC).  Using Occam's razor, the higher alternator is not required.
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Offline 67gta289

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2020, 09:52:22 AM »
+1  by far the largest draw from a current perspective is the engine starter motor.  It is "off the charts" higher than everything else combined.   But the draw is short lived and recharging of the battery is a matter of time (the marathon), not the same duration as the draw (the sprint).

The other more consuming items are the horns, cigarette lighter, power top motor...all of which Mid correctly stated are intermittent (horns except perhaps in NYC), and just like the much larger starter motor, the alternator can restore the battery within a reasonable timeframe (the marathon reference comes to mind again).

Mid stated that the AC is constant, which is a slight overstatement because the AC is not always running (unless you live in Florida moving to Arizona  ;D )  However, the point is still valid in that the AC reflects the heaviest electrical load that can be running for a very long time while the alternator is also trying to restore the battery after a start.

Digging a bit deeper, I don't think that the AC fan blower motor is significantly more than a heater blower motor (but I would need to test both to be sure), so I'm thinking that it is the AC clutch that tips the balance.  Or perhaps the AC clutch plus perhaps a larger blower motor draw.

The moral of the story:  Don't get in your Mustang at night, and after just starting the engine, with halogen headlamps and foglights on, with AC running with fan at full speed, while stepping on the brake, elbow on the horn, cigarette lighter in getting ready for a Pall Mall, and with an extra finger on the switch moving the power top down...  That is a recipe for disaster.
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline 196667Bob

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2020, 11:17:08 AM »
Randy and John : My thoughts were exactly that. The 1965 Mustangs (when a 20 amp CB was used instead of the Fusible Link) with Power Top and no A/C, and the 1966's with the Fusible Link like 67's, also specified only the "Standard" 38 amp Alternator.
I liken this to my '57 and '59 Retractables, with 7 motors, 13 relays and switches, and over 600 feet of wire, still only specified the "Standard" 30 amp Generator ; again, intermittent use. Like the Mustangs, only A/c required a larger (35 amp) Generator.

In addition, I would find it hard to believe that if Ford had required a larger than "Standard" Alternator for the Power Top without A/C, that it wouldn't have shown up somewhere in all of the resources that I poured through.

Again, the key here is "intermittent".

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Online RoyceP

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2020, 11:57:14 AM »
Ford would have made it abundantly clear if a higher capacity alternator / regulator combo was needed. I think the NPD catalog should never be your source of information for authenticity answers.


Randy and John : My thoughts were exactly that. The 1965 Mustangs (when a 20 amp CB was used instead of the Fusible Link) with Power Top and no A/C, and the 1966's with the Fusible Link like 67's, also specified only the "Standard" 38 amp Alternator.
I liken this to my '57 and '59 Retractables, with 7 motors, 13 relays and switches, and over 600 feet of wire, still only specified the "Standard" 30 amp Generator ; again, intermittent use. Like the Mustangs, only A/c required a larger (35 amp) Generator.

In addition, I would find it hard to believe that if Ford had required a larger than "Standard" Alternator for the Power Top without A/C, that it wouldn't have shown up somewhere in all of the resources that I poured through.

Again, the key here is "intermittent".

Bob
1968 W code 427 Cougar XR-7 GTE Feb 23 Dearborn C6 / 3.50 open
1968 R code 428CJ Cougar XR-7 May 13 Dearborn C6 / 3.91 T - Lock

Offline 196667Bob

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2020, 12:28:25 PM »
Royce : I fully agree. However, it is a source for Parts, and when I see something that is different than all of my resources say, I always have to wonder if there is something out there that I don't have which contradicts what I do.have. Particularly in this case where I couldn't find anything here on our forum which previously addressed my case.

If there is some Ford documentation that addresses a particular Part differently than what my resources show, then I want to know what it is. If not, then I would hope that the Supplier would make any necessary correction to their catalog and/ or website.

In this particular case, I believe that AMK has the correct approach ; listing what Voltage Regulator goes with what Alternator, and leave the application up to the purchaser.

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2020, 03:07:03 PM »
I'll disagree here.  The draw from the power top motor is intermittent, lasting perhaps 20-30 seconds, and sometimes done when the engine is off.  The battery itself should be able to supply the power here, whether the engine is running or not.  The higher capacity alternator would be needed for something that is constantly drawing power while the engine is running (e.g. AC).  Using Occam's razor, the higher alternator is not required.
How much power do you think that the AC pulls over a non AC? ;) Do you think that the power to the brush assembly on the clutch pulls more then the power top motor? if so why the thin 22 gauge ? wire in the feed to the brush and the thicker 18  gauge to the power top motor harness?
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 196667Bob

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2020, 04:00:58 PM »
Then why does a 22 gauge wire require a 25 amp Circuit Breaker for the A/C ? Obviously, because the A/C system draws more amps ; also, as previously mentioned compared to the Power Top operation, the A/C is not intermittent.

Of interest hee too is that in 1965, prior to going to the fusible Link in 1966, the Mustangs with A/C used a 20 amp Circuit Breaker.

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2020, 04:39:02 PM »
Then why does a 22 gauge wire require a 25 amp Circuit Breaker for the A/C ?
Bob,
For the record, where did you find the reference for this 22awg wire?
Jim
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Offline 196667Bob

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2020, 05:46:48 PM »
Jim : I didn't come up with that ; it was the "other Bob". I just restated what he noted. I actually thought it was heavier than 22 gauge.

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline 67gta289

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2020, 06:43:41 PM »
I made the statement about the AC blower most likely not drawing appreciably more current than a heater-only blower motor.  But in the next sentence I clearly stated (or I thought I did) that the AC clutch was the most likely item that tips the balance (requiring a higher capacity charging system).

I know that it is harder to move cold air, so the AC equipped cars might have a more aggressive squirrel cage design, which in turn would require more torque from the motor...resulting of course in more amps.  But I still think that this would be minimal.   
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2020, 07:16:36 PM »
I didn't come up with that ; it was the "other Bob". I just restated what he noted. I actually thought it was heavier than 22 gauge.
if so why the thin 22 gauge ? wire in the feed to the brush and the thicker 18  gauge to the power top motor harness?
Too many "Bobs".
So, Bob G, where is the 22awg wire shown?
Jim
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Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Voltage Regulator - 1967 Convertible With Power Top and Without A/C
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2020, 07:28:23 PM »
Then why does a 22 gauge wire require a 25 amp Circuit Breaker for the A/C ? Obviously, because the A/C system draws more amps ; also, as previously mentioned compared to the Power Top operation, the A/C is not intermittent.

Of interest hee too is that in 1965, prior to going to the fusible Link in 1966, the Mustangs with A/C used a 20 amp Circuit Breaker.

Bob
I posted a question mark after the 22 gauge because I wasn't sure and depending on memory when I had to make up some in the past prior to repros. The wire gauge is more like 20 gauge . I posted a picture of the thinner A/C clutch wire and the thicker power top feed wire.  The increase from the 14 amp fuse to the 25 amp circuit AC breaker was 11 amps more added to the system it seems. The power top fusible link is rated at 20 amps I believe.That indicates that the power top draws a significant load more then the A/C system draws above and beyond the base system. Now until there is a way to confirm or deny that a intermittent load of a heavy draw item like the power top is considered insignificant enough so as not to require a upgrade of the alternator capacity and considering when a additional significant electrical load is added typically requires a upgrade in capacity I think it is only reasonable and prudent to error on the side of caution. At least until more conclusive evidence suggests otherwise.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby