ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Suspension => Topic started by: FredG on April 30, 2014, 10:57:11 AM
-
Ok,
I know this topic has been beat to death and I'm still up in the air over this, but its time to replace the rear springs in my 66 (6S1826 - black/gold Hertz) and I'm wondering if anyone has any RECENT experience to share after buying rear springs.
I have the following:
Two correct original bottom leafs.
Correct repro bands.
Correct longer center bolts.
(I fully expect to have to reshape the ends/edges of whatever new springs I eventually use)
Given all the nightmare stories about incorrect ride heights for "factory correct repro springs", what I would like to avoid is having to remove brand new springs for de-arching after installation should they hold the back of the car up higher from what be considered "normal" or original ride height. Restoration is concours, Wheel and tire size (14") will be as close to original as possible.
Thanks,
Fred
-
If it is going to be concourse and not driven much, what about re-arcing the original springs
Bob
-
If you want new, about the only option is going with the Eaton leaf springs and installing the original lower leaf.
-
Bob, while I can't fully disagree with you, I really did not want to go with 48 year old springs. Although I'm restoring to concours, car will be locally driven. Charles, thanks for the response and you sort of confirm what I was thinking....basically that Eaton might be the lessor of the evils..?
Fred
-
I had a similar dilemma when restoring my ’67 Convertible last year – restore the originals or buy replacements? However, after disassembling the original rear leaf springs, it became quite apparent that the car would need new springs...
So using the “OE DESIGN LEAF SPRINGS” chart in the NPD catalog, I determined that my car (a 390 GTA Convertible) would require the #5560-25 Eaton springs rated at 135lbs (your car will probably use different springs). After they arrived, I wasted several days trying to get the black coating off of them (and I also noticed when I disassembled them that despite the coating, there was already some rust forming between the leaves!). BTW - don’t even bother trying to use heat guns, acetone, aircraft paint stripper, or a wire wheel on them - the black coating is impervious to all of these...
As has been mentioned many times on this and other forums, the bottom (shortest) leaves on the Eaton springs are totally inaccurate, but the other three do an okay job of mimicking the originals. The shortest leaves of the originals also have the Ford part numbers on them, so definitely restore and reinstall them if all possible – it sounds like you’re already good to go there...
I also soaked my bottom leaves in Evaporust to find the factory paint markings - although not all factories paint marked their springs on the bottom leaves...
-
Back to the black coating - I finally had to take them down to the restoration shop that was doing the bodywork on my car, and borrow their bead-blaster to get that all that stuff off. I then tried brushing some gun blue on them to darken them up a little. They looked great for about 15 minutes, and then started to flash rust rather badly!
So I cleaned off the rust with some more Evaporust, and tried the gun blue again - but this time I hit them with some WD40 almost immediately after the gun blue, and they stayed a nice dark metal color without any rusting...
I then coated all sides of each leaf with Rust Prevention Magic (RPM) and took them to a spring shop to have the correct circle hole clamps, front bushings, and insulators installed...
After that, I cleaned the RPM off of the rear portions of the bottom leaves so I could apply my green and white paint markings (2018 update: the paint markings should be green and silver). I know, they aren’t as “sloppy” as the original Ford markings, but I like them anyway. After the paint markings dried, I re-coated the bottom leaves with RPM and took them to the restoration shop for re-installation on the car...
So how do they perform? I thought they were perhaps a tad high when first installed, but after putting the spare tire in the trunk, adding a full tank of gas, and driving the car for about 800 miles, I think the springs have settled nicely, and the stance of the car looks pretty good now - and so far I have not seen any rust on the springs either (although I must admit that the car has never been driven on wet roads - yet)...
Hope this helps!
-
FYI if you order direct from Eaton Detroit Spring you can ask them to dissassemble and shot blast the leafs. Shot blasting is much preferred for spring steel. Then you can apply gun blue, RPM, etc. and reassemble. I had them do mine, and they did my original coil springs also at a small fee.
http://www.eatondetroitspring.com/ (http://www.eatondetroitspring.com/)
-
Hey Paperback,
Tnx for the response. This was exactly the info I was hoping to learn. BTW, your car looks beautiful. Question, the shot after 800 miles...its a little hard to tell from the camera angle, but does it seem that the rear of the car is down about 1" or so from when you first installed the springs? Also, is there an advantage for buying from NPD vs direct from Eaton Spring?
Thanks
Fred
-
67GTA
Thanks, looks like we posted at the same time! ;)
Fred
-
is there an advantage for buying from NPD vs direct from Eaton Spring?
Hi Fred,
Our retail price is actually a bit less than what you'd pay going direct with Eaton, and we keep all of the springs in-stock at all times for same-day shipment.
If you have special needs, or want a non-stock application, that's when it's usually best to call up Eaton directly..
Rick
NPD
-
Thanks for the compliment on my car Fred!
I think John and Rick both offer good reasons for when to buy from NPD and when to buy from Eaton directly. In my case, I was already ordering a bunch of other parts from NPD at the time, so the rear springs were just another item to add to the list...
Regarding the rear ride height of my car: yeah, I think the springs have probably dropped about an inch, but that's only an anecdotal observation - unfortunately, I didn't have the foresight to take any sort of measurements when the springs were first installed...
However, I did check the 1967 Mustang Shop Manual, and it says that the Rear Spring Rear Hanger Hole should be 15.57 inches off the ground. I measured my car this morning, and the rear hanger hole is about 14.75 inches, so I guess my car is sitting a little lower than stock in the back - but this could also be partially attributed to the tires, as the 225/60R15's that I'm using have a diameter (or height) of 25.6", while the original Firestone F70-14's had a diameter of 26.2" (and radials usually sit lower than bias ply tires as well)...
-
Paperback,
Again, thanks for the response. All along I was thinking that the tire circumference may have been adding to the illusion that the car may be sitting higher than normal ride height. Well. obviously bias tires on the street are not worth it, but settled out now after 800 miles, your car looks really nice. Thanks Rick also for the response. BTW, prior to becoming obsessed by the spring thing, I never really gave gun bluing too much thought. Holy crap, now I'm finding, hot blue, cold blue, rust blue., no rust blue, distilled water boil, no boil, liquid, paste! Yikes.. I think I got a take a chill pill!
-
Paperback,
Again, thanks for the response. All along I was thinking that the tire circumference may have been adding to the illusion that the car may be sitting higher than normal ride height. Well. obviously bias tires on the street are not worth it, but settled out now after 800 miles, your car looks really nice. Thanks Rick also for the response. BTW, prior to becoming obsessed by the spring thing, I never really gave gun bluing too much thought. Holy crap, now I'm finding, hot blue, cold blue, rust blue., no rust blue, distilled water boil, no boil, liquid, paste! Yikes.. I think I got a take a chill pill!
For big things like leaf springs you might want to try something like Insta-black rather than gun bluing. Found its hard to get a consistent finish on such a large- long part
-
Thanks Jeff, will check it out.
Fred
-
This thread has been very enlightening and I am considering much of what I read here to refinish my springs. However,
I have a question about the reproduction springs verses what is actually in my car. I have an early 67 Fastback and
my original springs are C7ZA AS. I bought springs from Summit Racing because the price was better and they were Scott
Drake reproductions that said they were for my car. Based on what I have read I was certain I would have to use my
original bottom leaf for the part number. But what I didn't expect was that my other leafs are different as well. In the
other posts in this thread you all seem to have the same springs that Scott Drake reproduced, but I don't. Can anyone
help me understand why mine are different and if I can get that type or if I should just use the Scott Drake ones. It would
bug me forever that they were not right, but I am not a millionaire either. Also my clamps are slightly different as well.
Pictures of my springs and the reproductions.
-
This thread has been very enlightening and I am considering much of what I read here to refinish my springs. However,
I have a question about the reproduction springs verses what is actually in my car. I have an early 67 Fastback and
my original springs are E7ZA AS. I bought springs from Summit Racing because the price was better and they were Scott
Drake reproductions that said they were for my car. Based on what I have read I was certain I would have to use my
original bottom leaf for the part number. But what I didn't expect was that my other leafs are different as well. In the
other posts in this thread you all seem to have the same springs that Scott Drake reproduced, but I don't. Can anyone
help me understand why mine are different and if I can get that type or if I should just use the Scott Drake ones. It would
bug me forever that they were not right, but I am not a millionaire either. Also my clamps are slightly different as well.
Pictures of my springs and the reproductions.
Your bottom leaf plate reads C7ZA not E7ZA like you wrote .I am not familiar with the Scott Drake ones or summit racing the ones from Detroit Eaton or virgina Mustang are the substitutes I have used in the past when I had to and they worked out fine. You will probably have to change out the straps holding the leafs together as the replacements sometime do not match the original depending on the substitute used.
-
Are the Repro bands being mentioned those that come on the Eaton Springs or are they sourced elsewhere?
Thank you
-
Are the Repro bands being mentioned those that come on the Eaton Springs or are they sourced elsewhere?
Thank you
You have to take them off anyway even if they were right (which they aren't) to get rid of the black paint on the leafs . The bands are sourced elsewhere.
-
What would that source be Bob? ;)
-
What would that source be Bob? ;)
Shelby parts and restoration and Virginia Mustang to name a couple.
-
10 - 4
Thank you
-
New here but am 2nd owner of 6T09K127xxx for 34 years.
Has anyone seen these bands before? Don't believe original owner ever replaced or had a reason to. I know that I haven't.
-
New here but am 2nd owner of 6T09K127xxx for 34 years.
Has anyone seen these bands before? Don't believe original owner ever replaced or had a reason to. I know that I haven't.
Never seen those used before on originals. Have you looked for a factory stamp on the short leaf/leaves and what did that provide?
Here is an example from a 66 NJ car - though built after your car by a few months
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/6-140814002655.jpeg)
In this case there are springs from two different suppliers that were installed on the car when it was thrown down
-
I don't see any part numbers stamped but springs show their age in surface corrosion and pitting. Have them wrapped in evapo rust soaked shop towels and plastic now, may uncover something but not too hopeful.
The dimples look more like the style on the bottom in your pic however the style of the middle (darker spring) in your pics do not match mine and mine also do not extend to where the bushing is.
Just to confirm, are the springs in your pic from a hipo? Build sheet says mine are a Z
Will get some better pics up
-
The dimples look more like the style on the bottom in your pic however the style of the middle (darker spring) in your pics do not match mine and mine also do not extend to where the bushing is.
Not sure why the two leaves are a slightly different color over all these years - IMHO would not focus on that given that they are 50 years old and untouched
Just to confirm, are the springs in your pic from a hipo? Build sheet says mine are a Z
Since you asked about NJ rear springs not sure that it will make any difference - don't believe any spring supplier used different clamps on just K codes or provided only springs for one of a dozen needed on the line. They didn't at the other plants - some using the same suppliers. K codes used the same rear springs as most if not all of the 66 GT equipped Mustangs - C4ZA- 5556-S from what I've found
Hopefully you can find the stampings with the dates. This might provide some additional clues
-
Sorry, didn't mean bands being unique to a K....meant the springs
No luck turning up a stamp or any markings. Need to go dig out previous owners journal of repairs to see if he did any rear spring work
-
Sorry, didn't mean bands being unique to a K....meant the springs
Springs are not unique to only K codes I've got examples of a couple of GT with the same rear springs as K codes
-
Been investigating my rear springs situation and I did connect with the original owner, his answer was he didn't remember changing springs but thought about it so he might have..? :-\
I pulled the bottom 3 leafs and the aligning bolts were a dead give away that he had opened them up at some point...a hex head bolt partially rounded off and threads apparently cut with hacksaw and snapped to shorten. (I know he had Shelby under ride bars and roll bar on when he raced it. He also gave me some lowering blocks so no surprise he was unbolting pieces at some point)
The bottom spring is not only missing a part number and paint but also missing a dimple at one end, otherwise the shape seems correct. The other leaves look to be an exact match to what I've seen restored on this site.
I have a new set still wrapped from VA Mustang purchased 10+ years ago. The bottom spring has square ends and the other leafs taper out slightly before rounding off at the end rather than taper in as I've seen here. (See middle pic below...end of top spring came off my car and end of bottom spring is old VA Mustang)
I spoke with VA this morning and they now claim to have springs with a rounded bottom spring that is visually correct...not sure about the others. Has anyone seen or used these recently?
I also spoke with Eaton and their bottom springs are not rounded at the end...not sure how the others taper at the end?
And for those who have seen everything, I had 1 rubber squeak pad that wasn't shredded beyond recognition. Do the 2 round mold impressions on the side and part number on the inside and arrows look like what would have been on an original?
-
What is the best way to determine what paint marks should be on the springs if you don't find any. Will my bottom leaf stamped number lead to any information about it?
-
What is the best way to determine what paint marks should be on the springs if you don't find any. Will my bottom leaf stamped number lead to any information about it?
Depends on what year
If 68 or later the best, most certain method would be to look at the cars buildsheet.
IF your car does not have any visible markings then posting a question in a new thread with year, build date or projected if a 65-66 date and the engineering numbers from the short leaf of both springs. Unfortunately if these springs have been installed by a previous owner that will do you no good.
Last resort would be to try and match up a car equipped exactly like yours, built at the same time and consider using these
Remember that no current class required paint marks and you can only lose points at a show for having them (if applied incorrectly or they are not correct)
Also consider if they are not correct you are responsible IMHO for everyone that sees and copies your mistake
-
For big things like leaf springs you might want to try something like Insta-black rather than gun bluing. Found its hard to get a consistent finish on such a large- long part
Jeff, which insta-black do you use, gel or liquid? Any idea how liquid compares with Eastwood metal blackner?
Thanks
-
Jeff, which insta-black do you use, gel or liquid? Any idea how liquid compares with Eastwood metal blackner?
Thanks
Believe for this purpose many/most are using the liquid