ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Misc Items => Topic started by: midlife on November 29, 2021, 12:38:48 AM
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Someone remarked to me that there were only about 20 distinct keys made for any one year, which I think is too low a number. But that raised an intriguing question: were ignition/door keys specified in the buildsheet? If not, how did they get tracked to the registration booklet? Was that done at the dealership? Any idea how ignition and door keys were assigned to the car as it was being built?
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Not on build sheets to the best of my knowledge
Its an interesting question, I suspect it was on paperwork in car somewhere and the small metal ring attached to the keys
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The keys came with rings with the codes on them. These were usually recorded on the car/buyer info in the owner's manual. I'd agree that there were many more than 20.
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Single cut Ford keys - 1000 combinations.
Double cut Ford keys - 1864 combinations.
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The keys came with rings with the codes on them. These were usually recorded on the car/buyer info in the owner's manual. I'd agree that there were many more than 20.
I have them on my dealer invoice also, one of them with an FN number above 300
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Someone remarked to me that there were only about 20 distinct keys made for any one year, which I think is too low a number. But that raised an intriguing question: were ignition/door keys specified in the buildsheet? If not, how did they get tracked to the registration booklet? Was that done at the dealership?
Agree with Pete this information was not included on the buildsheet. May not have been needed to be notated on any factory paperwork since the keys were included with the car. Dealer would have kept records of the keys so that it would make it easier if they were lost while in their car or the owner lost them.
Any idea how ignition and door keys were assigned to the car as it was being built?
Randomly assigned
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Fair enough. If the keys were randomly assigned to the cars on the factory floor, there must have been a traveler associated with the key cut number that carried it through from installation to final delivery out the door (and then on to the dealer) via owner's manual/warranty card? To me, that's a big hole for potential failures and QA snafus.
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Checked and the only place I can find the key set number is on early owners manuals suggesting to me right now that the dealers collected the information when the car arrived at the dealership or when the car was sold. Ford owners manuals didn't come with the car from the factories generally from my understanding.
Looked through my collection of warranty cars, both temp and official ones sent to owners from Ford, and there is no key identification coding on them on any that I have pictures of. Checked shipping invoices, basically the way that the plant identified the features and options of the new car to the dealership, and I see no key codes listed on the ones I have Couple hundred or so at this time
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Do the individual lock cylinders have the codes on them?
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One of the door locks does. I believe it is supposed to be the left one.
Do the individual lock cylinders have the codes on them?
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If the glove box is keyed it has the lock code on it for the glove box and trunk lock.
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One of the door locks does. I believe it is supposed to be the left one.
If the glove box is keyed it has the lock code on it for the glove box and trunk lock.
True on both counts and codes could be found on the trunk lock too. Regarding the door code, it actually could be either side, pending model line and/or production period.
Car thieves used this "feature" to easily make keys for cars made after hot wiring them so eventually, manufacturers quit coding them in such easier-to-find locations.
Cars used to also be shipped with the keys in the ignition but for obvious reasons, that ended too!
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Single cut Ford keys - 1000 combinations.
Double cut Ford keys - 1864 combinations.
Scott, thats a very interesting set of facts thanks for posting them, I never saw them before. :D
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Single cut Ford keys - 1000 combinations.
Double cut Ford keys - 1864 combinations.
Considering that there are 5 tumblers per each lock, and let's assume 10 different lengths of tumbler, that's only 50 combinations. Back to the chalk board.
Jim
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Considering that there are 5 tumblers per each lock, and let's assume 10 different lengths of tumbler, that's only 50 combinations. Back to the chalk board.
Jim
Jim - going with your assumption of 10 different lengths; associate the lengths with decimals. Then associate the 5 tumblers with digits on an integer. With that you would have 99,999 combinations.
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There are 5 different cut depths, and there are 5 sets of tumblers or wafers.
The combinations is 5 to the fifth power. or 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 = 3125 combinations. They didn't use every combination.
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The combinations is 5 to the fifth power. or 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 = 3125 combinations. They didn't use every combination.
That seems more reasonable. It was that or - "factorial" 5, or 5 squared (not really)
To use a quote from the past: "Math is hard".
(From a neighbor's sister's Barbie doll.)
Jim
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Considering that there are 5 tumblers per each lock, and let's assume 10 different lengths of tumbler, that's only 50 combinations. Back to the chalk board.
Jim
There are 5 different cut depths, and there are 5 sets of tumblers or wafers.
The combinations is 5 to the fifth power. or 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 x 5 = 3125 combinations. They didn't use every combination.
Indeed, there are I believe also only 5-depths of cuts once the code is decoded. Years ago, I had old locksmith books at a salvage yard and could punch out new keys, using a code book and a key cutter tool. It has been a long, long time ago...some things you kinda wish you had held on to...this tool kit being one of those things.
Everything GM & Everything Ford up to the late-70's anyway.
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Going to move this thread since it is not really related to buildsheets and is not really year specific
Just a heads up
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Looked through my collection of warranty cars, both temp and official ones sent to owners from Ford, and there is no key identification coding on them on any that I have pictures of. Checked shipping invoices, basically the way that the plant identified the features and options of the new car to the dealership, and I see no key codes listed on the ones I have Couple hundred or so at this time
Picture from a recent sale on BAT if this is what you're looking for https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-ford-mustang-gt-17/
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That looks to me like it was filled out at the dealership. The question remains: how did the dealership know what key codes went with the vehicle? Did they simply read the key itself? Was the key set delivered with the car? I would think no, as it would become a theft problem.
Questions, questions...
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That looks to me like it was filled out at the dealership. The question remains: how did the dealership know what key codes went with the vehicle? Did they simply read the key itself? Was the key set delivered with the car? I would think no, as it would become a theft problem.
Questions, questions...
Guess you didn't see my previous reply? There were rings with the keys that had the number on them. It usually says right on the ring 'Record and destroy'
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Guess you didn't see my previous reply? There were rings with the keys that had the number on them. It usually says right on the ring 'Record and destroy'
From a NOS trunk lock
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This is how the dealers I worked at handled paperwork for new cars
When the car(s) arrived at the dealer,a person (usually a sales person) was assigned to ?check in? the new cars. This was a very important process to keep records accurate. Each car came with a large brown paper envelope that held copies of window sticker,owner?s manual,as well as any optional equipment tags,which varied by car. Also included were both sets of keys. Small tag provided the key codes ,A #was ignition and B# was trunk. It was the person that checked in each car that was responsible for inspection for damage,or missing items. Those envelopes were then processed to inventory into dealers system. It was then that key codes were noted and recorded on the invoice copies. The duplicate keys stayed in envelope,the main keys got the common key tag with description and stock number and stored on keyboard in secure location.In my pictures you can see the two codes A and B and four digit code. The four digit code could be used to convert to five digit key cuts. Those envelopes were filed in filing cabinets by stock number assigned. If everyone did their job correctly it worked fine.
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Also, remember that there always had to be one set with the car in order for the carrier to deliver it.
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Still to this day, I just asked our stock in guy. The transport drops off the vehicles and a pile of keys, he has to figure out which keys go to which vehicle. Once that is done and he has checked the loose item checklist the key codes get written down on the shipping paperwork and the clerk enters it into the DMS--dealer management system-- computer. One set stays with the owners manual and one goes on the key board.
I still need to check the early single sided 5 cut keys and the 5 cut double sided later keys for how the cuts work. After the 5 cut double sided we went to 10 cut double and then 8 cut double. The cuts on those 2 are 5 deep but they never jump more than 2 --- example 5 to 4 or 3 but never to 2 or 1 . the 8 cut version has 1708 codes.
The newer side mill laser cuts are also the same.
I don`t know exactly how many years ago they started doing it but current models have the key code entered into Fords system at the plant as the cars are built so if the transport or dealer loses the keys before the vehicle gets stocked in we can get the code and cut keys.
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I was looking in my "Confidential" 1968 Lincoln Mercury Pocket Facts book and came across this -
Single cut Ford keys - 1000 combinations.
Double cut Ford keys - 1864 combinations.
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my code is just 2 digit "96". Could that be possible for early July 64?
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my code is just 2 digit "96". Could that be possible for early July 64?
I believe (if you had the locksmith codes) you would find the "FE" as a pertinent aspect of the code, if nothing else, the key blank code.
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Right, the key code is FE96 which would give a Ford dealer everything he needed to make a key for that car. The driver side door lock would have the same number stamped on it.
I believe (if you had the locksmith codes) you would find the "FE" as a pertinent aspect of the code, if nothing else, the key blank code.
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my code is just 2 digit "96". Could that be possible for early July 64?
The code will be FE96 , not sure if that is ign or trunk so you should have another for the other key . Not sure when they changed to the FA and FB coded keys.
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Single cut keys from 1952-1964.
'FE' identifies the key, which is door and ignition. So is 'FL'.
'FN' and 'FZ' are keys for glove box and trunk.
96 indicates that the cutter code is 13231.
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Single cut keys from 1952-1964.
'FE' identifies the key, which is door and ignition. So is 'FL'.
'FN' and 'FZ' are keys for glove box and trunk.
96 indicates that the cutter code is 13231.
West Coast Classic apparently has access to the code books ;)
"1" is the shallowest cut and a "5" would be the deepest cut that could be used SO, in this example, a 1,3,2,3,1 cut pattern doesn't exceed 2-cut depths (side-by-side), allowing the tumblers to flow freely across the key cuts. UNLIKELY to find a 1-cut depth next to a 4-cut depth...the key would bind up going in/out.
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Not true. Code 465. Cut code is 14141. On a single cut key.
Double cuts? key code of 0313 - The cut code for that one is 15151. Code 1550, the cut code is 51515.
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Not true. Code 465. Cut code is 14141. On a single cut key.
Double cuts? key code of 0313 - The cut code for that one is 15151. Code 1550, the cut code is 51515.
Ooof! Seems rather steep!
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Turns out that I do have code books for the early stuff and yes those will jump more than 2 . The newer 8 and 10 cut codes don`t do that.
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Hi all,
New member here, as of today.
We got a 64 1/2 Coupe from her dad's estate. We searched as best as we could but couldn't find the trunk key. We have the ignition key and I'll check it to make sure it works the doors.
My question is if anyone here could help me get the trunk key code (maybe it's a good Idea to get the ignition key code as well....)? I learned a lot reading through this thread! This car doesn't have a locking glove box. And I'm not sure if I could 'break' into the trunk somehow.
Any information that would help on this would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks
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Hi all,
New member here, as of today.
We got a 64 1/2 Coupe from her dad's estate. We searched as best as we could but couldn't find the trunk key. We have the ignition key and I'll check it to make sure it works the doors.
My question is if anyone here could help me get the trunk key code (maybe it's a good Idea to get the ignition key code as well....)? I learned a lot reading through this thread! This car doesn't have a locking glove box. And I'm not sure if I could 'break' into the trunk somehow.
Any information that would help on this would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks
First, welcome.
To answer your question, go to a locksmith. I had the same "no key for my trunk" problem years back for a newly acquired used car. A locksmith got the trunk open, lock cylinder out, new keys made and cylinder reinstalled in 30 minutes (he answered the phone a couple of times too).
Jim
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First, welcome.
To answer your question, go to a locksmith. I had the same "no key for my trunk" problem years back for a newly acquired used car. A locksmith got the trunk open, lock cylinder out, new keys made and cylinder reinstalled in 30 minutes (he answered the phone a couple of times too).
Jim
Thanks for the welcome. We are having troubles here locally having a knowledgeable locksmith. But it has got me to learn a lot about locks.....
I made good progress this evening. I had already planned on opening it myself (if I could figure out how to) and handing the cylinder to the locksmith. Well, you can get into the trunk by pulling the rear seat! Then I decided to try the keys we found again. He had changed the ignition key switch so I figured out we have at least 3 keys to operate this car. (I say it this way because I can't get the passenger door lock to work. Yet)
I will tell you all: You NEED to get a can of Houdini 4-Way Lock Lubricant. It works better on locks than anything I've ever tried. It often runs $20 or more for a 11 Oz. aerosol, but it's very worth it! Keys and Locks work better than new!