ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Processes, Products & Techniques => Topic started by: app01 on December 22, 2012, 08:20:23 PM
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1970 May Dearborn built B2.
I came across the list of Red Dyed hardware below searching the archives and wanted to find out what items below are dyed red for my B2.
Also do you use Dykem for the dying?
Thanks,
Tony
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Red dyed hardware :
Strut rod outer nuts
Steering box mounting
idler arm mounting
Steering coupling bolts
Strut rod to control arm nuts
Lower a arm eccentric nuts
Upper a arm attaching nuts
PS cylinder frame bracket hardware
Pumpkin nuts
U bolts nuts
Seat belt hardware
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I think rear strut rod nuts as well also
pinion arm nut/washer
seat track to seat bolts
seat attaching nuts
rear seat mounting screws (vert/coupe)
Spindle bolts/washers
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Spindle bolts/washers
??? (guess I'm slow one today ;)
On 69's (may apply to 70's) found the fastback rear seat hinge bolts and the rear seat latch screws (to the body on fold downs) were also dyed
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Thanks Tim and Jeff.
Have a great Christmas.
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E brake cable threaded end when it goes though the body support tab by the mufflers.
Mark
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Forgot the flex rear brake line to floor bracket (the flat U shaped push in retainer) Found it red dyed on a number of Dearborn and San Jose 69s
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I'm not an expert on finishes or anything, but the seat track to seat bolts seem to be Red Anodized not red dyed. They have a bright metal look to the red instead of the dyed red like steering box bolts and such. Also the full bolt is colored, not just the head which seems typical to me on the suspension bolt heads. Please discuss.
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I'm not an expert on finishes or anything, but the seat track to seat bolts seem to be Red Anodized not red dyed. They have a bright metal look to the red instead of the dyed red like steering box bolts and such.
Not sure what seat belt bolts your referring to on a 70. The nuts are dyed - believe those are part of the group of parts that were tested by the lab
As far as correct terms can steel be anodized?? Though the process was only compatible with certain metals
Also the full bolt is colored, not just the head which seems typical to me on the suspension bolt heads. Please discuss.
Suspension bolts (like the ones for the steering box) were in my experience completely dyed from one end to the other. Normally the only part still slowing the coloration is that section protected in the frame
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Both are red dyed. When a clear zinc fastener like seat nut is red dyed it will take on a completely different appearance that a phosphated one like a steering box bolt
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I'm referring to the 6 point bolt that mounts the seat tracks to the seat frame. They have a brighter red finish then the darker red color of the seat track to floor nuts. Is that just because of the initial plating before dye?
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I'm referring to the 6 point bolt that mounts the seat tracks to the seat frame. They have a brighter red finish then the darker red color of the seat track to floor nuts. Is that just because of the initial plating before dye?
The under laying surface, plating and condition will change the look of the final produce. The nuts look to have something like phosphate on them first thing the seat track bolts look like they might be zinc first - would have to test them to be sure. Not easy to get access to those machines often :(
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Some of the seat belt bolts are zinc dichromate under the red same with the rear end nuts. As noted It gives different appearance compared to the zinc phosphate. The dye will come off with certain solvents leaving the underlying finish.
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The under laying surface, plating and condition will change the look of the final produce. The nuts look to have something like phosphate on them first thing the seat track bolts look like they might be zinc first - would have to test them to be sure. Not easy to get access to those machines often :(
Ive done the "quick and easy" zinc test. If you put a zinc plated (or cad) piece in muratic acid it will bubble as the plating is dissolved
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Is Tony correct that Dykem is used for the dying?
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Is Tony correct that Dykem is used for the dying?
Need to look at the bottle of stuff I've used (goes a long way) for ten years. Is a Dykem product. Believe its a machinist dye for layout - at least that's what I use for the blue dyed stuff ;)
As a general note to others - what is dyed with the red dye varies so DON"T expect what is dyed on one car to be the same as yours -so remember to compare the same years and assembly plants when you do your homework.
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The red finish on seat track hardware and rear axle U Bolt nuts etc. is applied to zinc same as dichromate(Gold), just different color. Green was used on some 71 Control arm nuts etc. Not similar to the red (Dykem type product) used on phoshated hardware. Hard to get platers to do the red and green as Dichromate has become industry preference and is most durable to salt spray according to Mike Wagner At Electroplating. They do Mercury Marine Cad & Zinc.
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That does explain a lot. I have some of the seat track bolts that are just gold with a very slight reddish tint probably the dye worn off. The dye must have a transparency to the coloring which explains the different coloring on the differently plated parts. You guys are a wealth of knowledge. I love this site!! Andrew
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May 15, 1970, Dearborn B2
Earlier on it was mentioned that the strut rod Strut rod OUTER nuts were red, however, looking at articles and some archives, I have found conflicting information, some showing them natural, others even showing the inside nut red.
Can someone please confirm the finish on these 2 nuts?
Thanks again
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Typical production would be Zinc plate plus red chromate on front nut and zinc phosphate with red (Dykem)on rear nut.
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Thanks again.
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I know I'm resurrecting an older thread, but this relates:
Dykem TRANSPARENT Staining Color #81496 has been mentioned here as a good red dye to use. Seems its no longer made. Dykem's website doesn't show it available and the online suppliers showing it do not in fact have it in stock.
I've been able to find Dykem staining color #81491, which is red, but is OPAQUE.
QUESTIONS:
- Has anyone here used this 81491? Does it look OK?
- Has anyone used an alternative they are happy with?
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I know I'm resurrecting an older thread, but this relates:
Dykem TRANSPARENT Staining Color #81496 has been mentioned here as a good red dye to use. Seems its no longer made. Dykem's website doesn't show it available and the online suppliers showing it do not in fact have it in stock.
I've been able to find Dykem staining color #81491, which is red, but is OPAQUE.
So it's somewhat a milky clear rather than a just a clear dye? Would be interested in the difference if any from the older stuff. Maybe there is another brand or maker we can find
The bottle I have had for a fairly long time is labeled Transparent - guessing that is where the change is
Don't have the bottle here so cant check the inventory number but apparently its the old stuff. One of the pet peeves and only thing that seems consistent in the hobby is that once you find something that works buy a good supply since the next time you go to buy it it will be changed, reformulated or no longer legal in you state or region :(
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Yeah, more and more nowadays with all the corporate consolidation and globalized sourcing. In some ways we have more options than ever, but others we have less and less.
I'd really hoped that since coloring these safety nuts and bolts is fairly common restoration practice now, that others have found something else that works good. I'd used translucent red paint in the past, but it tends to flake off easily when the hardware is installed, esp. when used on smooth zinc plating. Have also used a red permanent marker, which doesn't flake but doesn't color the zinc well either. Zinc phosphate colors easily, clear zinc or dichromate - not really. Using opaque red dye like the only available Dykem #81491 just seems like it wouldn't look right.
Thought this would be a slam-dunk once I saw your photo of the transparent Dykem #81496. :(
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Just to be clear the red marking wasnt always dye. A general rule is dye on the zinc plated parts and red paint on the phosphate parts
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Dykem dyes can be bought on eBay.
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The color (Red etc.) on Zinc or Cadmium plated parts is Chromate not dye. Dykem's opaque red is very similar to Ford's S100 finish on phosphate items.
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The color (Red etc.) on Zinc or Cadmium plated parts is Chromate not dye. .....
Bob what is the difference between a dye and the chromate process? When I purchase Dichromate it sure looks like a dye and appears to be applied in pretty much the same fashion.
Just asking :)
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Jeff,
Chromates are sealers that when applied to inorganic plating like Zinc together creates a good corrosion resistant finish. Dye like Dykem staining dye are not chromates. Better industrial chromates contain lead and are not for sale without proper EPA etc. certification. The Dykem dye is more identification than protection. S100 finish on Zinc Phosphate is not always red, however the opaque red Dykem duplicates the factory look in my opinion very well.
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Dykem's opaque red is very similar to Ford's S100 finish on phosphate items.
To clear up a possible misconception, -S100 is a special finish documented on the drawing for that part. It is not exclusively a red dye as many 64-66 hardware item use -S100 prior to the red being used. All told, there are over 500 hardware items in my 64-73 Mustang hardware data base with -S100 finishes, plus an additional 100 that use -S101, -S102, -S103 and -S104. Without the appropriate drawings, there's no way to tell except from personal experience.
Jim
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Jeff,
Chromates are sealers that when applied to inorganic plating like Zinc together creates a good corrosion resistant finish. Dye like Dykem staining dye are not chromates. Better industrial chromates contain lead and are not for sale without proper EPA etc. certification. The Dykem dye is more identification than protection. S100 finish on Zinc Phosphate is not always red, however the opaque red Dykem duplicates the factory look in my opinion very well.
Thanks for the simple explanation - can get real technical real quick. Guess the focus for us is getting the right look when its done ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromate_and_dichromate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromate_and_dichromate)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromate_conversion_coating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromate_conversion_coating)
Looks like even the makers of the products sometimes even used the terms interchangeably
http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/Red-Chromate-Dye-p481.html (http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/Red-Chromate-Dye-p481.html)
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To clear up a possible misconception, -S100 is a special finish documented on the drawing for that part. It is not exclusively a red dye as many 64-66 hardware item use -S100 prior to the red being used. All told, there are over 500 hardware items in my 64-73 Mustang hardware data base with -S100 finishes, plus an additional 100 that use -S101, -S102, -S103 and -S104. Without the appropriate drawings, there's no way to tell except from personal experience.
Jim
Jim, The topic is red dyed hardware, the year 69-70, I stated in a previous post prior to yours " S100 on zinc phosphate is not always red ", did you not read that before you posted? This topic is not 64-66 related.
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OK, so its good to know that the still-available Dykem opaque red dye is a good match for S100 red zinc phosphate, but what's the best available way to match red dichromate without re-plating? I've got ball joint stud nuts with good zinc and zinc dichromate (yellow) plating that I'd like to look like red dichromate.
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OK, so its good to know that the still-available Dykem opaque red dye is a good match for S100 red zinc phosphate, but what's the best available way to match red dichromate without re-plating?
IF your looking to fake red over phosphate with out plating guess you need to strip to bare steel, gun blue then dye
I've got ball joint stud nuts with good zinc and zinc dichromate (yellow) plating that I'd like to look like red dichromate.
Over zinc then strip the yellow die and add the dye over the base zinc
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IF your looking to fake red over phosphate with out plating guess you need to strip to bare steel, gun blue then dye
Huh?
I asked what the best way was to fake red zinc dichromate, NOT red colored zinc phosphate.
Look, all I want to do is to color the nuts that hold the ball joints to the spindles. These nuts are supposed to have been originally red zinc dichromate. Mine are already plated in a mix of clear zinc and yellow zinc dichromate (some of each). I thought the transparent red dye would work great to color these, but it's not available.
I think I'll just use a red permanent marker. Just figured others might have a better alternative.
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Did you look on ebay for Dykem red dye? I bought some there a few months back.
Believe you will want to go over the shiny silver. If you have some with gold, it can be removed to expose the clear zinc base.
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Ok lets try this again - sometimes the message gets lost or confused using just the written word.
I see two possible choices - you can take a small (like a baby food one) glass jar, add a small amount of rubbing alcohol (you can always add more) take apart one or two red sharpie pens and soak the woven wick in the jar for a few hours. This should produce a brushable red dye for you to use.
If you don't want to try that since your only doing four nuts you can send them to me (prepped the way you want them to be dyed) and I'll brush some red dye on all the surfaces, let them dry and send them back to you
Helpful?
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Did you look on ebay for Dykem red dye? I bought some there a few months back.
Believe you will want to go over the shiny silver. If you have some with gold, it can be removed to expose the clear zinc base.
For reference:
Dykem 81496 is red and TRANSPARENT - this is the stuff that Jeff has been using and has apparently been discontinued by Dykem. This should have been a good coating for clear zinc or zinc dichromate to make it look like zinc red dichromate.
Dykem 81491 is red and OPAQUE - this is the stuff Perkins Restoration said that was a good match for zinc phosphate S100.
On Ebay:
A search for "Dykem 81496" turns up a single result: GALLON JUGS of OPAQUE staining colors for $279.
A search for "Dykem 81491" turns up a bottle and a jug of the OPAQUE red stuff. Don't need that, just checking anyway.
A search for "Dykem transparent red" or "Dykem red" turns up red LAYOUT FLUID (not the same stuff) and other things, but no 81496 or other TRANSPARENT red stains.
A search for "transparent staining color" returns irrelevant results.
You can't get the Dykem transparent red staining color any more.
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Ok lets try this again - sometimes the message gets lost or confused using just the written word.
I see two possible choices - you can take a small (like a baby food one) glass jar, add a small amount of rubbing alcohol (you can always add more) take apart one or two red sharpie pens and soak the woven wick in the jar for a few hours. This should produce a brushable red dye for you to use.
If you don't want to try that since your only doing four nuts you can send them to me (prepped the way you want them to be dyed) and I'll brush some red dye on all the surfaces, let them dry and send them back to you
Helpful?
Jeff, I appreciate your suggestion with the sharpies and alcohol, and especially your offer to dye the nuts for me. I really didn't mean to lay it on you to provide a solution, just wanted everyone reading to be real clear what I was looking for. I really figured others would have tried various things and would share a good alternative to the Dykem transparent red dye.
I'm going to try the Sharpie route, as its easy enough, and if its not satisfactory, will take you up on your offer ... unless of course someone comes through with another solid product suggestion. :)
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There is a red transparent paint available at many hobby shops. I got a bottle of yellow transparent paint many years back to try to replicate gold zinc. It worked fair.
Jim
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There is a red transparent paint available at many hobby shops. I got a bottle of yellow transparent paint many years back to try to replicate gold zinc. It worked fair.
Jim
This sounds like the transparent red paint that eastwood sells in there zinc dichromate faux look kit a silver,.green ,red ,and gold transparent paint .
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This sounds like the transparent red paint that eastwood sells in there zinc dichromate faux look kit a silver,.green ,red ,and gold transparent paint .
Agree sounds very similar
The whole issue concerning the provider is a bit confusing as is Dykem's labeling. Some reds are listed on bottle as staining color while others are layout fluid
The part number for the stuff I have (8 oz older version) is now used for the gallon size.
Then there is another 1 gallon size listed as DYKEM Staining Color - MODEL : 81791 Color: Red, by resalers
Example http://www.ebay.com/itm/DYKEM-Staining-Color-MODEL-81791-Color-Red-Container-Size-1-Gallon-/321181072620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac7e23cec (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DYKEM-Staining-Color-MODEL-81791-Color-Red-Container-Size-1-Gallon-/321181072620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ac7e23cec)
No company website that I could find that explains what they mean by transparent, stain, layup and opaque
Thing I'll get some of the new stuff and see how it compares and looks once applied
Wonder what Max's (AMK) supplier is using to stain his hardware or what he is using if he's doing that in house
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Has anyone tried the layout fluid?
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Has anyone tried the layout fluid?
Not for red - but I've used a spray blue layout for the galvanized steel metal stencils used on 69 Shelby's Worked fine for that Like any dye it will not hold up to allot of handling, wrenches or rubbing
Not sure how transparent it is guess allot depends on how thick you apply it also
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I have found some red layout dye (ink) and have done some test samples.I used a transparent and opaque ink on phosphate, zinc plated and yellow chromate bolts. For the people that have done this before or have seen the original bolts & nuts with the red markings I am just looking for a bit of feedback on my samples.This is mostly to do with a 1970 mustang.
Before
(https://i.postimg.cc/85rXDMBk/P1070213.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9hJJByv)
After
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq7VB2DF/P1070216.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LqzVPkNz)
Top line transparent ink.
Bottom line opaque ink.
1 is a phosphate bolts
2 zinc plated
3 zinc yellow chromate
zinc & phosphate bolt
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjSLT3RK/P1070248.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v4CQLz1S)
phosphate bolt
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcCXhKHq/P1070273.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wt71LgKh)
zinc bolt
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGbC9KV7/P1070290.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SYk3fX7P)
phosphate bolt
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Nmw1PFj/P1070264.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xNjYTp7q)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwkDnCsG/P1070272.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wh5ptZMt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6fq3096/P1070295.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w7qT62RS)
With the opaque ink the bolt finish does not matter the look is the same.
The transparent looks better on the chromate after 3 or 4 coats but on the zinc its a bit pink and on the phosphate it doesn't stand out as much.
I have read on a post that phosphate bolts & nuts would be dyed with opaque ink and zinc plated would use transparent ink is this true?
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I have found some red layout dye (ink) and have done some test samples.I used a transparent and opaque ink on phosphate, zinc plated and yellow chromate bolts. For the people that have done this before or have seen the original bolts & nuts with the red markings I am just looking for a bit of feedback on my samples.This is mostly to do with a 1970 mustang.
Before
(https://i.postimg.cc/85rXDMBk/P1070213.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9hJJByv)
After
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq7VB2DF/P1070216.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LqzVPkNz)
Top line transparent ink.
Bottom line opaque ink.
1 is a phosphate bolts
2 zinc plated
3 zinc yellow chromate
zinc & phosphate bolt
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjSLT3RK/P1070248.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v4CQLz1S)
phosphate bolt
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcCXhKHq/P1070273.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wt71LgKh)
zinc bolt
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGbC9KV7/P1070290.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SYk3fX7P)
phosphate bolt
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Nmw1PFj/P1070264.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xNjYTp7q)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwkDnCsG/P1070272.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wh5ptZMt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6fq3096/P1070295.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w7qT62RS)
With the opaque ink the bolt finish does not matter the look is the same.
The transparent looks better on the chromate after 3 or 4 coats but on the zinc its a bit pink and on the phosphate it doesn't stand out as much.
I have read on a post that phosphate bolts & nuts would be dyed with opaque ink and zinc plated would use transparent ink is this true?
I have found that the transparent dye to work best on the phosphate as well as the zinc silver and gold. The opaque paint doesn't give the right look for the bolts IMO.
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I have read on a post that phosphate bolts & nuts would be dyed with opaque ink and zinc plated would use transparent ink is this true?
Don't know that I agree with that suggestion or that all of the hardware suppliers even did the exact thing (specific dye product) as other suppliers. It may be governed more by the specific part and the supplier.
For example the brake line clips for some years appear to have an opaque finish while other years they don't always seem to look as "pasty". You can make out the uneven coating (dye job) along the top of the picture where there are runs and build-up in the lower surfaces and bends of the metal where it collected during drying
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/11/6-071218174616.jpeg)
I've always used the red layout dye like the Dykem product shown below, but as mentioned in an older thread they have reformulated some of their products to an opaque base so you might need to hunt a bit or experiment. Red layout dye might be a different formula
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/11/6-071218181318.jpeg)
Don't know that it needs to "stand out" as many original examples don't especially over phosphate
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I use the Dykem dye that Jeff showed. Usually use a foam applicator and try to keep the same consistency on the surface.
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I have found that the transparent dye to work best on the phosphate as well as the zinc silver and gold. The opaque paint doesn't give the right look for the bolts IMO.
Bob have you got any sample photo's of the work you have done with transparent dye on phosphate and gold to see what I should be aiming for?
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I've always used the red layout dye like the Dykem product shown below, but as mentioned in an older thread they have reformulated some of their products to an opaque base so you might need to hunt a bit or experiment. Red layout dye might be a different formula
I did try to get the Dykem product but didn't find it here and being a chemical companies won't ship it overseas.
This is what I got.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QV6p8Pd/P1070215.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kB1YMypG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1Xwd0wf7/P1070214.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2LjTrqdn)
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Bob have you got any sample photo's of the work you have done with transparent dye on phosphate and gold to see what I should be aiming for?
No photos saved. I use the Dykem product in both bottle or spray form like most everyone else. It has been the go to product that many of us have used for decades now.
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I did try to get the Dykem product but didn't find it here and being a chemical companies won't ship it overseas.
This is what I got.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QV6p8Pd/P1070215.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kB1YMypG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1Xwd0wf7/P1070214.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2LjTrqdn)
It makes sense to me now because I was wondering why you were getting a slightly different look on bolts compared to what mine look like but that is because you are using a different product. You might try to order some different examples of items from AMK to use as a guide . AMK products in this regard will give a typical idea of look ,shade etc.to try and copy with products that you can source locally . Holding it in your hand has advantages over a computer screen which may or may not give you a accurate match to tint and shade.
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Bob have you got any sample photo's of the work you have done with transparent dye on phosphate and gold to see what I should be aiming for?
Not Bob but I've got pictures. As Bob stated how useful they may be (considering different monitor settings and so on) is debatable
From a 69 Dearborn car thread
Over zinc dichromate
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-130717223309-7368152.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-130717223307-73672147.jpeg)
Can't recall if these were zinc or zinc dichromate
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/7/6-130717223304-73652293.jpeg)
From another project - over phosphate. Appears fresh so that is why some of the surfaces appear a bit shinny. They will dull quickly with exposure to the air and handling
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/11/6-071218212136.jpeg)
Likely have other examples - just what was handy
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(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/11/6-071218212136.jpeg)
Thanks Jeff.
The last sample looks close to this
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcCXhKHq/P1070273.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wt71LgKh)
Maybe your phosphate is a bit lighter so it shows up better.
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You might try to order some different examples of items from AMK to use as a guide . AMK products in this regard will give a typical idea of look ,shade etc.to try and copy with products that you can source locally . Holding it in your hand has advantages over a computer screen which may or may not give you a accurate match to tint and shade.
I have used some AMK products and the only red dye items that I have used was nuts and no bolts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzbF62wm/P1070331.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QKtr9nXn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgKxQm6S/P1070336.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Js3d858y)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzsVDfKn/P1070326.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zyYP4PsZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCP7drjY/P1070328.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75Sj6y3Z)
Some don't get much of a coat.
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I did a bit of playing around with the inks today to see what I can come up with.
First by mixing the transparent ink with opaque ink in different quantity but really just made it glossy and a little transparent.
Phosphate
(https://i.postimg.cc/NF8TxC42/P1070370.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2L6VkwgC)
Zinc & chromate
(https://i.postimg.cc/mg7YZDMy/P1070342.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FYsdDhTY)
Next I thinned the opaque ink out and that made it a cloudy transparent ink.
Zinc & chromate
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JHFDmBD/P1070355.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HjByqJFp)
Phosphate
(https://i.postimg.cc/ry5Sczky/P1070360.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDXVvJGL)
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1T8xgqP/P1070367.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mtp7HcSd)
This look like the same as the bolts I took out of the steering box when it was pulled apart.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nL5vVDrr/P1070372.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cKRKX6QG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Rv2kx0B/P1070374.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5YfXG13Y)
(https://i.postimg.cc/43LmXk81/P1070380.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JyX1QgCy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PZYNZRb/P1070381.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/svZmJ90B)
Chromate
(https://i.postimg.cc/Mp4rjXrM/P1070385.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K1P56cbx)
AMK dyeing nut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdVytcSZ/P1070386.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9D5pgRvL)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZmRXs8f/IMG-2087.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SJHtNHMx)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvZRSkCv/IMG-2091.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Ff4W0cGt)
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Great post. I was asking about the S100 finish on some fasteners on another thread I started. I just want to confirm if S100 is the red dye. Just curious if someone has created a list of all of the fasteners that would get the red dye. It would be great if there is a list as I would love to assemble all of the fasteners and do them all at the same time. I am assuming that the dye was added to the fasteners regardless of what finish they already had. Was there a reason why they dyed the fasteners? I did not notice any red fasteners on my car and I did notice that the master cylinder nuts in the AMK kit appeared to be painted red, but I was not sure why.
Have you tried just dropping the fasteners into a small jar of dye for a while to see how they turn out. Are they supposed to have a painted look of more of a red zinc tinge to them.
Thanks
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I was asking about the S100 finish on some fasteners -
In general - yes. In practice - no. Ford, and most other commercial companies of that era, were known for being "consistently inconsistent".
Jim
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In general - yes. In practice - no. Ford, and most other commercial companies of that era, were known for being "consistently inconsistent".
Jim
Thanks Jim. So how do I find out which fasteners on my car should get the red dye treatment
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Thanks Jim. So how do I find out which fasteners on my car should get the red dye treatment
The best way is from the pictures Jeff took and threads on the subject. Bob and Charles have made input on the subject a lot as well. The red dye color problem is compounded by Ford not always specifying it's use by the finish code but including the red dye requirement on the actual part drawing which we do not have access to.
Jim
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The best way is from the pictures Jeff took and threads on the subject. Bob and Charles have made input on the subject a lot as well. The red dye color problem is compounded by Ford not always specifying it's use by the finish code but including the red dye requirement on the actual part drawing which we do not have access to.
Jim
So how do we know which fasteners should have red dye on them? for example in the AMK bolt kits I have I have only seen 2 nuts with red dye for the master cylinder. Any idea how many fasteners on the car could be eligible to receive red dye. Unfortunately I could find no trace of any red dye on any of my original fasteners, but I would like to find out which ones should have the dye. While I am at it I might as well ask if any other parts on the car may have received any red dye or other coloured dye for that matter. On some other non Mustang cars I have built I have seen some red & green dye present on brake line ends for example
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So how do we know which fasteners should have red dye on them? for example in the AMK bolt kits I have I have only seen 2 nuts with red dye for the master cylinder. Any idea how many fasteners on the car could be eligible to receive red dye. Unfortunately I could find no trace of any red dye on any of my original fasteners, but I would like to find out which ones should have the dye. While I am at it I might as well ask if any other parts on the car may have received any red dye or other coloured dye for that matter. On some other non Mustang cars I have built I have seen some red & green dye present on brake line ends for example
Typically the brake line suppliers will use the red dye on fittings for 68 systems.
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So how do we know which fasteners should have red dye on them?
The best way is from the pictures Jeff took and threads on the subject.
Again, you don't because you do not have access to complete documentation. The determination is by picture or by member input.
Typically the brake line suppliers will use the red dye on fittings for 68 systems.
Ask about specific hardware use.
Jim
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I think the issue with the samples I've seen so far is attempting to replicate the results of Dykem 81496 Red Transparent Dye with Dykem Red Layout Fluid 80496.
The opaque 80496 will always look darker than the transparent 81496.
From searches on the web, it appears that 81496 is no longer offered.
Maybe it's time to look for another red tansparent dye...
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So how do I find out which fasteners on my car should get the red dye treatment
I have the same problem.
The assembly manuals list where the S100 hardware is and goes but just not knowing what was common to be dyed and what was not so common to have dye on them.
I think the problem is we are looking at cars that are over 48 years old and some are well weathered so hardware is not in a clean condition. Unless some of the older guys :P that have been working on them for over 40 years and kept a record of what they have seen and what they are willing to share with us all.
So we must keep asking the questions.
Here is some photos of my original hardware that you can just make out the red dye.
Steering box bolts
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBGqggbZ/P1040543.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LqGddh3N)
Idler arm bolts
(https://i.postimg.cc/0j6xt10V/P1040635.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PvkBxccD)
Power steering ram bracket bolts
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRD4Xvyt/P1040556.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R6tkv9P9)
Rag joint bolt
(https://i.postimg.cc/J098vYTM/P1040676.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kRFLts3p)
If anyone has photos of original red dyed hardware post them up.
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I have the same problem.
The assembly manuals list where the S100 hardware is and goes but just not knowing what was common to be dyed and what was not so common to have dye on them.
Of course this would differ (which cars an parts were or were not dyed) depending on year, possibly even month and car/options
If anyone has photos of original red dyed hardware post them up.
I hesitate doing so since someone watching will likely see a certain nut or bolt and apply it to their car rather than checking to see if the application is correct for their specific year and car. Think it would work better if we focused in the specific year sections with clear identifiers as to when and where each was used. Just my thoughts
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As I noticed in another thread on this topic the layout red and Dykem currently available is not transparent and looks more like paint. The transparent Dykem is apparently no longer made.
After looking around I noticed that the art community has a handle on transparent inks, so I bought some alcohol transparent ink and tried it on a cad fastener.
Here is the result.
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As I noticed in another thread on this topic the layout red and Dykem currently available is not transparent and looks more like paint. The transparent Dykem is apparently no longer made.
After looking around I noticed that the art community has a handle on transparent inks, so I bought some alcohol transparent ink and tried it on a cad fastener.
Looks like it might be in the neighborhood. Guess this is going to need an protective top coat?
Wonder if it would be better to heat the metal first (slightly) to see if the ink sticks or dyes better. Worth a try.
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I know this is an old thread, but I was just reading it and thought I would post a recent thread I started on the same subject in case anyone has found and new processes or can shed ore light on the subject.
https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=28516.new#new (https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=28516.new#new)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/18/4775-240623165813-187672040.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/18/4775-240623164504-18756847.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/18/4775-240623164627-18762521.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/18/4775-240623164408-187502137.jpeg)
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/18/4775-240623164501-187551410.jpeg)
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Some of this discussion caught my attention as the USAF required a similar paint dab, yellow per their specifications, indicating that the torque was inspected on bearings on the azimuth and elevation sections of the 60 foot dish antennas we designed and built under contract (Ford Aerospace and Communications).
In the "1968 Mustang Chassis Assembly Manual" (AM0025) on pages 66 thru 68, are several uses of -S100 finish on hardware used on steering gear with torque specifications also spelled out. Unfortunately, the actual meaning of the "-S100" is not stated, but I believe that in this case, that it indicates the red dye requirement. There are notes referencing the colors used to identify ends of tie rod assemblies, directions of bolt installation for engine options, and adjustment requirements on these pages. If you have a 1968 Mustang, you should get a copy of this manual. Pictures do not specify torque.
The are a lot of smudged hardware part numbers on these manual's pages. In my research for the Mustang Hardware Spreadsheet (See this forums library), I have determined most of the correct part numbers. Send a PM if interested.
(Note: The drawings also state "Mustang and Cougar".)
Jim
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Some of this discussion caught my attention as the USAF required a similar paint dab, yellow per their specifications, indicating that the torque was inspected on bearings on the azimuth and elevation sections of the 60 foot dish antennas we designed and built under contract (Ford Aerospace and Communications).
In the "1968 Mustang Chassis Assembly Manual" (AM0025) on pages 66 thru 68, are several uses of -S100 finish on hardware used on steering gear with torque specifications also spelled out. Unfortunately, the actual meaning of the "-S100" is not stated, but I believe that in this case, that it indicates the red dye requirement. There are notes referencing the colors used to identify ends of tie rod assemblies, directions of bolt installation for engine options, and adjustment requirements on these pages. If you have a 1968 Mustang, you should get a copy of this manual. Pictures do not specify torque.
The are a lot of smudged hardware part numbers on these manual's pages. In my research for the Mustang Hardware Spreadsheet (See this forums library), I have determined most of the correct part numbers. Send a PM if interested.
(Note: The drawings also state "Mustang and Cougar".)
Jim
Thanks Jim great information
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Per Bossbill?s suggestion, I tried some Pinata Sante Fe red ink. Here?s a photo of how it compares in color to red nut from an NOS strut kit. Appears pretty close. The nut on the right is an original that was bead blasted then colored with the Pinata ink. Nuts on the left are from the strut kit. Fwiw
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Per Bossbill?s suggestion, I tried some Pinata Sante Fe red ink. Here?s a photo of how it compares in color to red nut from an NOS strut kit. Appears pretty close. The nut on the right is an original that was bead blasted then colored with the Pinata ink. Nuts on the left are from the strut kit. Fwiw
I don't see any reason to reinvent the wheel. Of course it is always good to have a alternative if needed.The Dykem layout dye that I got 1 month ago is transparent and looks the same as always. Besides being the product that AMK used and most likely still uses I am not for sure if the ink would hold up as good as the layout dye. Maybe it does but no good reason for me to change IMO. Plus it is easily accessible if I run out from Amazon or my local welding supply.
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I don't see any reason to reinvent the wheel. Of course it is always good to have a alternative if needed.The Dykem layout dye that I got 1 month ago is transparent and looks the same as always. Besides being the product that AMK used and most likely still uses I am not for sure if the ink would hold up as good as the layout dye. Maybe it does but no good reason for me to change IMO. Plus it is easily accessible if I run out from Amazon or my local welding supply.
Agreed Bob. I was messing with dye and paint and other products, but ordered the Dykems dye and there is no going back now. It's cheap and far more durable from what I can tell as it is designed to be used on metal. The other methods are good in a pinch, but for the cost my money is on the machinist dye. However it does not work very well on phosphate, but appears that AMK uses a thicker non translucent product on the phosphate fasteners. The master cylinder, steering box bolts, idler arm nuts and bolts as well as the pitman arm nut for example. They appear to be painted. Not sure what they use but it does appear to be non translucent. When I tried the machinist dye on phosphated parts it was very hard to see the dye. I used the Dykems dye on the rear leaf spin/ axel nuts, as well as third member nuts