ConcoursMustang Forums
General Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: priceless on December 01, 2013, 08:34:19 PM
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What is a good definition of a "Survivor" car. I'm having a friendly dispute among a few of us guys in our Mustang club.
What's your definition?
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I'd say a car that looks less than 5 years old, condition-wise and retains a high-degree of original parts and finishes.
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One of those topics that will never come to a conclusion. ;) I asked the same question on another forum awhile back and there are many viewpoints, all of which could be valid.
Cars I've seen called survivors are cars stored in a climate controlled environment, with low-to-no miles, as well as a rusted hulk pulled from the bottom of a lake.
Both represent the ends of the 'survivor' spectrum IMHO.
Good luck settling the 'dispute'. ;D
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I think a Mustang dragged from the watery depths and then restored is closer to a "survivor" than a garage queen.
Jim
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My definition would be same as a nice unrestored original car. Any Mustang still around today that is mostly together could fall into someones else's definition just not mine ;)
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That's what I am thinking. unrestored original retaining most, if not all, the original equipment, even the paint, minus hoses, belts, tires, battery, etc....the preventive maintenance stuff.
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I think any car that is mostly original, unrestored, unmodified and still in good enough shapento just leave alone is a survivor car.
It can show age, I'm ok with that
Bob
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I think any car that is mostly original, unrestored, unmodified and still in good enough shapento just leave alone is a survivor car.
It can show age, I'm ok with that
Bob
This part of your definition is a loaded question because apparently many find it hard to under stand what the definition of mostly original ,unrestored, unmodified even means. I was excited for the 2013 SAAC convention because there were 4 unrestored 67 Shelby's I had to judge. The criteria is very basic and similar to your expectations . It ended up one was legitimate ,one was very marginally so with many replacemate parts ,partial repaint etc. The other two cars were all highly messed with cars with total repaints engines pulled and detailed , underside sprayed black etc. Things that you would think any half way intelligent car person would understand and see. the owners were clueless. This happens frequently at the differnt Mustang/Shelby venues no matter how visible and available you make the criteria. So no matter what criteria you set ,it seems that someone will always have their own different interpretation of the definition it seems.
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That's what I am thinking. unrestored original retaining most, if not all, the original equipment, even the paint, minus hoses, belts, tires, battery, etc....the preventive maintenance stuff.
Personally, I agree with the above on what I consider a survivor car.
IMO, you have to ask "what did it survive?" to earn the name "survivor"? A car that has always been treated like a collectible and stored away with little or no use can hardly be said to have even lived the life of a car, let alone "survived" it.
I see a "survivor car" as a car that has been used like a car, but cared for as a cherished object. It shows signs of use without being "used up".
It has been maintained properly, and repaired with correct OEM parts when possible (darn obsolete parts!). It may have been spot painted if it was in a minor fender bender, but has not had a complete repaint. It isn't rusted, because it has been cleaned and maintained, and stored properly when possible. It does not require restoration.
*huh... first post, but long time lurker. I thought I would have posted before now, LOL!
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Welcome Mike. Good observations. And it makes sense.
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Does this mean that my 71' Boss 351 with 32000 original miles, original interior (except the radio and speakers), original drive train (minus original distributor, carb and ignition), 1 paint job, and was bought from original owner.... in all of your opinions could be a survivor? I have been around the block on this issue 100 + times and even the guy I bought the car from (he is mostly a Shelby restorer, and some bosses plus countless others) says it is a survivor. When I talk to a lot of guys, I most disappointingly get the feeling that I was placed in the mislead category. I guess my vision of "SURVIVIOR" is a car that may have been through a few owners but has never been touched; mechanically, body, suspension, interior, no matter how many miles. Is that asking for too much?
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Does this mean that my 71' Boss 351 with 32000 original miles, original interior (except the radio and speakers), original drive train (minus original distributor, carb and ignition), 1 paint job,...................
I don't use the term - so it makes the answer easy ;)
With your description to me it's a "tweener" - see one of the other threads :) Just me
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Does this mean that my 71' Boss 351 with 32000 original miles, original interior (except the radio and speakers), original drive train (minus original distributor, carb and ignition), 1 paint job, and was bought from original owner.... in all of your opinions could be a survivor? I have been around the block on this issue 100 + times and even the guy I bought the car from (he is mostly a Shelby restorer, and some bosses plus countless others) says it is a survivor. When I talk to a lot of guys, I most disappointingly get the feeling that I was placed in the mislead category. I guess my vision of "SURVIVIOR" is a car that may have been through a few owners but has never been touched; mechanically, body, suspension, interior, no matter how many miles. Is that asking for too much?
By YOUR own definition it does not qualify as a survivor based on the discription you gave so I am not sure how you were mislead? I am with Jeff it sounds like a Tweener (inbetween).
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Clearly the term is subjective. Should there be the occassion where one of these cars, a "tweener" not quite a "survivor" by someones definition arrives at an MCA show, what class do the fall into?
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Clearly the term is subjective. Should there be the occassion where one of these cars, a "tweener" not quite a "survivor" by someones definition arrives at an MCA show, what class do the fall into?
Its always up to the owner what class a car is entered in - at least at MCA and SAAC based on my experience. The woner looks at the opinions and chooses either on what award they which to try for, what kind of feedback they looking for or one where they have the greatest possibility (in their opinion) of the highest award.
MCA offers allot of classes but they can only carve out a limited number of possibilities just like any other organization. Currently there is no class just for the cars that aren't unrestored, are not restored and or are not daily drivers. OF course winning a $20 trophy is not everyone's goal and those owners just want to display their car and enjoy the day. But there is an effort to make a class for the "tweeners" - you'll find a discussion about that in the MCA Judging area of this site
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=7286.0 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=7286.0)
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Bob,
The idea of my being mislead was based on this pretense; I was told any parts that came off the car were coming with the car. The message was relayed "all original parts were with the car," exactly! When I got the car, the so claimed original parts were mostly there. As frequently happens (especially the BOSS 1s) the Autolite distributor was gone, the Autolite 4300d carb was gone (swapped for a Holly), the ignition was changed to an MSD, and headers were installed. We all know why these mods were made. The statement "SURVIVOR" was used frequently from the seller. I anticipate because it was for sale from original owner, low miles, all original sheet metal, original drive train, original space saver spare (correct paint marks still visible on wheel), original red air can black cap and all, original interior (immaculate for age), rev limiter still intact, carbon canister intact, on and on and on.
Yes I am disappointed to say the least, however the car is damn nice and is very presentable at a local car show. I believe in honesty and integrity! I was MISLEAD and lesson learned. I consider myself kind of a purist freak (not for all cars) and would like to believe in the SURVIVIOR definition with broader shoulders. However I understand why it does not.
The story has more leads and twists, to much for here but in essence I was MISLEAD to believe survivor before I really knew how it was really defined.
Thanks for the input.
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The statement, "1 paint job" by itself, basically knocked it out of being a survivor car. IMO.
But, as you have seen here, there are several different people with several different personalities giving several different definitions of what "survivor" means in "their definition", So, whose wrong or whose right?
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Is there a period correct modified class ? Mods that were available in that time period, tri-y's, export braces, carbs/air cleaners. Mostly engine compartment stuff that sort of stuff that the street racers would have done. You know the type of mods that made these cars so popular. Just curious. Brian
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Is there a period correct modified class ? Mods that were available in that time period, tri-y's, export braces, carbs/air cleaners. Mostly engine compartment stuff that sort of stuff that the street racers would have done. You know the type of mods that made these cars so popular. Just curious. Brian
Don't know of any club or organization doing that. Not sure how many ways we can slice all the possible classes before everyone leaves with the first place trophy. Other than race car classes that some organizations have (such as the Competition classes at SAAC)
Of course the idea of original with period correct modifications was what Resto-Mods were originally suppose to be before that term (now copywritten) was in itself modified like the cars ;)
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MCA offers allot of classes but they can only carve out a limited number of possibilities just like any other organization. Currently there is no class just for the cars that aren't unrestored, are not restored and are not daily drivers.
I'm confused. I thought there was a class specifically for unrestored Mustangs: Division III: URA-URD?
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I'm confused. I thought there was a class specifically for unrestored Mustangs: Division III: URA-URD?
Sorry - Yes unrestored would fall into my description of "not restored" mentioned above ;) Poorly worded I guess :( - changed the "and" to "or" in that post
Its the "partially unrestored" that some in MCA are attempting to find a new home for
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I'm confused. I thought there was a class specifically for unrestored Mustangs: Division III: URA-URD?
SAAC has a DIV III for unrestored Shelby products.
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I'm confused. I thought there was a class specifically for unrestored Mustangs: Division III: URA-URD?
Yes, your exactly right: Division III; URA 1964 1/2-73, URB 1974-93, URC 1994-98, URD 1999-2004.
This has been updated to the 2014 version.
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The statement, "1 paint job" by itself, basically knocked it out of being a survivor car. IMO.
But, as you have seen here, there are several different people with several different personalities giving several different definitions of what "survivor" means in "their definition", So, whose wrong or whose right?
Yeah, I agree... IMO, a repaint nullifies "survivorship" as it is a form of restoration. You are restoring the paint to be like-new by replacing it completely with new paint (as opposed to a partial repaint out of necessity).
I just started taking my car to shows last season ~ it is a rough bugger, but I'm there for the fun of it. People see it and the first thing they say about the car is "Original paint! It's a survivor!" I always make sure to tell them "No, it is just really old paint (having been in several accidents over the years), and only a survivor in the sense that its been through alot and is still running and driving." :-)
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I just started taking my car to shows last season ~ it is a rough bugger, but I'm there for the fun of it. People see it and the first thing they say about the car is "Original paint! It's a survivor!" I always make sure to tell them "No, it is just really old paint (having been in several accidents over the years), and only a survivor in the sense that its been through alot and is still running and driving." :-)
I don't want to veer off the subject here, but if you're talking about your 70 Eliminator, WOW, what a rare Cougar indeed!! I had a chance in 2004 to get "a-hold" of a 70 Eliminator, (351C 4-V) same color as yours, from this guy in his early 20's. He said his grandpa give it to him. He had trashed the HE** out of it. And I wanted that cat SO bad. I did manage to get his phone number. I kept bothering him for over a year with phone calls, then one day when I called, his roommate said he moved to Atlanta and had told his friend not to give anybody his number. Oh well, you know the rest of the story :(
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I don't want to veer off the subject here, but if you're talking about your 70 Eliminator, WOW, what a rare Cougar indeed!! I had a chance in 2004 to get "a-hold" of a 70 Eliminator, (351C 4-V) same color as yours, from this guy in his early 20's. He said his grandpa give it to him. He had trashed the HE** out of it. And I wanted that cat SO bad. I did manage to get his phone number. I kept bothering him for over a year with phone calls, then one day when I called, his roommate said he moved to Atlanta and had told his friend not to give anybody his number. Oh well, you know the rest of the story :(
Yeah, "old stinky" as my wife and daughter refer to it. "Hey! I fixed all the fuel leaks, it's not stinky anymore... *sniff*sniff* well, not as stinky as it was." LOL!
Off Topic... Check over on MercuryCougar.net, or the ClassicCougarCommunity.com forums in the "for sale" sections. I keep a monthly thread on Eliminator sales. Haven't got it updated for Feb yet though (sorry!).
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Thanks for the info, I'll check it out. Although, I'm not in the market now to buy one ten years later, but always looking.
I remember offering him $2500 and he said he'd think about it, cause it did need some work, but thought it'd be cool to add it to my stable at that time.
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You wanta see survivor! I should post some pics of my Camaro! OH CRAP! Did I say Camaro on a MUSTANG site????????? :P