ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Body, Paint & Sealers => Topic started by: 68gurney on August 11, 2015, 12:12:43 AM
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Its time to paint my '68 Cougar. June '68 Dearborn build. Polar White. I've been going back on forth on the choice of single stage or two stage base/clear paint. And I'm about 90% convinced that I'm going to do single stage. Most people tell me to use modern base coat/clear coat as they just "look better".
Am I crazy doing single stage?
If I go single stage, is there is preferred brand or type of paint?
Urethane over enamel?
I'm shooting for a "concourse-driven" level restoration so I want to be correct. So I believe that single stage is the right thing to do. The body shop is competent in both.
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Single stage paint is fine on non metallic colors. The problem with it on metallic colors is if you have to buff it (most of the time you do) the metallic colors will become blotchy and cloudy looking. Urethane or catalyzed acrylic enamel would be fine however the urethane will be more durable and chip resistant if you plan on driving the car. The advantage of a 2 stage base clear system is reparability if you have to repaint a panel. The base color can be blended into the repaired panel and the entire panel cleared which avoids a mismatch to the adjacent panel. I think either way you go it will be fine since you are dealing with a color that matches pretty well when repainted. One thing I love about single stage solid colors is they touch up very nice. Myself I would use a urethane single stage paint if I was painting a solid white car. This of course is my opinion and hope this helps you in your decision.
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Single stage metallic can be done, it just takes a more experienced painter with a very clean paint environment. Any mottling or floating of the metallic (within reason) would actually be considered concours correct as this has been seen on many original paint cars. Probably not many judges familiar with this though.
PPG DCC Concept is a good paint line for single stage.
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Single stage paint is fine on non metallic colors. The problem with it on metallic colors is if you have to buff it (most of the time you do) the metallic colors will become blotchy and cloudy looking. Urethane or catalyzed acrylic enamel would be fine however the urethane will be more durable and chip resistant if you plan on driving the car. The advantage of a 2 stage base clear system is repairability if you have to repaint a panel. The base color can be blended into the repaired panel and the entire panel cleared which avoids a mismatch to the adjacent panel. I think either way you go it will be fine since you are dealing with a color that matches pretty well when repainted. One thing I love about single stage solid colors is they touch up very nice. Myself I would use a urethane single stage paint if I was painting a solid white car. This of course is my opinion and hope this helps you in your decision.
I agree with Chris. Urethane paints are much more durable. Use a quality paint and use everything (paint/primer/sealer,etc.) from the same manufacturer.
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Allot of painters today like the BC/CC paints since IMHO it doesn't take the effort and focus a single stage (that will not be cut and buffed) requires.
The BC/CC cars often roll out of the booth with dozens of runs and other things. They tell be that as long as they get enough clear on the car it will all come out in the cut and buffing. Yes it looks smoother and more perfect than the single stage laid by the same painter ::) but those shops are not typically painting restored cars but pretty cars.
I wish we had the choice locally to have/use single stage paints - instead it requires allot of miles of trailering
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I went through your same decision process on my Mustang. I am no paint expert, just a Mustang owner who wanted his car restored. The paint shops recommended the modern base/clear because it is easy to do, easy to repair, and looks better to most people, especially the casual observer. I was told that single stage is harder to do for a variety of reasons and may cost more because of the extra care and labor involved. Of course, you need to find someone who is an expert in this process and not someone just "willing" to do it for you. I spent a summer going to as many car shows and auctions as possible to look at cars and talk to owners about their paint and their opinions. My conclusion was that too many base/clear paint jobs look like the cars were dipped in clear. They would be more appropriate at a "Hot Rod" or custom show but not at all appropriate for a Concours restoration or one that tried to approach one. A very small percentage of the base/clear looked great, and to me, looked like single stage. I am sure that would not be the case for the judges at an MCA event though. My decision was to go with single stage urethane. The single stage paint just looked better to me and more appropriate for a 1960's car. It just "looks right." The paint shop picked BASF products and yes, they used BASF products for everything related to the job. They made that very clear that if there was a problem, the company would only stand by the warranty if all of their materials were used. They said they called the BASF Hot Line several times in the process to get technical advice and they were very happy with that help. The paint shop picked BASF, but I am sure there are other companies that make excellent products too. I am very happy with they paint job on the car and for a car that will be driven only several hundred miles a year this was the was to go.
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Thanks for your comments, ok its single stage. Seems like consensus on the best product is PPG Concept urethane. I've read elsewhere that it's now discontinued, true? What about availability in California? If not, what are the best alternatives?
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Thanks for your comments, ok its single stage. Seems like consensus on the best product is PPG Concept urethane. I've read elsewhere that it's now discontinued, true? What about availability in California? If not, what are the best alternatives?
Currently, in California, this sort of thing is governed by the Air Resources Board in each geographic area (does not follow country lines) as far as I know so it depends on where you are what you can legally shoot. Its a crazy mixed up way to do things and produces IMHO some odd combinations were you can apply certain products one city over and not in your location. Many painters have just given in and shot the water based stuff and leave it at that
You can purchase many products (even if you have to travel a distance or mail order it in), it is the application and a painter that seems to be the issue.
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Currently, in California, this sort of thing is governed by the Air Resources Board in each geographic area (does not follow country lines) as far as I know so it depends on where you are what you can legally shoot.
You can purchase many products (even if you have to travel a distance or mail order it in), it is the application and a painter that seems to be the issue.
The full name is California Air Resources Board" abbreviated "CARB", and the state's bureaucrats hate that four letter word.
The painter I recommend and use is about 60 miles away. The shop is in his garage but it's paint only, no body work (his knees are as bad as mine). He prefers single stage paint and does a good job in reproducing the effect you want, both orange peel, and metal flake. His paint is "imported" (from other states). It's word of mouth referrals (minimal written advertising).
Jim
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I read comments saying that the base clear paint job is easier than the single stage and that is not always the case. The same issues come up in base clear finishes as single stage such as orange peel, dirt, runs, mottling of the metallic and so on. The main reason it's used in shop's today is that is what came on most cars since the mid 80's and the formulas for the base are created for the two stage system. The base clear is a more forgiving if you need to buff a metallic color but other than that I really can't think of how it's much easier. In fact you end up putting more coats on with a base clear system, normally 2-3 coats of base coat and allow each coat to flash enough to tack it off before applying the next then 2- 3 coats of clear. A single stage system is normally 2-3 coats.
I thinks as for as being original we tend to over restore our cars today in many ways and especially paint. I would be willing to bet if a guy was to paint his old car in a acrylic enamel single stage and did not do any sanding or buffing some judges would deduct for orange peel or poor coverage that is typical on the underside of the rocker panels. I remember looking at a 1800 mile original 1982 Mustang GLX that was all original and note even washed much and the orange peel was so heavy it would be looked at as an economy repaint by todays standards. There is still orange peel in todays cars but it's much lighter as it's not applied by humans in most areas which makes it much more consistent and the clears do flow better than the old enamels. You can put as much orange peel as you want in a base clear system it's all how you lay down the clear. The Hot rod look you see on many cars is not because it's base clear it's because the painter applies 3 or more coats of clear and then wet sands the panel down flat and buffs it which gives It the smooth wet look. The same thing was done with the lacquer paints in the 50's and 60's. I agree this does not look right on a car that is to be restored original but many of them are that way. I think one reason is you can clean up a lot of mistakes by sanding them flat and buffing. Paint work is all about prepping the car and good work habits.
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I read comments saying that the base clear paint job is easier than the single stage and that is not always the case. The same issues come up in base clear finishes as single stage such as orange peel, dirt, runs, mottling of the metallic and so on.............
Chris just sharing what painters I know and see almost weekly have explained, shared and demonstrated for me a bunch of times. Like most things I'm sure it depends on the individual
I would be willing to bet if a guy was to paint his old car in a acrylic enamel single stage and did not do any sanding or buffing some judges would deduct for orange peel or poor coverage that is typical on the underside of the rocker panels. .........
Never had an older car that was cut and buffed after it was painted and can report that that has not been the case in my experiences but I'm sure there are some judges that some judges have gotten so use to the dipped in plastic look that they would make that mistake...... they often would be the same ones that would deduct for other correct parts. :(
One of the things we try and do here is to offer a look at unrestored cars rather than the restored since many have difficulty, it seems, finding anything other than restored cars to learn from
Bottom line - I do agree that many have become accustom to the over restored look
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Well after discussing with the body shop owner and painter that I have chosen, it's going to be two stage. I would have really preferred a nice single stage paint job and the painter and shop has a lot of experience with them in the past. They tell me the current paint formulations just suck. They use mostly PPG products and have not been able to get Concept for a while now, and every single stage paint available to them has a sub-standard hardener. So they are strongly recommending two stage. The shop owner is restoring a 69 Black Charger right now and wanted to do single stage for the same reasons I did, but he is doing two stage as well.
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Well after discussing with the body shop owner and painter that I have chosen, it's going to be two stage. I would have really preferred a nice single stage paint job and the painter and shop has a lot of experience with them in the past. They tell me the current paint formulations just suck. They use mostly PPG products and have not been able to get Concept for a while now, and every single stage paint available to them has a sub-standard hardener. So they are strongly recommending two stage. The shop owner is restoring a 69 Black Charger right now and wanted to do single stage for the same reasons I did, but he is doing two stage as well.
PPG DCC is readily available with five different hardeners available. Google PPG concept for product sheets and give them to your paint shop. I would suggest you not settle for BC on a white car!
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They tell me the current paint formulations just suck.
Statements like that make me question the painter's diligence and competence.
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I am not a painter, but as I said above, the painter I used, used BASF and I am thrilled with the result. So there's PPG, and BASF and probably others. If you never plan to take your car to a judged Concours or an MCA that is one thing, but if you do you will be able to see the difference in the paints. I just went to a car show with over 500 cars, and the clear coated ones really stuck out. Some 2-stage were better than others, but some had that fake dipped look that you certainly don't want if you go that way. I would check other paint shops in the area. Also, call the tech hot lines of the major paint companies. You can probably get a lot of good information from them. But I would not "settle" for a paint job. It is too big of an investment, and not easy to change later.
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I agree. You are the one paying. You should be the one who makes the choice.
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If a current paint formula is not satisfactory, a competent paint shop should be able to match an original sample.
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Just be sure it has good orange peel.
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Let me toss a monkey wrench in the paint can -
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/how-something-you-spray-on-your-kids-can-melt-your-128334848277.html
Jim
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One thing to consider when discussing paint durability with your painter is to remind him the car will not be subject to the harsh conditions that a car driven every day and sits out all year will. For example I painted my 70 Boss 302 in 1989 with Dupont Centari enamel single stage with a hardener and the car sits in the garage most of the time like most of our cars but does get driven and has sat out at many hot summer day car shows and the paint still looks great with no fading. If this car was driven every day and sat out all the time the finish would be shot in a few years as this product had a fading problem back in the day. Since your painter didn't explain what his concerns are about the single stage hardeners I assume it's either durability or the flow of the finish. The older paints did have more peel and if you want it original that is the way they where. All that being said I think you will be satisfied with either single stage or base clear but don't feel it's really needed on a non metallic color.
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One thing to consider when discussing paint durability with your painter is to remind him the car will not be subject to the harsh conditions that a car driven every day and sits out all year will. ...........
+! if its going to be stored/exposed ALLOT outside. It might help but has not for me
On my third coat of paints (BC/CC) on my 2000 F250 and its peeling again. :( Unfortunately the shops knowing hat it will be always outside has not helped
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I think a lot of the problems with peeling clearcoat is the timing when applying the clear.
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I have had cars with clear coat that sit outside and I have never once seen any peeling.
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The main reason why the original base clear coats delaminate is the factory does not apply enough of it and the clear coat is where all the U.V protection is. Many of the U.S plants apply basically one wet coat and it has enough mil thickness to get it out the door but after a few years it breaks lose from the base coat. I have a Ranger truck I bought new and the finish lasted about 6 years and I repainted in base clear and applied 2 full wet coats and 11 years later it still looks good and has sit outside since day one. Clear coat delamination on vehicles that have been refinished by painters in shops is typically a user error or product failure in my opinion.
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....... Clear coat delamination on vehicles that have been refinished by painters in shops is typically a user error or product failure in my opinion.
Thought it might have to do with minimum coat then cutting and buffing - as well as environmental issues
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Found an explanation from a former PPG chemist. He replied to a post showing "bubbling" under clearcoat which led to peeling. But he covers multiple causes in his reply, some of which were mentioned here.
Tom, I worked for PPG (Resins and Coatings Division, Automotive OEM and Refinish) for 16 years, starting out as a chemist and ending up in sales. That said, I'll tell you a few of the causes for the problems you showed us.
Number one: Extreme temperature variations cause delamination between the clearcoat and the basecoat color. This will also rarely happen between the basecoat color and the substrate primer. Basically the clearcoat will expand and contract at a different rate than the basecoat color in extreme heat or cold. It actually happens more often on areas of the car where snow, ice, or frost accumulate. It can also be accelerated in areas that are subsequently heated quickly, such as a hood over the engine.
Number two: Acid Rain, as previously mentioned penetrates the clearcoat surface and breaks down the chemical bond between the clearcoat and the basecoat color. Again, this will cause a delamination between the layers since once the chemical bond is destroyed, only the weaker mechanical bond remains. Like the above reason, usually occurs predominately on top surfaces for obvious reasons.
Number three: More likely on repaints...recoat sensitivity, or not enough dry time either between the basecoat color coats and the clearcoat or not enough flash time between coats of clear. Again, unlikely on OEM and will usually show up much sooner in the form of "solvent popping".
Number four: Poor compatibility between the clearcoat and the basecoat color. I would think Dodge would know better than to do this but I've seen it on OEM before. You can't just put any clear over any substrate. In the old days when I first started, guys used to try to put acrylics over laquer (). The acrylics were usually much "hotter" and would dissolve the laquer under them. It can be done but usually with an intermediary barrier coat.
Number five: Insufficient clearcoat applied (or even some has been removed by color sanding or buffing) causing the clearcoat to provide a poor UV and chemical barrier. In the late 80s and early 90s the Big 3 were big offenders of this one. They were only allowed to spray a certain quantity of VOCs so rather than paint less cars, they just used less clearcoat on the same number of cars. We all remember the cars and especially trucks running around with paint peeling off back then. Well, there wasn't enough clearcoat or even colorcoat UV and chemical barrier protection to keep the primers from degrading so both the chemical and mechanical bonds were destroyed under the topcoats. It's like leaving something primered and never painting it. After a while the primer looks like chalk. This is another unlikely scenario based on the pictures you posted.
Number six: Poor waterbourne technology. Again, based on the VOC regulations of the time, auto manufacturers used a significant amount of waterbourne materials. Unfortunately, the technology was not very advanced at the time and the protection provided by these materials was substandard at best. Just about anything would penetrate these clearcoats, including water if left to absorb long enough (e.g. snow pack on the roof or hood). This scenario is also likely, based on the period your car was built.
There are a few other possible causes as well, but I could go on forever and a couple of these are most likely.
The bottom line is, the only fix is to sand it down (no chemical stripping) or media blast it off and repaint.
Good luck, hope this helps.
Source: http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?29024-Examples-of-clearcoat-failure-and-an-explanation-of-possible-causes (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?29024-Examples-of-clearcoat-failure-and-an-explanation-of-possible-causes)
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I just got done doing my 70 B302 in Grabber blue and its a single stage in DCC acrylic urethane paint and if u really want that super deep look , you can also clear coat it. You can color sand & buff out single stage if desired.
Using a solid color I would use single stage as others have stated, its easier to blend if needded on a repair ( yes it takes an experienced painter) the 2 stage water paint base is junk- the reason they use the water base paint as its super easy to blend paint.
Look at all these cars on the road that have clear coat coming off on the roof line, 1/4, deck lids, hoods etc they all are 2 stage water based paint.
PPG makes a very good product and in acrylic or enamel base paints with the correct hardners.
Below is pics of my 70 B302
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There is a chemical bond between base color and clear coat. When that bond is broken down, it will peel. Or if the proper bond never happened. This has happened with OEM finishes as the factories try to do things faster and cheaper. You all have seen cars with peeling clear that have never been repaint. All the manufacturers have experienced this over the years. With all that being said, a SS urethane solid color can look just as good as a BC/CC IMO. Urethane is durable, you can cut and buff just as BC/CC. If some shop is pushing you one way or another, it is not because they are looking out for what you want. It is purely for them.