ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: kryptonite on February 24, 2016, 02:32:06 PM
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Hello Everyone.
My name is Russ and I am restoring my 65 Fastback.
I have started working towards getting work done on my 65 Fastback and I need some guidance from the experts!
My plan is to restore this car back to original as possible (possibly concours, haven't fully crossed that bridge yet).
The seller had painted the car red (originally Ivy Green Metallic) and changed the interior to black (originally White w/Ivy Gold Appointments)
He also replaced the drive side door with one off of a coupe, but did not transfer the data plate, so all the original information I've been able to get about my car is off the buck tag. Is there another place I can look on the car to find correct information?
1) My car looks to be an early 65. Date code (23G) shows it is an early 65. July 23, 1964.
What does that mean for my car?
2) Interior code is D8, which translates to White Crinkle Vinyl w/ Ivy Gold Appointments; Standard Interior.
What color should my carpet be?
Dash Pad?
What is accented/appointed?
The car is getting ready to be sent to a restoration shop to get the floor pan replaced as well as fix some body damage I found once I sanded the car down to bare metal. The shop recommended replacing the complete pan instead of patching the damaged areas with replacement pieces.
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Hi Russ-
I would contact Kevin Marti to get the information you are seeking. I might also suggest you talk to him about having a new door tag made. Good luck with the project!
Bill
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Hi Russ-
I would contact Kevin Marti to get the information you are seeking. I might also suggest you talk to him about having a new door tag made. Good luck with the project!
Bill
FYI Kevin's data base does not include 65/66 however he can help with deciphering (or his book) the buck tag and also help with a reproduction door tag.
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Hi Russ, welcome to the forum!
You'll need to make sure you learn about the differences in replacement floor pans vs. original. Most shops do not know and will act like you're bothering them if you ask to modify correctly.
That's a very early fastback, there are probably lots of little things that are going to be different... or at least some carryover "64 1/2" parts... mostly sheet metal and other differences.
Although, when you mention a buck tag, that would date the car much later. You might want to post the VIN.
Are you still in the Raleigh area?
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my favorite color, other than mine! ha ha. I also have an early fastback Oct 64. There are a few differences but not many. I did NOT have lot of 64 parts on mine.
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Welcome Russ,
Do some reading, get familiar with the library, look at the posted pictures and have fun - not necessarily in that order.
My plan is to restore this car back to original as possible (possibly concours, haven't fully crossed that bridge yet).
That's a goal. Some combine concourse and driving, others not quite as detailed.
The seller had painted the car red (originally Ivy Green Metallic) and changed the interior to black (originally White w/Ivy Gold Appointments)
He also replaced the drive side door with one off of a coupe, but did not transfer the data plate, so all the original information I've been able to get about my car is off the buck tag. Is there another place I can look on the car to find correct information?
You got part of the answer in the buck tag. If you post your VIN and a picture of the buck tag you can get some feedback as to what you got.
1) My car looks to be an early 65. Date code (23G) shows it is an early 65. July 23, 1964.
What does that mean for my car?
I think you may have a problem in "early" vs. "late" 65. The change over to 65 Mustang production was August, 1964, so you may have a "late" 65.
2) Interior code is D8, which translates to White Crinkle Vinyl w/ Ivy Gold Appointments; Standard Interior.
What color should my carpet be?
Carpet, dash pad and seat belts will be Medium Ivy Gold.
The car is getting ready to be sent to a restoration shop to get the floor pan replaced as well as fix some body damage I found once I sanded the car down to bare metal. The shop recommended replacing the complete pan instead of patching the damaged areas with replacement pieces.
A good start. Make sure you determine the undercarriage color first - repeat that to the shop several times. Shops tend to be "independent" in their thinking and use of primer.
Jim
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Welcome Russ
1) My car looks to be an early 65. Date code (23G) shows it is an early 65. July 23, 1964.
What does that mean for my car?
It means that when that particular Ford plant received the order for your car the worker guessed that they would be finished with your car on that date. Normally/often it wasn't a correct guess
2) Interior code is D8, which translates to White Crinkle Vinyl w/ Ivy Gold Appointments; Standard Interior.
What color should my carpet be?
Dash Pad?
What is accented/appointed?
Carpet was a green/gold color (ivy) - From other owners experience it will be difficult to match the original colors with what is available today. Thing there is a thread related to that subject here on the site
Dash Pad was Ivy also
Appointments = Believe just the dash pad, seat belts, carpet and vinyl sill strips (changed since the car apparently was built in 1965 near the end of 65 production)
Example of carpet color
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-240216152745-52412385.jpeg)
Example of dash pad color
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-240216153451.jpeg)
Example of white with "xxx" appointment pattern - sorry could not find a white with Ivy gold example. Just replace the black with ivy gold part
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-240216152749-52441834.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-240216152747-5243526.jpeg)
The car is getting ready to be sent to a restoration shop to get the floor pan replaced as well as fix some body damage I found once I sanded the car down to bare metal. The shop recommended replacing the complete pan instead of patching the damaged areas with replacement pieces.
If you replace the whole pan you need to be concerned (if your restoring) that they will be reproducing all of the factory welds and final look. Over the last 5 years or so many shops have chosen to instead to leave the original edges in place (unless there is damage in those areas) and replace the panels without disturbing the welds and in turn leave panel dates attached also. Just something to consider
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My 65 Fastback has an approximate build date of September 2, 1964. There was an abundance of 64 1/2 carry over parts. I have to agree with Jim that the roll over to production of the 65 model year was in August of 1964. Where did you get the 23 G date code you refer too? Is it from a sheet metal stamping?
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.......He also replaced the drive side door with one off of a coupe, but did not transfer the data plate, so all the original information I've been able to get about my car is off the buck tag. ..................
Believe from the buck tag -
So if looks like he has a NJ car (Dearborn and San Jose didn't use buck tags during July 64 and NJ wasn't building Mustangs yet) which then leads us to the car being built in July 23, 1965 not July 23, 1964 unless I'm missing something. Unless someone made a fake buck tag for one of the other plants and installed it but doubt it if the past owner didn't even have a fake door take made to show the modified colors they choose
Russ would help in the future if you could include the VIN (you can leave out the last three numbers if you feel like it) or more info on your car when you post a question. When and where play a BIG part in getting the right information in return ;)
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This really helps getting me going.
I went to Marti's site to decipher my VIN:
Hi Charles (caspian65)! I am still in Clayton.
Here is the information off my buck tag:
D
26 G23 5T09C0186206
63A R D8
K BS 4 Speed RM V8
I put posted it the way it shows up on the buck tag. I hope I have deciphered it correctly:
D Dealer Ordered
26 Welding Bay
G23 7/23/1964??
5T09C0186206 VIN
63A 2+2 Fastback
R Ivy Green Metallic
D8 White Crinkle Vinyl w/ Ivy Gold Accents; Standard Interior
K Backup Lights?
BS Seat Belts?
4 Speed 4 Speed Manual Transmission
RM Remote Mirrors
V8 289 Emblem
I've stripped about 90% of the car down to bare metal using a combination of sanding and paint stripper. Looks like the previous owner took spray paint and painted the carpet and much of the interior parts black. I've been able to strip all of the interior parts back to white, but I think I'll have to re-paint to original color.
The shop I am taking the car to hopefully next week to do the metalwork is Klassic Rides in Denver, NC.
Is there a better vendor for replacing the complete floor pan? Dynacorn? NPD?? CJPony Parts???
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Hello Everyone.
My name is Russ and I am restoring my 65 Fastback.
I have started working towards getting work done on my 65 Fastback and I need some guidance from the experts!
My plan is to restore this car back to original as possible (possibly concours, haven't fully crossed that bridge yet).
The seller had painted the car red (originally Ivy Green Metallic) and changed the interior to black (originally White w/Ivy Gold Appointments)
He also replaced the drive side door with one off of a coupe, but did not transfer the data plate, so all the original information I've been able to get about my car is off the buck tag. Is there another place I can look on the car to find correct information?
1) My car looks to be an early 65. Date code (23G) shows it is an early 65. July 23, 1964.
What does that mean for my car?
If the 23G date is from a Metuchen buck tag, it is July 23, 1965 rather than July 23, 1964. It is not too far off from my late 65 coupe, which has a buck date of F29. Unlike the door tags, the buck tags did not use second year production codes. Here's a quote from the Marti Tagbook, as cited in an earlier thread:
"The next code on the second line is the date that the buck was completed. It is in reverse order compared to the door data plate. The second year of production codes were not used, so if a Mustang was built in May of 1965, the door tag used the letter "S" for the month, but the buck tag used the letter "E". Following the build date is the serial number of the car."
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If the 23G date is from a Metuchen buck tag, it is July 23, 1965 rather than July 23, 1964. It is not too far off from my late 65 coupe, which has a buck date of F29. Unlike the door tags, the buck tags did not use second year production codes. Here's a quote from the Marti Tagbook, as cited in an earlier thread:
"The next code on the second line is the date that the buck was completed. It is in reverse order compared to the door data plate. The second year of production codes were not used, so if a Mustang was built in May of 1965, the door tag used the letter "S" for the month, but the buck tag used the letter "E". Following the build date is the serial number of the car."
I was a little suspect of it possibly being an early 65, though that would have been kewl if it happened to be.
I guess missing the door tag I am missing some information concerning my car?
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I was a little suspect of it possibly being an early 65, though that would have been kewl if it happened to be.
I guess missing the door tag I am missing some information concerning my car?
With your help we should be able to determine what the original door tag originally included - the DSO is often the biggest challenge in this process. An owners manual or window sticker with the dealer or region would help
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One of the best sources of information, especially if you are missing the door tag, is a build sheet. On Metuchen cars, they are sometimes taped to the instrument panel wiring harness or under the seat springs. I was able to find mine and fill in most of the information from my missing door tag.
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One of the best sources of information, especially if you are missing the door tag, is a build sheet. On Metuchen cars, they are sometimes taped to the instrument panel wiring harness or under the seat springs. I was able to find mine and fill in most of the information from my missing door tag.
Excellent idea !!! So uncommon to find those on local cars I pretty much forgot that possibility on an early car
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One of the best sources of information, especially if you are missing the door tag, is a build sheet. On Metuchen cars, they are sometimes taped to the instrument panel wiring harness or under the seat springs. I was able to find mine and fill in most of the information from my missing door tag.
Yea, that was one of the first things I looked for. Didn't see it. :'(
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Yea, that was one of the first things I looked for. Didn't see it. :'(
I never found mine, but my car had been gone through once before I got it. I haven't looked at the wiring harness close, but I assume mine is gone!
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If you think the car might have sold originally in NC, try doing a DMV title history search. You have to say it's for research purposes and you do not intend to contact previous owners. Have to go to downtown Raleigh DMV office and request it in person, it usually takes them about 15-30 minutes. That could at least narrow down the DSO, although not 100% definitive.
I believe I have seen some work done by the place in Denver, it wasn't concours level, not even close.
I'd suggest taking a bit more time to collect your thoughts on what exactly you want. It can be very costly to correct poor workmanship later. You may want to post some pics of what you have to get more input on the best approach. Shops will want to replace full panels as it's quicker for them and less headache. It's almost always better to weld in patch panels and keep as much original sheet metal as possible. A lot of body shops won't want to do this though... or do not have the skill level.
One other thing, check up in the roof area for a build sheet. My first fastback, a Metuchen car, had one stuffed up in the metal above the headliner. They are almost always taped to the main wiring harness. Someone probably removed it if it isn't there.
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When you get to that last bit of information missing from the door data tag, fake it. (Jeff won't like that.) I'm referring to the DSO. The best guess (and closest to you) would be 22 Charlotte (in North Carolina I believe). Look for service labels on the door jams for "clues".
Jim
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If you think the car might have sold originally in NC, try doing a DMV title history search. You have to say it's for research purposes and you do not intend to contact previous owners. Have to go to downtown Raleigh DMV office and request it in person, it usually takes them about 15-30 minutes. That could at least narrow down the DSO, although not 100% definitive.
I believe I have seen some work done by the place in Denver, it wasn't concours level, not even close.
I'd suggest taking a bit more time to collect your thoughts on what exactly you want. It can be very costly to correct poor workmanship later. You may want to post some pics of what you have to get more input on the best approach. Shops will want to replace full panels as it's quicker for them and less headache. It's almost always better to weld in patch panels and keep as much original sheet metal as possible. A lot of body shops won't want to do this though... or do not have the skill level.
One other thing, check up in the roof area for a build sheet. My first fastback, a Metuchen car, had one stuffed up in the metal above the headliner. They are almost always taped to the main wiring harness. Someone probably removed it if it isn't there.
Well if there was one in the roof area, it's not there anymore. I forgot to mention that the guy I bought the car from had some roof damage and the rear glass was busted out. When I pulled the headliner, I it looked like a squirrel made a nest in between the roof panel and headliner. It was raining acorns and other "stuff". :o
Here are some pictures of my car after I had started stripping it down. The previous owner had also riveted cardboard on the underside of the car to cover the holes in the floor, so I wouldn't see them while I inspected the car. Looked like he also used some of the truck bed liner to hide the cardboard too.
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I've seen worse dents in the roof. A good body guy can fix those with minimal to no filler required. Don't let anyone convince you to replace the roof... big mistake.
One pic catches the "absence" of the rear floor... looks like it may benefit from a full floor?
Definitely a lot of work. Best to strip it to the bone, take everything, I mean everything off the unibody. Bag and tag parts, don't throw away anything. It might be best to get the body shop to do all the sheet metal repair and then have the whole car media blasted.
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When you get to that last bit of information missing from the door data tag, fake it. (Jeff won't like that.) I'm referring to the DSO..............
Sometimes with the early cars I agree that you have to use a "best guess" Nice thing with teh door tags is that you can change it later if you get better info :D
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I've seen worse dents in the roof. A good body guy can fix those with minimal to no filler required. Don't let anyone convince you to replace the roof... big mistake.
One pic catches the "absence" of the rear floor... looks like it may benefit from a full floor?
Definitely a lot of work. Best to strip it to the bone, take everything, I mean everything off the unibody. Bag and tag parts, don't throw away anything. It might be best to get the body shop to do all the sheet metal repair and then have the whole car media blasted.
When I stripped the car, I put all the small parts in freezer bags and labelled where they came from and then packaged them with the larger parts so I knew what went with what.
The floor has holes under the driver and passenger feet as well as behind both front seats. The remainder of the floor pan actually looks decent. Also the toe boards on the driver side is pretty bad. Some little holes in the trunk pan. The car looks like its been in an accident. When stripping the paint, found A LOT of bondo covering the damage.
All I am getting the bodyshop to do now is repair the body damage (ie floor and roof dents and any rear quarter damage)
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If the 23G date is from a Metuchen buck tag, it is July 23, 1965 rather than July 23, 1964. It is not too far off from my late 65 coupe, which has a buck date of F29. Unlike the door tags, the buck tags did not use second year production codes. Here's a quote from the Marti Tagbook, as cited in an earlier thread:
"The next code on the second line is the date that the buck was completed. It is in reverse order compared to the door data plate. The second year of production codes were not used, so if a Mustang was built in May of 1965, the door tag used the letter "S" for the month, but the buck tag used the letter "E". Following the build date is the serial number of the car."
+1 The body bucks tags are different beast in that they didn't use the second year of production codes for the date (just to screw us up :) ) unlike the door date plates which did use the second year of production codes for the date.
On my Metuchen built car, the door data plate tag date is "19U" (aka July 19th, 1965) but the buck tag date is "G21" (aka July 21st, 1965). So it was bucked a couple of days later than was originally scheduled. The date on my door tag plate 19U matches the Scheduled Production date on my car's Build Sheet. I was fortunate to find my build sheet wrapped around the main underdash wiring harness. I appears my car was built very close to the car in question in this thread - Neat!
Regards,
Ron
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+1 The body bucks tags are different beast in that they didn't use the second year of production codes for the date (just to screw us up :) ) unlike the door date plates which did use the second year of production codes for the date.
On my Metuchen built car, the door data plate tag date is "19U" (aka July 19th, 1965) but the buck tag date is "G21" (aka July 21st, 1965). So it was bucked a couple of days later than was originally scheduled. The date on my door tag plate 19U matches the Scheduled Production date on my car's Build Sheet. I was fortunate to find my build sheet wrapped around the main underdash wiring harness. I appears my car was built very close to the car in question in this thread - Neat!
Regards,
Ron
Ron,
Your car was produced pretty close to my Metuchen coupe. My buck date is F29 (June 29, 1965) and the scheduled date on my build sheet is 08U (July 8, 1965).
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Well some luck has come shining down on me today!
While getting my car ready to go for bodywork I found what was left of my build sheet!
It possibly had come loose from the wiring harness under the dash and wash lying on the steering wheel column.
It is is pretty bad shape, but I was able to piece it back together with some tape and a blank piece of paper!
50 year old paper is pretty brittle!!!!! ::)
Can someone post me an example of a build sheet so I can try and figure out the wholes I have on mine?
Looking for the headings more than anything.
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Some of the print is pretty small and for a 65 Mustangs only about a third of the boxes were used since the buildsheet was designed to apply to all Ford products that year
Believe they make reproductions - not sure how correct the early ones are - the later versions fall short INHO
Here is one that has been blanked out hope you can make out most of the info - some of the print is pretty small and reproducing it on screen makes many of the sections hard to read. It is missing the two columns on the far left but its the best scan I have for 64/65 form . Hope it helps
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-050316171444.jpeg)
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Here's my late 65 build sheet.
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Some of the print is pretty small and for a 65 Mustangs only about a third of the boxes were used since the buildsheet was designed to apply to all Ford products that year
Believe they make reproductions - not sure how correct the early ones are - the later versions fall short INHO
Here is one that has been blanked out hope you can make out most of the info - some of the print is pretty small and reproducing it on screen makes many of the sections hard to read. It is missing the two columns on the far left but its the best scan I have for 64/65 form . Hope it helps
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/5/6-050316171444.jpeg)
I actually have quite a few boxes filled in on what is left than mine.
Yea, mine has holes in certain places as well as black tape pieces that were indistinguishable and weren't attached to what I had found. Good thing I didn't just grab it. It would have crumbled to dust in my hands. the numbers were legible in the serial number section.
What is that section to the left of serial number? I couldn't read the heading, but had some numbers in that box. My schedule date was 12U and I had 26 in the box to the right of the schedule box, but couldn't really make out the heading as part of it was missing. Could that be region District?
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I actually have quite a few boxes filled in on what is left than mine.
Yea, mine has holes in certain places as well as black tape pieces that were indistinguishable and weren't attached to what I had found. Good thing I didn't just grab it. It would have crumbled to dust in my hands. the numbers were legible in the serial number section.
What is that section to the left of serial number? I couldn't read the heading, but had some numbers in that box. My schedule date was 12U and I had 26 in the box to the right of the schedule box, but couldn't really make out the heading as part of it was missing. Could that be region District?
Yes, that's the "region district" box. This thread has some good information on build sheets, including some of the more obscure codes.
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=3925.0 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=3925.0)
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Thanks!
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I actually have quite a few boxes filled in on what is left than mine.
Yea, mine has holes in certain places as well as black tape pieces that were indistinguishable and weren't attached to what I had found. Good thing I didn't just grab it. It would have crumbled to dust in my hands. the numbers were legible in the serial number section.
What is that section to the left of serial number? I couldn't read the heading, but had some numbers in that box. My schedule date was 12U and I had 26 in the box to the right of the schedule box, but couldn't really make out the heading as part of it was missing. Could that be region District?
Did you look for tape wrapped around the harness above where you found the sheet laying on the column? Maybe some sections (to fill your holes) are still under the tape on the harness?
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What is that section to the left of serial number?
ROT - (Second) rotation number
I couldn't read the heading, but had some numbers in that box. My schedule date was 12U and I had 26 in the box to the right of the schedule box, but couldn't really make out the heading as part of it was missing. Could that be region District?
Top row to the far right Second to last box - Regional District then the last box DSO/FSO/PYO
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Any recommendations for mustang salvage yards in the NC/SC/VA area?
I had one, but now I can't find my notes on its location, it was in VA.
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Any recommendations for mustang salvage yards in the NC/SC/VA area?
I had one, but now I can't find my notes on its location, it was in VA.
For what? Anything remaining in salvage yards these days has to be pretty bad.
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Any recommendations for mustang salvage yards in the NC/SC/VA area?
I had one, but now I can't find my notes on its location, it was in VA.
Not a Mustang specific yard, but it is/was a huge yard of all pre-75's. I do not know if it is still open, but check out Leon's Auto Parts, Leon, VA 22725. 540-547-2366