ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1968 Mustang => Topic started by: 66427 on March 28, 2016, 01:24:51 PM
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My Booster and Master Cylinder are out being restored.
If I'm correct the Booster is originally finished in semi gloss black?
Master cylinder and lid are ?
If it matters Mid Feb 68 New Jersey car
Thanks Dave
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Booster, master cylinder (complete with lid) all semi-gloss black as unit painted before it was installed on the car
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Booster, master cylinder (complete with lid) all semi-gloss black as unit painted before it was installed on the car
and bail wire .
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I don't have a booster but am I to read this as meaning my brake master cylinder, cap, and bail wire are all to be painted semi gloss black on my 68 Metuchen car?
While we're at it can you direct me to a list of firewall finishes? I've searched some to no avail.
PS per the MCA concours judging sheet it says the master cylinder could be black or cast iron finish and the cap black or zinc-dichromate finish.
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GG. Master Cylinder, Power Brake Unit and Rigid Brake Lines:
Master Cylinder: Semi-gloss black.
Cap: Manual Semi-gloss black or zinc-dichromate with debossed warning.
Power Brake Booster: All Semi-gloss black including master cylinder cap.
If I read this right the manual brake cap is allowed to be unpainted?
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Here's the current situation with my master cylinder. I've cleaned up the cap mostly. Can't tell through all the rust if it was originally painted black or just left cast iron finish. Also the cap had not indication of being painted - it was just dirty and rusty.
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I know that the vent on the cap of a disc brake cap was a 1970 and later thing. If the same holds true to the non disc cap then the vent seen under the bail wire in the picture indicates that the cap has been changed sometime in the past.
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I don't have a booster but am I to read this as meaning my brake master cylinder, cap, and bail wire are all to be painted semi gloss black on my 68 Metuchen car?
Yes - all of it
While we're at it can you direct me to a list of firewall finishes? I've searched some to no avail.
Firewall would have been painted then parts install on it (steering column, brake lines and master cylinder, electrical, heater and so on) then spray sealant/adhesive sprayed over most if not all of those areas to insure water and vapors could not pass through from engine compartment to interior
PS per the MCA concours judging sheet it says the master cylinder could be black or cast iron finish and the cap black or zinc-dichromate finish.
Please understand that MCA rules does not always reflect how the cars were actually built all the time. Plenty of examples where how each plant and their suppliers did things differently plus you have the issue of older details that are already applied to cars that have been restored a while back and still show and the reluctance at times to deal with that. If you do build the car as it was actually built you should do fine and IMHO it will reflect how the car was really built
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It has been mentioned how paints don't stick well to plated finishes when compared to bare metal. Same can be said of aluminum
Also did notice in my pictures there are a fair amount of new (NOS) caps on cars. Fairly popular update for owners. They were cheap and looked much much better
Couple of pictures showing style and in some cases black paint still visible. Plenty of rusty, old looking ones I choose not to post at the time
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-130722163525-17587688.jpeg)
From one of the examples in the Unrestored Picture section
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-130722163556-175882352.jpeg)
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IMHO manual brake master cylinders were natural cast and the lids were zinc dichromate. This is what I found on our 68 unrestored San Jose car.
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With the amount of rust on my master cylinder it would not surprise me if it was not painted black initially. I think the only way to at least make it presentable though is to paint it black after treating the rust. Otherwise a new master cylinder would be in order to get it back to the unpainted condition I think.
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IMHO manual brake master cylinders were natural cast and the lids were zinc dichromate. This is what I found on our 68 unrestored San Jose car.
It is my understanding that the lids change from zinc dichromate gold to silver zinc was a early late 68 transition.
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Looking at the pictures posted by Jeff, and according to Bob, it does appear my lid and possibly master cylinder is not the original or at least the cap was changed. So at least I could get the proper cap. Any suggestions on who has this cap in either the silver zinc or zinc dichromate version?
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My San Jose booster had drip marks from the painting process that was dripping horizontal, giving me the opinion the booster was painted off the car and hung up to drip dry. I'll try and dig out photos from my archive. Build date was mid Dec 67. Also had an unusual sticker on the master cylinder lid. Red text on a black background.
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I found a couple of caps on ebay both listed as C7AZ-2162-A which I'm guessing is a service replacement. Would this work in my situation as a concours car?
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I found a couple of caps on ebay both listed as C7AZ-2162-A which I'm guessing is a service replacement. Would this work in my situation as a concours car?
Amazing how different each of the service parts is from the replacements. There are even two different styles of service part, neither resembling the original.
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Per Angel Restorations document attached it lists the C7AZ-2162-A. Is that not the case?
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I found a couple of caps on ebay both listed as C7AZ-2162-A which I'm guessing is a service replacement. Would this work in my situation as a concours car?
Jeff's pictures give a advantage on what to look for. If the caps look like the ones in Jeff's pictures then they would pass . If a replacement cap does not look like the assemblyline original then of course it would be subject to possible deductions in concours. Finding a used cap that is in good condition and not rust pitted to refinish is one solution.
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Master cylinders can be difficult along with some other parts since they are so often serviced, replaced or rebuilt during the cars earlier owner ship. Add to this the surface rust often foudn on the main case, exposure to spilled brake fluid and so on.
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Per Angel Restorations document attached it lists the C7AZ-2162-A. Is that not the case?
Sure that's the original part number. It's a different part if you look at the photo Marcus provides of the correct assembly line part.
"C7AZ-2162-A Caps would be for master cylinders with two equal size reservoirs so therefore a completely different cap. The cap was stamped with the SAE 70R3 on early cars and SAE J1703 on later cars and had two breather vents on the lip of the cap. Drum brake master cylinder caps never had a mention of Ford specific brake fluid or Ford specifications. This cap was used by all Ford drum brake cars from 1967 to 1973, not just Mustangs."
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Sure that's the original part number. It's a different part if you look at the photo Marcus provides of the correct assembly line part.
"C7AZ-2162-A Caps would be for master cylinders with two equal size reservoirs so therefore a completely different cap. The cap was stamped with the SAE 70R3 on early cars and SAE J1703 on later cars and had two breather vents on the lip of the cap. Drum brake master cylinder caps never had a mention of Ford specific brake fluid or Ford specifications. This cap was used by all Ford drum brake cars from 1967 to 1973, not just Mustangs."
So that there is no confusion to clarify in the context of a 68 "later" doesn't mean later that year but instead later production years had the vents given it was used up to and including 1973. It is a common occurrence that later service parts do not match what came on the assemblyline.
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"C7AZ-2162-A Caps would be for master cylinders with two equal size reservoirs so therefore a completely different cap. The cap was stamped with the SAE 70R3 on early cars and SAE J1703 on later cars and had two breather vents on the lip of the cap. Drum brake master cylinder caps never had a mention of Ford specific brake fluid or Ford specifications. This cap was used by all Ford drum brake cars from 1967 to 1973, not just Mustangs."
Believe you will find that the SAE 70RS and SAE J1703 identified the brake fluids to be used since it was a change across all car models and passenger car applications at the same time not just disc or drum applications. Found plenty of references on the internet about the two and their differences.
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So who manufactured the master cylinder? I'm assuming it wasn't Ford. And what casting numbers or markings can we expect to find on the original proper units? Is there a thread somewhere discussing all this?
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Bendix was the OEM supplier.
Didn't originals have the round or hex headed screw in the bottom? I looked at some that I have and found two with original type caps and one of them had the hex screw in the bottom.
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So who manufactured the master cylinder? I'm assuming it wasn't Ford. And what casting numbers or markings can we expect to find on the original proper units? Is there a thread somewhere discussing all this?
Think we need to specify or maybe split the topic since I think we're getting two or more of the master cylinder comments, findings and details over lapping one anoth. Will look to see if I can separate the two to reduce the possible confusion this may create
+2 On Bendix and your casting information on the bottom of the main body would be different if it was a power disc brake or drum unit along with other details.
Markings are cast into the main body and visible from below the master cylinder the location and how they are arranged differed depending on when they were made.
Here is a likely 68 example (came out of a reported 68 San Jose car) though its very likely NOT a drum brake application, just to show the details
To the left the Julian date code, the Bendix logo, then the identifying Bendix number
(https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/17/6-140722232125-1759814.jpeg)
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So here is the bottom of my master cylinder showing casting number of 2227451 and what appears to be a date code of 328
Is the date code decoded as March 2, 1968 or is it a Julian date which would mean it's a November date?
That being said, I think my cap should look like the one pictured here too.
I look to anyone to help confirm this for me. Thank you.
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So here is the bottom of my master cylinder showing casting number of 2227451 and what appears to be a date code of 328
Is the date code decoded as March 2, 1968 or is it a Julian date which would mean it's a November date?
As stated believe its a Julian date. We see a change from traditional (or what ever its called) to Julian during 66 production as shown and discussed in another thread and in the article on date coding in the Library
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So here is the bottom of my master cylinder showing casting number of 2227451 and what appears to be a date code of 328
Is the date code decoded as March 2, 1968 or is it a Julian date which would mean it's a November date?
That being said, I think my cap should look like the one pictured here too.
I look to anyone to help confirm this for me. Thank you.
Do not think it is original because there is no screw in the bottom. Most likely a service replacement.
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Argh... not surprised. So is that casting number not one that could have originally been on the car? It seems to fit the date range. Are there any pictures of the original master cylinder? What are the id numbers for the original one and does that really matter for a concours car? Never ceases to amaze me the things that were changed for a car that had significantly less than 100k miles on it. What does that tell you?
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Argh... not surprised. Are there any pictures of the original master cylinder? What are the id numbers for the original one and does that really matter for a concours car? Never ceases to amaze me the things that were changed for a car that had significantly less than 100k miles on it. What does that tell you?
Brake parts degrade over a period of 10 - 12 years so that is the likely window it was replaced the first time in the past 50+ years. Probably it has been replaced several times by now.
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That's good to know and I figured that except my car only had 80k ish miles so I wouldn't expect the master cylinder to need to be replaced even given that old technology. Are you saying that time is the evil of these parts demanding that they need to be replaced regardless? But what would have been the casting number of the one originally installed in the car and are there any pictures please?
PS granted I'm having my 2016 f150 master cylinder replaced now due to a recall.
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I checked our unrestored 68 HCS tonight and it has the same master cylinder you have. No surprise that it has been changed it has 156K on it.
If yours is in good working order, I would not worry about it in a concours driven class. I would suggest you find a correct cap.
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Thank you. I have one coming from ebay. It's the same type one as my earlier post but not what Jeff had pictured previously. Should I try to get the one Jeff pictured or the one that goes on the bendix MC I currently have but without the vent on top?
Curious that if both of our master cylinders were changed we ended up with the same replacement. Was Bendix the only provider of master cylinders for ford and mustangs at the time? Seems like there are quite a few manufacturers now.
I guess I was hoping to determine exactly what was first installed on my car and others of the same year and time frame.
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I believe that the original assembly line Master cylinders have the screw in the bottom like in Jeffs #24 post. I have one but it has the hex screw that makes me think it is a 67 or early 68. I need to clean it up to find the date code.
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That's good to know and I figured that except my car only had 80k ish miles so I wouldn't expect the master cylinder to need to be replaced even given that old technology. Are you saying that time is the evil of these parts demanding that they need to be replaced regardless? But what would have been the casting number of the one originally installed in the car and are there any pictures please?
PS granted I'm having my 2016 f150 master cylinder replaced now due to a recall.
Mileage has nothing to do with it. Brake fluid Dot 3 eats rubber over time.
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Mileage has nothing to do with it. Brake fluid Dot 3 eats rubber over time.
+1 . All rubber is not made equal ether. Some batches of rubber do not cure properly significantly shortening its working life. A example is NOS power boosters sitting on the shelf for 30-50 years commonly fail out of the box or shortly after because the rubber diaphragm inside fails. Others are fine. I will buy a recent rebuilt one (from competent rebuilder) before buying a NOS one all things being equal. I have had rubber brake boot parts turn into goo over time others are perfectly fine. This is regardless of MFG from what I have seen.
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Back to the master cylinder. At Birmingham I got dinged for a silver cap and not black. Before I paint the cap I have or get a second cap to paint black, I just wanted to confirm that silver cap for my car is correct as I thought we decided in earlier posts on this thread.
The MCA grading sheet gives black or zinc dichromate as the options, not silver.
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Back to the master cylinder. At Birmingham I got dinged for a silver cap and not black. Before I paint the cap I have or get a second cap to paint black, I just wanted to confirm that silver cap for my car is correct as I thought we decided in earlier posts on this thread.
The MCA grading sheet gives black or zinc dichromate as the options, not silver.
Not sure were the group came to that conclusion (caps not being black with the rest of the master cylinder) but IMHO and from experience they should be painted as a unit black with cap to reduce the chance of the master cylinders rusting while in Fords control. On power brake cars the master cylinder and booster were painted as a unit - together
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Not sure were the group came to that conclusion (caps not being black with the rest of the master cylinder) but IMHO and from experience they should be painted as a unit black with cap to reduce the chance of the master cylinders rusting while in Fords control. On power brake cars the master cylinder and booster were painted as a unit - together
Jeff, he said that he got dinged for the cap "not" being black. To add, underneath the black paint it should be silver for 68. When the bail wire is un clamped and clamped like during pre delivery to check fluid level inevitably the black paint gets scratched. Underneath the black paint silver should show through.
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Back to the master cylinder. At Birmingham I got dinged for a silver cap and not black. Before I paint the cap I have or get a second cap to paint black, I just wanted to confirm that silver cap for my car is correct as I thought we decided in earlier posts on this thread.
The MCA grading sheet gives black or zinc dichromate as the options, not silver.
They are all (front disc brake) painted black . 65-67 the caps were zinc dichromate before being painted black . 68 up the caps were zinc silver before being painted black.
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The 67-68 rules say on manual brakes Semi gloss black or zinc-dichromate. I would assume that would be the entire master cylinder and cap. The rules were changes some time ago to also except natural manual cylinder and caps. That would be better verbiage than calling out just the 67 zinc-dichromate, as how it seems to end up in the rules. I have seen a number of natural master cylinders on manual unrestored cars including my car.
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So I'll have to paint the top and hold down wire black. I think I can spray paint it black in place while masking off the area to avoid overspray.
I did find a picture from 2020 after I purchased the car of the master cylinder cap and wire. Sure does look black. Might this be an original cap? The cap is also pictured in my post #6.
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The 67-68 rules say on manual brakes Semi gloss black or zinc-dichromate. I would assume that would be the entire master cylinder and cap. The rules were changes some time ago to also except natural manual cylinder and caps. That would be better verbiage than calling out just the 67 zinc-dichromate, as how it seems to end up in the rules. I have seen a number of natural master cylinders on manual unrestored cars including my car.
I get tunnel vision sometimes thinking everyone is thinking about disc brake cars and so I amended my post to reflect the lids I have a high confidence level about. The manual drum brake cars I am not so sure about other then the 67 lid color is gold to start and 68 silver .