ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1966 Mustang => Topic started by: Pete Bush on June 23, 2010, 08:19:42 PM
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I was using Mr. Marti's book to decipher my Metuchen Buck Tag, but I'm unsure about the meaning of the top line.
c/o 18
I'm reading Marti's pgs. 12-15 about customer ordered vehicles, and his statement at the top of pg. 136 about a "D" and "c/o" being for "internal plant use only". He doesn't come out and specifically state that the "D" stands for dealer prepared, or the "c/o" stands for customer ordered. One could almost make that assumption,however. Is this how I might interpret that line? If so the "18" next to it would indicate the number of such prepared vehicles worked on that day?
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I was using Mr. Marti's book to decipher my Metuchen Buck Tag, but I'm unsure about the meaning of the top line.
c/o 18
I'm reading Marti's pgs. 12-15 about customer ordered vehicles, and his statement at the top of pg. 136 about a "D" and "c/o" being for "internal plant use only". He doesn't come out and specifically state that the "D" stands for dealer prepared, or the "c/o" stands for customer ordered. One could almost make that assumption,however. Is this how I might interpret that line? If so the "18" next to it would indicate the number of such prepared vehicles worked on that day?
Interesting. My 67 Metuchen coupe has a D 103. I am not sure what exactly you mean by "dealer prepared" or "custom ordered" but on the Marti report the order type is listed as Retail. Dont know if that offers any insight.
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I've seen many original examples where the order type on a build sheet was inconsistent with the 'D' or 'c/o' stamping on the buck tag. I agree with Kevin that it was an internal code, but I have not heard or been able to come up with anything definitive.
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+1 on c/o and D...nothing to apply logic to.
18 represents the rotation number (1-999). The rotation number was not necessarily restarted every day or on every shift.
IMO, the number may have represented the rotation sequence number for build-up based on the grouping of cars released from order for production. Meaning Ford may have released 492 cars at one time from order for assembly at a given assembly plant. The number was not unique to just mustangs but any line(s) at an assembly plant. Thus, the rotation number would have been between 1 and 491. The next order release may have been 200 cars thus, the numbers 1-199 would have been used...
Regards,
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That's an interesting theory, never thought of it that way!
Would you happen to have any buck tag examples of 2 cars from the same day? Surely you do!
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IMO, the number may have represented the rotation sequence number for build-up based on the grouping of cars released from order for production. Meaning Ford may have released 492 cars at one time from order for assembly at a given assembly plant............................. Thus, the rotation number would have been between 1 and 491. The next order release may have been 200 cars thus, the numbers 1-199 would have been used...
Interesting but it conflicts with what at least one plant manager told me in an interview. Of course he could be mistaken - will have to ask some others
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On my 66 coupe, ordered by my father, not dealer stock. Shows c/o on buck tag.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2h8bm7r.jpg)
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I think it's pretty safe to say that the c/o or D do not relate to the order type as we have found too many inconsistencies to disprove it.
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I think it's pretty safe to say that the c/o or D do not relate to the order type as we have found too many inconsistencies to disprove it.
Charles,
Since discovering the 1968 Order Sheet you posted the other day, I've been curious about your statement above. The Order Sheet uses three main codes:
1 = Retail (a customer order)
2 = Stock (a Dealer)
5 = Fleet (a customer order with multiple units)
The 68 Order Sheet then goes on to further break down these three classifications into subsets of these main types. These can be read in two groups of codes. The first group of codes are:
3 C L 4 7 8
The second group of codes are:
A B D G H J K M N P R S T V X Y Z
I believe that these codes provide a more unique classification of the three major codes Retail, Stock, and Fleet. For instance, a "L" might stand for a car purchased by a Ford employee (just an example here, not fact). To-date I have actual copies of build sheets with Order Types 1, 2, 5, and C. It's interesting to note that the "C" code is a second tier code.
My point being: all of these codes, regardless of the level of detail they provide, can really be summed up with two designations - at the time of building, either there was a retail customer involved, or the car went to stock inventory (and no sale was registered). Now, you say that the two codes on buck sheets of c/o and D do not mean customer order and dealer because of "inconsistencies". My question is: what are these inconsistencies?
If, for instance, you have a copy of a car's build sheet that has an order type 1, and the build sheet has a D, then that is certainly a contradiction in assumed meanings. The same is true if the build sheet has a 2 but the buck tag has a c/o. However, if the build sheet has a 5 and the buck tag has a c/o it still might be correct if we understand that a Fleet sale is simply a multiple unit retail customer.
So when you are saying that there are inconsistencies, can you elaborate on what those are? Your findings might further help my decoding process. :)
Thanks,
Pete
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Seen marti reports that conflict with the c/o and D on the buck tags. Think about it though, why would a buck tag have a notation for an order type? There is no need at all for it as related to the build process of the car. Cars would be scheduled for build based on availability of parts and priority. A buck tag is a "helper" plate that called out options. Not all assembly plants used it, so maybe Metuchen had a quality control problem where buck tags were used.
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Cars would be scheduled for build based on availability of parts and priority.
I agree with this statement, and it's the basis for taking another look at the whole c/o and D issue. Ford was in the car-building business to make money. Therefore, the highest priority for them is a "sold" car - as it immediately generates cash flow as soon as the customer takes delivery. A "sold" car is likely to receive priority over a stock vehicle. It still is today:
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f61/ford-dealer-discusses-orders-allocation-19747/ The buck tag might simply have reinforced that message (the car was already sold) to line works, to expedite the build/sale process.
However, if you've seen Marti Reports where the c/o on the buck tag has a 2 on the build sheet, or the D on the buck tag has a 1 on the build sheet, then that would shoot down my theory and I'll have to re-think it! ;)
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From a factory line worker's perspective, it would make no difference to them. It would be the responsibility of plant management to schedule the build of cars. While sold cars may have had priority, I don't think it was as important. Just last year I helped a friend in Germany order a new F150. It took over 2 months for it to get built and delivered. It was a $50k truck too.
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It sure is exasperating! Just when you think you have a little piece of Ford figured out, they go and do something totally illogical. ::)
Well, perhaps the link I provided will give you some insight on how dealer allocation might explain a two month lead time on a new F-150.
I'm sure the hot selling streak that the early Mustangs produced would have strained Ford distribution systems to the max!
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However, if you've seen Marti Reports where the c/o on the buck tag has a 2 on the build sheet, or the D on the buck tag has a 1 on the build sheet, then that would shoot down my theory and I'll have to re-think it! ;)
I thought I'd update this thread. I now have in my possession two photos concerning a Metuchen April built Fastback - one is of the buck tag and one is of the build sheet. The buck tag shows a "D" while the build sheet shows a "1" (which stands for customer order). This proves to me that the "D" does not stand for dealer. I'm still unsure at this point what the significance of the "c/o" and "D" were.
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I thought I'd update this thread. I now have in my possession two photos concerning a Metuchen April built Fastback - one is of the buck tag and one is of the build sheet. The buck tag shows a "D" while the build sheet shows a "1" (which stands for customer order). This proves to me that the "D" does not stand for dealer. I'm still unsure at this point what the significance of the "c/o" and "D" were.
Myself and others have been trying to tell folks that for years now. Glad you are convinced, now we have another one on our side! ;-)
Would encourage you to keep looking into it, you might find something we all missed and be able to solve the meaning of the codes.
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Just thinking outside the box here...
Is there any evidence that once a buck tag was screwed on, it stayed there?
More specifically, did the buck tag start out with just a few characters stamped, then screwed to the car, to be removed, more characters stamped at other spots on the line, and then screwed back on?
If the ENTIRE buck tag was stamped and it was totally complete before being installed, that would show one purpose.
If the buck tag was progressively completed along the line as the car was built, being removed/stamped/replaced several times, that would show another purpose.
If the progressive process was possible, the tag could be used while removed to "IMPRINT" a paper document for record keeping, like an old-time credit card imprinter.
I know some tags have different shaped holes punched through, like the "get your 10th movie rental free" card. It would not make sense for these holes to be done in the beginning?
The tag would have to be off the car to be punched by an employee with their own unique punch?
Here's some "possible" phrases for the c/o symbol: CARRY/OVER C-GROUP OF/OPTIONS any other ideas anyone?
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Is there any evidence that once a buck tag was screwed on, it stayed there?
"Evidence"??? Not sure what that would be either way - removing and reinstalling would risk stripping out the hole IMHO and we would then seen multiple moutning holes which we do not
More specifically, did the buck tag start out with just a few characters stamped, then screwed to the car, to be removed, more characters stamped at other spots on the line, and then screwed back on?
If you look at those punches they are often on corners or area where they could be punched while attached to the car IMHO as for the stamping they all line up orderly and I would suspect that if stamped at different times we would see some misalignment on some tags. In addition if they served the purpose that has been offered to us then they were their to guide the build process not take inventory of tsaks.
I know some tags have different shaped holes punched through, like the "get your 10th movie rental free" card. It would not make sense for these holes to be done in the beginning?
From our understanding from workers they were not there at the start but liked other inspection processes on the line they were done after certain processes or steps were completed. The edge of the tag can be lifted slightly (they are often found bent slightly on their mounting screw or rotated for clearance
The tag would have to be off the car to be punched by an employee with their own unique punch?
Nope - Not IMHO
Here's some "possible" phrases for the c/o symbol: CARRY/OVER C-GROUP OF/OPTIONS any other ideas anyone?
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Common thought at one point was Customer Order - identifying cars that had and order and money down (customer waiting) rather than a car built to fill a lot. Also consider that the codes on these tags did not always make sense (letters representing words) accordign to line managers as they reported just making up codes rather than being "all fancy and such"
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The buck tag would have been installed very early on as original examples will show no paint on the bottom. So, they were attached sometime around the unibody welding process. The codes are there to help workers identify options that may require modification to the unibody. As Jeff mentions, the inspector punch-outs would have been done as the car progressed down the line and might not have necessarily been tied to anything on the buck tag. Might have just been a way for certain inspectors to mark a certain check. On Dearborn cars, sometimes we see a thin metal tab hanging off the lip of the cowl in the engine bay. Have observed these with the same type of inspector punch-out designs used on buck tags.
I agree with Jeff that I don't think the tags were removed anytime during the build process once installed. They might have been spun around on the screw to make the inspector punches (if present) or just pulled up and done on the corners as mentioned. We don't see many 65-66 that look like the corners were bent up, so they were probably just spun around. Which would explain the orientation of the screw close to the edge of the inner fender panel.
I haven't looked into the D/'c/o' codes in a while, but just to make sure, they aren't tied to any particular body style are they? A sampling of buck tags might help identify some trends.
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Ok guys... this thread really got me thinking.
I am holding my buck-tag in my hand. Here's some observations made by inspecting ONLY MY TAG, with a magnifying glass.
* ALL of the LETTERING was done at the same time because it is in perfect alignment
* My tag has 3 geometric punches, an equilateral triangle, a shape that looks like a fox's snout and ears, and a shape like an indian
tee-pee with smoke coming out the top and going to the right. The triangle is 1/4 inch from the right side and in line with
the VIN. The tee-pee is 1/2 inch from the right side and in line with the 4th line of text. The fox snout is 3/4 inch from the left and
in line with the 4th line of text. It looks like these punches were done by hand because they are slightly out of alignment and tilted in
different directions. IMHO, thre's no way these could be punched with the tag screwed in place or rotated, with a durable
punch device that was of heavy enough construction to be used for hundreds if not thousandes of times. Again, IMHO, I think the tags
were stamped out very early but not SCREWED to the car yet. The tag could have been attached to the build sheet or hung on the car
with a lanyard or similar. Another thing that makes me think they were not punched after being screwed down is the fact that no-one
has found a "chad" (remember hanging chads from the Bush/Gore election in Florida?) trapped under their buck tag on an original car.
I think there would have been found some by now.
Here's the only 100% factual information that we can put in the definite column:
1) The tags were stamped very early in production all characters at the same time.
2) They were screwed to the car SOMETIME before engine bay blackout paint was applied.
3) The face only, of the tag, and the hold-down screw got painted.
Here's some debatable information, even pure speculation:
1) The tags MAY have been screwed down just before engine bay paint.
2) If so, the "inspection" ?? punches would pertain only to things up to that point in assembly.
3) All the options and details stamped into the tag could NOT be deviated from once assembly started.
4) The geometric shape punches would have probably been a pretty heavy tool and maybe even air powered.
5) A person on each shift was probably THE buck-tag man who manually typed in the lettering to be stamped. He would be
reading a document that had been printed from the old computer. This MAY have been the build sheet?
6) When a skid came along with buck car on it, a worker probably grabbed a buck tag, and attached it to the buck somehow.
7) Was part of the markal info, that is written on bare metal of the core-support copied from the buck tag?
Anyone care to add pieces to the puzzle in my sure and not-so-sure columns?