ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: carlite65 on October 22, 2010, 07:41:55 PM
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NOTE: As of Oct 14, 2022 this thread is a merging of three earlier threads to collect and preserve the information contained in them in one thread
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i drug in a 65 2+2 yesterday. it is an A-code car. dso of st. louis build date of 30K. it has a road draft tube in the valve cover. not sure if this is the original engine. now my 65 289 build date 23K is a C-code but it has a pcv system. the dso on that one is louisville. both are dearborn cars. my question is why the later build would have a tube & not a pcv? was this possible?? i may consider switching it over to pcv depending on how it runs. this car will only ever be an occasional driver & not concours.......thoughts welcomed please.
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I have worked on some cars produced in October of 1964 that had road draft tubes and others had PCV. I would look at the build date on the block to see how close it is to the build date on the warranty plate. This will help to determine if the engine has been changed. I looked in my 1965 Ford parts book and it states Tube Assy. Crankcase Ventilation (without emission reduction) part # C20Z-6758-A. The book has a January 1965 production date. Some things that Ford did didn't make sense.
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Fred-
I'm not sure what determined whether a car received a PVC or road draft tube but I believe they were both used simultaneously and quoting from Bob Mannel's book, "In 1964 these road draft systems were installed on some engines after about May 25, 1964" and later he adds "Stricter laws on smog control caused the road draft tubes to be phased out by about March 1965". Hope this sheds a little light.
Greg
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i know they were both used at the same period.....wonder if the dso was a factor??
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I had an October '64 Dearborn convertible, C code. It had a road draft tube.
Have no idea what determined if a car had it or didn't.
Personally, given the choice where either would be acceptable as "correct", I would have to go with a PCV system. Road draft systems are notorious for causing sludge build up in a motor.
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W/Manual
C5ZF-A
C5ZF-G W/Road draft tube which I wouldn't expect on an Oct car
W/Automatic
C5ZF-B
C5ZF-H W/Road draft tube which I wouldn't expect on an Oct car
So Jeff, was wanting to get more info on the above regarding road draft carbs on Oct 64 cars. Is there a reason not to expect a road draft tube on an Oct 64 car...or did you mean Oct 65? The poster's car is Oct 64. If not, was this for non-hipos or just haven't seen many?
Reason I ask is my Oct 64 SJ hipo has the road draft carb (C5OF-L) and non-drilled carb spacer (i.e. no PCV), although the draft tube was missing when I got it. Always assumed it was a road draft tube car due to carb and spacer.
Also know of other Oct 64 and later road draft tube cars.
pcv vs. road draft tube http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=1927.msg9829#msg9829 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=1927.msg9829#msg9829)
Thanks,
Rich
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Just to be clear, when I purchased my car in 1979, there were virtually no remnants of any original engine parts on the car, except for maybe the throttle linkage, motor mounts and PS system. So I really have no idea if it was originally PCV or road draft. It was PCV when I purchased the car and things I have read over the years led me to believe it was probably PCV originally, so that's the path I went with. Plus the PCV setup works better.
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My car has a 29k build date and has PCV setup. Of course it has factory AC as well. Don't know if that factors in and it was also sent to DSO 71.
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My 65 Dearborn built Fastback has an approximate build date of September 2, 1964. It has a PVC setup. No draft tube.
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Earliest C5OF-L tag I have is dated 4th week Aug 1964 and latest 2nd week Feb '65. If you have one outside of that range to share please let me know! The C4OF-AL (for PCV) was used from April '64 to March '65 you can see by the overlap between the two its not date specific to road draft versus PCV on the HiPo's but destination from my understanding.
I can beat that....my C5OF-L tag is dated 4FE, 5th week of June 1964. It's on a C4OF-AL body (all C5OF-L's I've read about so far were on C4OF-AL bodies) and came with my San Jose K code with build date Oct 9, 1964. Has all the correct internals.
The DSO on the car is 61, Dallas. Both the heads (July 64) and carb (June 64) are a little early for this car, so I suppose it is possible they were swapped sometime in the past. I also know things were quite hectic at that time with production trying to keep up with demand, so could be original. The block, intake, dampner, flywheel, radiator etc are all dated in the Aug - Oct 64 range.
Don't know if this helps with the PCV vs draft tube pattern. There are multiple Oct 64 cars mentioned in thread below with draft tubes...
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=1927.msg9829#msg9829 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=1927.msg9829#msg9829)
A Feb 6 build date K code out of Seattle (DSO 74) with road draft tube is mentioned here:
http://www.hipomustang.com/hpmx/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1671&p=8605&hilit=draft+tube#p8605 (http://www.hipomustang.com/hpmx/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1671&p=8605&hilit=draft+tube#p8605)
Jeff, you may want to break this off into a seperate PCV vs draft tube thread.
Thanks,
Rich
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So Jeff, was wanting to get more info on the above regarding road draft carbs on Oct 64 cars. Is there a reason not to expect a road draft tube on an Oct 64 car...or did you mean Oct 65? The poster's car is Oct 64. If not, was this for non-hipos or just haven't seen many?
Basically because I've seen a fair number of October 64 v8s without the draft tubes. Unfortunately in many of the pictures I have they do not show the area at the back of the passenger side valve cover - so many have the air cleaner blocking the clear view of that area. I do have examples also of draft tubes on cars into the 1700000 which seems odd to me also
But as the other thread reports - members have seen them both ways and I guess we're still at a lost as to why (if there is a reason or if its just to use up the earlier versions and move on to the improved) one car one style while another got the other
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Going to try and merge the last half of this tread with the other thread on the subject
Reply #5 on is from a second thread that was merged with the earlier one
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My current Dearborn Built '65, DSO 61, had its Engine stamped with an early December Date Code 4M7V, which I understand to mean December 4, 1964...it has a Road Draft Tube - surprised me when I first saw it.
I had another '65 6 Cylinder, DSO 31, built in the same month, but it had a PCV Valve. At the time, I didn't think anything of it as that is all I'd ever seen. Unfortunately, my photo record of that Engine is minimal so I have no good way to make any comparisons between the two that would give me an indication of why a Draft Tube on one and a PCV Valve on the other.
Maybe Ford found a pile of unused Draft Tubes and was just using them up or maybe they ran short on PCV Valves, or was there an Elevation above Sea Level Issue, or did Doc and Marty travel back to1964 and crash into the PCV Valve Factory...who knows.
Ray
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DSO 61 is Dallas. You would have to determine what the vehicle code at that time required for Texas.
Jim
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Is there any rhyme or reason as to what cars came equipped with the down draft tube/ closed valve covers? My June 64' coupe has the downdraft pipe and front timing cover oil fill.
Would guess the DSO of the car makes the difference even in 64
NOTE - Split from another discussion
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My car has a DSO of 26, Washington D.C., and was sold new at King's Ford in Essex Maryland around July 4th 1964. I am the second owner and had the original title in hand when I went to get it titled in my name. It has the date correct block, heads, intake, etc.. So it is likely that the timing cover, valve covers, and downdraft tube are original to the car. I never understood why some cars during this time had the down draft tube and others didn't. :o
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My car has a DSO of 26, Washington D.C., and was sold new at King's Ford in Essex Maryland around July 4th 1964. I am the second owner and had the original title in hand when I went to get it titled in my name. It has the date correct block, heads, intake, etc.. So it is likely that the timing cover, valve covers, and downdraft tube are original to the car. I never understood why some cars during this time had the down draft tube and others didn't. :o
Do you know the DSO of the other car your comparing yours too? There were a couple north eastern states and Calif that had higher standards even in 64 that related to emission from my understanding. That and running changes in the early part of production are likely the reason for the differences
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No other DSO's I can confirm at the moment, but the example in this thread (AOW Mustang) sounds as if it was from Philadelphia (DSO 17 I believe?) and does not have the down draft set up. Maybe other 64' members will chime in with their DSO and configurations?
With running changes I tend to wonder if down draft set-ups were being phased out and "used up" on the Mustang production line as well as others, Fairlane, etc..?
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Maybe other 64' members will chime in with their DSO and configurations?
Mine is a LA (DSO 71) car that didn't have the draft tube but the manifold wasn't original to the car so not 100%, the timing over is original and doesn't have the oil filler tube.
Would like to know if anyone else with LA D code car has a down tube?
I sourced a correct date coded manifold and there's no attachment for it at the rear of the intake.
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Mine is a LA (DSO 71) car that didn't have the draft tube but the manifold wasn't original to the car so not 100%, the timing over is original and doesn't have the oil filler tube.
Would like to know if anyone else with LA D code car has a down tube?
I sourced a correct date coded manifold and there's no attachment for it at the rear of the intake.
When was your car projected to be built and or the engine assembly date? Would help narrow down the search and give us more details as we discuss the details
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Bob Mannel states that the change took place May 25, 1964, (June 1, 1964 for Comet). He mentions that the road draft tubes (called "non-emission reduction" systems) were installed where still allowed.
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........ He mentions that the road draft tubes (called "non-emission reduction" systems) were installed where still allowed.
Not sure what that means ::)
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Not sure what that means ::)
It means that certain DSO's, also certain states and certain areas of states, did not require a PCV system for that time frame, or had implementation dates that were further out in time.
Jim
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It means that certain DSO's, also certain states and certain areas of states, did not require a PCV system for that time frame, or had implementation dates that were further out in time.
Jim
Guess he should have written "were still required"
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I'm guessing Maryland was lax on emissions at that time period?? My car's build date was supposed to be June 30th, 1964. This seems late according to the info provided from Mannel's book, then again, unless they were using the parts up on cars going to states where these parts "were still allowed". :o
Attached are some pics such as the door data plate (I still have the original plate if you need that pic) and engine/head cast dates and assembly date to show the time frame of my car.
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Having some issues posting multiple pics... here are the others.
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Having some issues posting multiple pics... here are the others.
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When was your car projected to be built and or the engine assembly date? Would help narrow down the search and give us more details as we discuss the details
Jeff, projected build date was 3/24/64, engine block cast date 3/19/64 (4C19)
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I have San Jose built 13G D code with San Jose DSO, PCV and hose from oil fill cap to the side of the air cleaner (closed emissions). It uses the screw-on adapter for the oil fill cap hose attachment to the air cleaner. My understanding is that the late May 64 change back to road draft setup was not implemented in California at all. Tough call on actual build date since I don't have the build sheet, but the car has a very low VIN.
None of the 64 1/2 K codes got road draft tubes - I established with Bob Mannell that the rear of the intake mounted road draft tube interferes with the Hipo exhaust manifolds - in fact it comes down right in the middle of where the exhaust manifold outlet is. (Bob has since made a change to the supplemental change notes in the his small block Ford book on this subject.) In addition, the 64 1/2 K code used the C4OF BT carb according to Ford literature, but the late Jon Enyeart of Pony Carbeurators told me back in the late 2000s that he had never seen a C4OF BT. I am aware of some early 65 K codes (including Fairlane) that have the later K code road draft tube mounted on the RH valve cover where the PCV would otherwise go, but they have the C5 hipo carb on them.
-Scott
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My D-Code with build date 6 July, DSO 75 Phoenix, has also the road draft system. Intake manifold casting number is C50E-9425-A. According to Bob Mannels book this should be correct for a late D-Code car.
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Curious what the casting date is on your intake??
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casting date is 4G7, July 7 1964 right?
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Correct, thanks. One week after mine.
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Road draft tube when did it change to a pcv.
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Road draft tube when did it change to a pcv.
I think 65, but the use of a road draft tube was also based on DSO.
Jim
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I think 65, but the use of a road draft tube was also based on DSO.
Jim
One data point on road draft tubes.....my 09K SJ hipo Fastback came with a C50F-L carb and non-drilled out carb spacer. Both were for a road draft car, and owner claimed they were both original to the car. It didn't come with the fabled hipo road draft tube though. :'( Also, car is DSO 61 (Dallas) and engine build stamp is Oct 18, 1964.
Hope that helps.
Rich
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Reason i asked my Feb 65 NJ dso Richmond car came with a valve cover mounted road draft tube in the boxes of parts i kent with it. engine was sold before I bought the car in 87
ken