ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: Chris on January 11, 2019, 11:47:05 PM
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The early cobra kits (various induction and dress up kits) advertised for 65-66 mustangs came with round 2-inch medallions for mounting on the car, believe on the fender below the engine size badge.
Does anyone know how to identify an original cobra dress up kit medallion? There are a number on eBay that range from $30 to $100 individually that look the same, marked with the Ford part number on the back. Here is one example on eBay now: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mint-1963-Shelby-Cobra-Roadster-hood-emblem-Medallion/362527891650?epid=5025706676&hash=item546858a0c2:g:e4oAAOSwhnhb5dW4 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mint-1963-Shelby-Cobra-Roadster-hood-emblem-Medallion/362527891650?epid=5025706676&hash=item546858a0c2:g:e4oAAOSwhnhb5dW4)
I wonder if the originals have Ford or FoMoCo oval markings? The only markings on these on eBay are: C3RA-14225-A / 5508-C
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Some more background on the Ford dealer cobra kits attached. I have the early cobra valve covers (without oil fill hole or PCV ventilation hole) and the 6v tripower. Looking to find one of the original cobra medallions like described and shown on the Ford advertisement.
The Ford High Performance catalog listing the medallions says they can be mounted anywhere, see attached pic.
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And some more. I don't believe that these ever came "intentionally" with any of the "Engine Dress-Up Kits".
Bob
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Right, not the “dress up kits” but the performance enhancement kits listed in the Ford High Performance brochure shown in your last pic. Those kits listed had 2 medallions per cobra kit that would come with the kit.
The question is, how to determine which are original? Unfortunately, the cobra medallions shown in the literature only show the front side of the medallion and not the reverse. The part number for the medallions is specified but not if markings and part numbers were placed on the back side of the medallions.
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The question is, how to determine which are original? Unfortunately, the cobra medallions shown in the literature only show the front side of the medallion and not the reverse. The part number for the medallions is specified but not if markings and part numbers were placed on the back side of the medallions.
Yes, I too would like to know. I have never seen a "documented" original pair to answer that question.
Possibly Bob Perkins can enlighten us all on this ?
Bob
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Here is the one I got off eBay a couple of days ago, just arrived, was not shown in the bag on the eBay listing. The bag is sealed with the Official Ford Liscensed Product tag on the front, so this medallion would be an official reproduction/release by Ford but not an NOS original. I was unaware of Ford releasing these again, an official Ford liscensed version. That’s what this one looks to be. It looks to be very good quality and nicely done.
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Try reaching out to Brant at VA Mustang. This car they restored is one of the few I can think of that has the emblems http://blog.virginiaclassicmustang.com/2011/04/early-1965-mustang-289-hipo-convertible_20.html?m=1
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Here is the one I got off eBay a couple of days ago, just arrived, was not shown in the bag on the eBay listing. The bag is sealed with the Official Ford Liscensed Product tag on the front, so this medallion would be an official reproduction/release by Ford but not an NOS original. I was unaware of Ford releasing these again, an official Ford liscensed version. That’s what this one looks to be. It looks to be very good quality and nicely done.
FYI just because it is an official Ford licensed version doesn't guarantee the item what ever it might be to be a faithful reproduction of the original. Ford is more interested in the fees it seems rather then careful reproduction. Their criteria is very loose I am told and as some other licensed items seem to indicate. It is all over the spectrum. It is up to the mfg to follow through with the exactness effort.
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Right, I agree. The only reproduction cobra emblem out there that I could find showing liscensed by Ford is the one by Scott Drake at the Drake Automotive site. That one is made by the original cobra emblem manufacturer:
http://www.drakeautomotivegroup.com/Store/Product/C3RA-14225-A.aspx?wid=141 (http://www.drakeautomotivegroup.com/Store/Product/C3RA-14225-A.aspx?wid=141)
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(http://i66.tinypic.com/5me78g.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/10zbitc.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2yttloi.jpg)
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Very cool kit Bob - Thanks
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Yes, thanks Bob! I’ve never seen an actual Cobra kit or original Cobra kit medallions.
Now we know that a big distinction between the reproduction medallion from the original OEM and the NOS or used originals is the FoMoCo oval and triangle symbol on originals but not reproductions...guessing the additional triangle symbol is the manufacturer’s mark.
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Bob : Thanks for "coming through" and educating all of us. I just knew you could help.
Besides making us all aware of the "true" Cobra medallions, the picture you Posted of the 1967 Engine Dress-up Kit helps me in my work on an Article about the Engine Dress-up Kits. So "double thanks" from me.
Bob
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Your welcome,
Bob
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Yes, thanks Bob! I’ve never seen an actual Cobra kit or original Cobra kit medallions.
Now we know that a big distinction between the reproduction medallion from the original OEM and the NOS or used originals is the FoMoCo oval and triangle symbol on originals but not reproductions...guessing the additional triangle symbol is the manufacturer’s mark.
Yes very cool . If you compare the front of the medallion side by side between the genuine and the reproduction there is typically a difference too.
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Very interesting detail about Bob P's Cobra Kit, the part number shows it's for a the 1967 model year, correct? Well, the air cleaner cover shown, including the Cobra sticker and smaller air filter sticker, are also correct for what would have been found on a small block 67 Shelby, yet the valve covers wouldn't be. Why do you think they didn't just use the later closed lettered style painted groves version as found on '67 Shelby's? I understand Shelby American and Ford were two different entities with respect to manufacturing, but one might think that the appeal of a kit like this is for the average Mustang owner to be able to 'upgrade' his engine in performance and looks to the corresponding Shelby from that year. Thoughts?
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As a 67 Shelby owner that's the first thing I saw too.
Catering to early Mustang owners with just a slight nod to the later cars with the air cleaner?
It is certainly confusing.
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I also have an NOS Cobra kit but my contents are quite different than Bob’s. Mine contains a hi-po distributor, HP SX plug wires, the Cobra fender medallions, and a distributor cap. Distributor is dated 8/65. Also I’m a similar early box with fomoco logo and a Cobra sticker. Are there a few different kits?
Matt
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I also have an NOS Cobra kit but my contents are quite different than Bob’s.
Matt,
Do you have a Ford kit stock number? Several Cobra kits are listed in the 60-68 MPC.
Jim
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I also have an NOS Cobra kit but my contents are quite different than Bob’s. Mine contains a hi-po distributor, HP SX plug wires, the Cobra fender medallions, and a distributor cap. Distributor is dated 8/65. Also I’m a similar early box with fomoco logo and a Cobra sticker. Are there a few different kits?
Yes there were a number of "kits' that were made available through the performance part of the brand. Another that comes to mind is induction where you would get the intake and carb - had one on an original 66 K code that the original owner had installed at the dealer. Have a Norwegian Mustang book that was written years ago that has a bunch of pictures of a number of these kits in their original packaging. Interesting book though I can't read a lick of the text.
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I would like to try to address questions/ comments from the last Replies.
Bglover67 - 1) Yes, the C70Z Part Number is correct for 1967
2) I know that the Cobra Sticker is correct for '67 , but can't tell about the
smaller rectangular sticker, since zooming in ti try to read the number on it
only results in a big blur. I sent a PM to Bob P a few days ago asking for
clarification as to what number is printed on it.
3) On the Valve covers, I have several thoughts :
a) As Ford did with many parts, they exhausted existing inventory
before using the "new stuff".
b) Ford intentionally wanted the Dress Up Kit to appear different
than the 67 Shelby's. Remember, this same exact Kit and its
contents were marketed and sold for Falcons and Fairlanes also.
Why would I want my Falcon to resemble a Shelby ?
c) There was a Change made during the year, and Bob P's Kit was
an early Kit, and later Kits contain the solid letter Valve Covers.
Of course without a known later Kit, this is just speculation.
Although the idea of a Change may be valid, based on the
pictures you recently sent me of the # 029, 1967 Shelby. Note
the Valve Covers on the picture of the Engine Compartment in
the attached picture ? Of course I have no idea if that car is
original, or how # 029 fits into the time period, but interesting
nonetheless.
Of the 3 options presented, I am of the opinion that "b)" is the most
likely.
Bossbill - Since the same covers(lids) were used on the 65-67's, am I correct that your
"slight nod" refers to the "Cobra" sticker ?
21.04, jwc66k, J_Speegle - As far as other Cobra Kits that were available, if you zoom in
on my attachments # 1, 2, 5 and 7 in my Reply #2, you will
see listed "Other Cobra Kits Containing Cobra Medallions".
Note that this does not list the Kits that didn't contain the
the Cobra Medallions. Also note that there are no Engine
Dress Up Kits noted as containing the Cobra Medallions.
As my previous attachments were only 1965 and 1966, I
have included a copy of the contents description from the
"1967 Only" Parts and Accessories Catalog (single year
MPC), which does not show any Cobra Medallions as
being included. Yet, the picture that Bob P previously posted
shows them. Possibly Ford had an excess inventory of them,
ad figured that this was an easy way to deplete its inventory.
Finally, to show all of the Cobra Kits available in 1965,66 and
67, I am attaching the appropriate pages from the 1965 and
1966 High Performance Parts Catalogs. As I do not have, nor
know the existence if, a 1967 High Performance Parts Catalog,
I have attached a list if the Kits noted as "Cobra Kits" which I
compiled from the "1967 Only" MPC.
(Not enough room for all of the pictures, do several will ne in a "Continuation Posting)
Hope this helps.
Bob
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Pictures continued for Reply # 20
Bob
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from my notes...
Over the decades I have taken note of three different “COBRA” mascot emblems included in Cobra accessory induction kits. Which parts were used depended on what Shelby American was using at the time in new cars apparently.
S1CS-19523-B version 2, a Cobra production part during 1963 (not rare, offered as a service replacement until at least 1968) (note: There have been reproductions.)
S1CS-19523-C, a Cobra production part mid 1963 until mid 1965 (very rare not on an original Cobra) (note: There have been reproductions.)
C3RA-14225-A, a 427 Cobra production part and retail market accessory, at some point in early 427 Cobra production through 1967 (not rare as Ford sold countless numbers of them, however quality of details went down over time) (There have been way too many different reproductions of this type to count. There are reproductions of reproductions of reproductions in the replicar market.)
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/3276/S1CS-B_Type_2.jpg)
Ford advertising used pictures or artistic renderings of the S1CS-C emblem into 1966 and beyond. The advertisement might show S1CS-C art and the parts being packed at the time could get C3RA-A parts.
(http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/3276/medium/S1CS_vs_C3RA2.jpg)
"S1CS-19523-B Emblem, AC_Cobra 2 9/16" - as contracted by Mr. Shelby locally legend says and used on most west coast cars prior to at least CSX2133. A key feature of this part family was the new design had to be large enough to cover the holes in the coachwork or damage to paintwork left by removal of mascot emblems installed by AC Cars. The reason was simple, to eliminate the need to do metal and paint repair before installing S1CS-19523-B emblems where AC Cars mascots had been previously. There are three "original versions" of this part. The series started with smooth chrome plating and a rounded exterior edge, next was sharp corner exterior edge with brushed satin chrome plating, and finally a return to smooth chrome plating but this time the outer edge was left much sharper than that of the first version. Both the second and third versions were available as service parts well into 1968.
In the book COBRA PILOTE: THE ED HUGUS STORY it is claimed that the original rounded corner smooth chromium plated version was discontinued due to cost to be replaced by the brushed finish part. Why the third sharp cornered smooth chromium plated version was introduced is a mystery. (Cobra Kit Note: Some of the “COBRA” accessory induction kits Ford and Shelby sold, assembled by the contractor Dearborn Steel Tube, retail included a medallion kit comprised of two of these emblems and four Tinnerman® brand push on speed nuts. At some point Ford stopped including this part in induction system kits and started using the emblem that superseded it.)
"S1CS-19523-C Emblem, AC_Cobra" - as designed by Mr. Brock. Legend says Mr. Brock hated the S1CS-B part and that Mr. Shelby gave him the go ahead to design something he liked better. CSX2133 is the first chassis known to have received this third design. We only know that because CSX2133 was a press car used for promotional work and clear photos of emblems and the chassis number markings just happened to get published in a magazine road test article. (Cobra Kit Note: Some of the “COBRA” accessory induction kits Ford and Shelby sold, assembled by Dearborn Steel Tube, retail included a medallion kit comprised of two of these emblems and four Tinnerman brand push on speed nuts.)
”Ford C3RA-14225-A 2”. The C3RA-14225-A part was produced in a single cavity permanent mold by one of FoMoCo's trim suppliers at the time. It replaced the S1CS-19523-C part during 427 Cobra production and became the service part for all cars eventually. (Cobra Kit Note: Some of the “COBRA” accessory induction kits Ford and Shelby sold, assembled by Dearborn Steel Tube, retail included a medallion kit comprised of two of these emblems and four Tinnerman brand push on speed nuts.)
Just in case you are using new old stock emblems from a Cobra induction kit to replacement emblems on an original Cobra or 427 Cobra; I am 98% certain that the Tinnerman push on nuts supplied in kits were not the same ones used against the aluminum coachwork of Cobras. The kits nuts are usually dyed black phosphate and oil protected. The ones I removed from Cobras or still on unrestored cars were olive drab dichromate finished to go against bare aluminum.