ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: J_Speegle on July 23, 2019, 07:16:35 PM
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Working down the list of running changes that took place during 1967 production at San Jose as the title states we look at windshield washer reservoir change from plastic bag to opaque rigid tank.
Like 65 and 66 production started San Jose started out by installing a black plastic washer bag and bracket. Bracket was welded to the drivers side inner fender panel but differs from 65 & 66 in its design and shape. Here are three pictures to illustrate the typical installation
7R106xxxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-230719180527.jpeg)
7R1627xxxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-230719180547.jpeg)
7R1648xxxx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-230719180603.jpeg)
Then they changed to the hard plastic opaque reservoir attached to the drivers side inner fender panel with three hex head screws
7R2230xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-230719181106.jpeg)
And for the record the head markings found on this example. From 7R02S2072xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-230719181046.jpeg)
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With one of the largest samplings to date the change over point was pretty easy to see once all of the information was inserted into the tables. For all samplings I notate if the car appears to have been restored some time in the past and if there are any indications of possible repair to the area or panels (restored or not restored). Using the actual build date VINs are organized in order and for examples (in this case possibly only 30% of the sampling) those are placed with other similar groups of like sequential numbers) As in the past orphan findings (most often restored cars) are isolated and not included and with this a strong line exposed itself. Perfect - no. Best we currently have to go by IMHO yes.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-240719162109.jpeg)
So in terms of build date according to what I've collected and what has been submitted the range for the change over appears to be between March 29th through April 7th 1967.
Believe it might be down to two days but I have three restored cars built on the 5th through the 7th that create the possibility of the wider range. They each have the bag. Without these three the survey drops the possibility within a two day spread but just being safe at this point.
As for the possibility of both being installed on the line at the same time I believe that jumping back and forth between the welding of a bracket and not welding one on would only cause confusion and there was really no reason to since the unused earlier version/parts could be recycled back through the service parts channels as they did for damaged parts that arrived at the plant and at close out at the end of the production year.
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One of members needed one of these wiper bag clips, so I removed it from my parts car:
7R01C189340 Door Tag date 06C
since it has a bag.
The Shelby (date in sig) has a bag as well.
I'm 95% certain they both have single squirters, but I can't find them this minute.
Here is a pic of the one I removed and a link to an album with some dimensions.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wJGsZcxmbBz1xXqM6
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One of members needed one of these wiper bag clips, so I removed it from my parts car:
7R01C189340 Door Tag date 06C
since it has a bag.
The Shelby (date in sig) has a bag as well.
I'm 95% certain they both have single squirters, but I can't find them this minute.
Here is a pic of the one I removed and a link to an album with some dimensions.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wJGsZcxmbBz1xXqM6
a bag car would have had single squirters. The single was changed to a double later in production after the change to plastic bottle. I don't think the two different changes coincided but then again I don't have wide enough data base. I do know I have not seen a bag car with double squirters before.
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My signature car has the bag
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I used to own a '67 SJ Fastback (7R02S193473) that was built 7 days behind schedule on March 28, 1967.
It had the washer bag as well...
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FYI it is important to remember the build date is the finish date. There is not presently a way to determine when the cars assembly was started only on what day it was finished . We don't have a way of knowing how many stations a car may have gone through before being stalled at some point for one reason or another prior to being finished. With that said this may explain how a seemingly earlier feature found its way car built after the early item scheduled use was changed. This is not the answer all of the time but just something to consider when contemplating how a car ended up being a certain way outside different cut off dates.
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Bob, that is a great point. In this case, are you thinking that a unibody could have been put together with the bag bracket, and then for some reason such as lacking inventory of a critical part was set aside for a while. Then when put back in flow the new plastic container was in play. Rather than drill out the bracket it was easier to put the bag in? I’m just trying to put your comments into a scenario. If this is not what you were thinking can you expound? Thanks
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FYI it is important to remember the build date is the finish date. There is not presently a way to determine when the cars assembly was started only on what day it was finished . We don't have a way of knowing how many stations a car may have gone through before being stalled at some point for one reason or another prior to being finished.
Car or body would not be "stalled" at any point on the line only at the end of the body and trim section. It could be pulled out according to workers but that would not be for a lack of a part. And if pulled that would be a very random event and not one that often happened while the rest of production would provide the data we would be studying in these surveys
Bob, that is a great point. In this case, are you thinking that a unibody could have been put together with the bag bracket, and then for some reason such as lacking inventory of a critical part was set aside for a while. .........
The build would not have been started until all the parts were in house and available according to workers and managers. Now a slight hold up at the mid point was expected and room made for within limits. Looking at data from later built cars were we have more information there could be 3-6 days between when the body was started and the car completed. But for more of these running changes a range covering even that amount of days will bring allot of clarity to the information.
For this particular discussion the choice of when the change over would take place would be in the first half of the build since the bag bracket needed to be welded before painting and in turn make for a tighter/narrower range when compared to other changes that would come into play on the later half of the cars build.
NOTE: Posted my findings in the first post of this thread. Turned out a neater pattern than I would have expected.
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Thanks as always Jeff
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Unfortunately I don't expect to have as many samples for many of the other running changes in 67 as we did this one. The inclusion of the Shelby data helped allot - especially when it came to real build dates.
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Jeff, here are a few more that I have Marti reports and therefore dates.
In looking through many more pictures, but no dates unfortunately, I see things starting to flip over in the 194xxx to 198xxx range.
VIN Actual Type
7R02S100xxx 8/22/1966 Bag
7R02S108xxx 9/21/1966 Bag
7R02S114xxx 10/5/1966 Bag
7R01S117xxx 10/18/1966 Bag
7R02A143xxx 12/5/1966 Bag
7R01S148xxx 12/5/1966 Bag
7R02S159xxx 12/23/1966 Bag
7R01S157xxx 1/5/1967 Bag
7R02S166xxx 1/6/1967 Bag
7R02C176xxx 1/30/1967 Bag
7R01C203xxx 4/22/1967 Bottle
7R01C200xxx 4/27/1967 Bottle
7R03C222xxx 6/27/1967 Bottle
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Bob, that is a great point. In this case, are you thinking that a unibody could have been put together with the bag bracket, and then for some reason such as lacking inventory of a critical part was set aside for a while. Then when put back in flow the new plastic container was in play. Rather than drill out the bracket it was easier to put the bag in? I’m just trying to put your comments into a scenario. If this is not what you were thinking can you expound? Thanks
That was exactly the scenario I was trying to convey . It might not be the answer every time but it certainly is a possibility in some cases.
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Jeff, here are a few more that I have Marti reports and therefore dates.
In looking through many more pictures, but no dates unfortunately, I see things starting to flip over in the 194xxx to 198xxx range.
Thanks will add them to my - they seem to line up perfect with all the others
VINs can be more difficult since we know they were built in sequential order. I've got 7R192xxx with bottles and 7R193xxx with bag
May (by date) even expand the VIN range plastics to 7R182xxxs in some examples but that is why dropped the VIN range out of the 67 and up graphic and went with the more solid, know, completion date. For the 67 and up cars VINs are too IMHO unreliable and will mislead owners/builders more.
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My 67 GT500, #1317, was built at San Jose on January 31 and has the bag.
Texas Swede
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The earliest documented bottle example I could find was for a Diamond Green Hardtop (7R01T1969XX) built on April 12, 1967 - six days behind schedule.
So based upon my earlier posting, that seems to put our transition timeline at SJ sometime between 3/28/67 and 4/12/67...
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Car or body would not be "stalled" at any point on the line only at the end of the body and trim section. It could be pulled out according to workers but that would not be for a lack of a part. And if pulled that would be a very random event and not one that often happened while the rest of production would provide the data we would be studying in these surveys
The build would not have been started until all the parts were in house and available according to workers and managers. Now a slight hold up at the mid point was expected and room made for within limits. Looking at data from later built cars were we have more information there could be 3-6 days between when the body was started and the car completed. But for more of these running changes a range covering even that amount of days will bring allot of clarity to the information.
For this particular discussion the choice of when the change over would take place would be in the first half of the build since the bag bracket needed to be welded before painting and in turn make for a tighter/narrower range when compared to other changes that would come into play on the later half of the cars build.
NOTE: Posted my findings in the first post of this thread. Turned out a neater pattern than I would have expected.
Jeff, I was suggesting that something could happen during production regardless of where and what for that would keep a car from being officially finished (build date) . That delay could skew the findings on otherwise typical transition periods. Not a every time explanation but possible a sometime. Such anomalies can add to confusion which is why I posted the reminder .
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Jeff, I was suggesting that something could happen during production regardless of where and what for that would keep a car from being officially finished (build date) . That delay could skew the findings on otherwise typical transition periods. Not a every time explanation but possible a sometime. Such anomalies can add to confusion which is why I posted the reminder .
We may always find what may be those oddballs and the reason for publishing a range. We'll just have to do our best. Think the way it went for this first time I'm surprised how many data points could be collected and how well a pattern emerged. Should be an improvement and increase our understanding but accept that not all details will be as visible and easy to document as this one was.
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My 67 GT500 that is mostly original and i have owned for 35 years has a bottle. The marti report says scheduled San Jose build date of 3-20-67 and Ford vin #192xxx. Completed by Shelby on April 27th.
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My 67 GT500 that is mostly original and i have owned for 35 years has a bottle. The marti report says scheduled San Jose build date of 3-20-67 and Ford vin #192xxx. Completed by Shelby on April 27th.
What is the date on the Marti report that the car was actually completed if you don't mind?
While we're collecting data what is the date on the drivers side inner fender panel also? Thanks
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Jeff,
My 67 convertible of many years ago is at the very tail end of the washer bag era. 7R03A193xxx, build data 21C. (not D)
Regards,
Pete Morgan
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I guess I was not understanding the marti report. Now that I got out all my Shelby paperwork I see some different dates. So, marti report says
Serialized : 03/06/67
Scheduled for Build; 03/20/67
Actually Built: 04/27/67
When I posted I was thinking 04-27-67 was the completed at Shelby date, but after digging out my paperwork from SAAC it says completed 05/13/67. Sorry for jumping on here before checking all my paperwork. But still my Ford vin is 7R02Q192xxx which seems to show that there will not be an actual vin number cut off but more of a date of completion cut off for the change over.
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Thanks for checking and the confirmation. Now it fits nicely in the pattern identified in the first post.
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Thanks for checking and the confirmation. Now it fits nicely in the pattern identified in the first post.
Jeff was it normal for that big of a delay? Ford vin7R02Q192xxx not completed till some cars with vins ending in 203xxx were completed? I am assuming something specific to the Shelby spec was not available.
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Jeff was it normal for that big of a delay? Ford vin7R02Q192xxx not completed till some cars with vins ending in 203xxx were completed? I am assuming something specific to the Shelby spec was not available.
I don't know your Shelby vin to see what options your car had. Did it have A/C?
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Jeff was it normal for that big of a delay? Ford vin7R02Q192xxx not completed till some cars with vins ending in 203xxx were completed? I am assuming something specific to the Shelby spec was not available.
Happened all the time. Maybe things were running behind, supply of some needed part or sub assembly or things like that. Then for particular order the managers and workers didn't like to do cars that were highly optioned one after another since that would make things more difficult but that sort of thing could not equate to days/weeks but instead a day or so only.
I'm sticking with, at this time, a lack of some part they needed before they would start the build. You might want to check the dates of other cars in your build group just for the heck of it but that can span over weeks of production at San Jose. Just another example of why this is not unusual. They may have used some of these orders as fill between others with higher priority
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I don't know your Shelby vin to see what options your car had. Did it have A/C?
I added it to my signature. It is a no option car.