ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1966 Mustang => Topic started by: evantugby on April 18, 2020, 04:41:11 PM
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Experts,
Hoping to get some guidance. I'm doing as good of a concours-level restoration on a 66 fastback k-code as my budget allows. :)
Question 1: Were all upper & lower control arms the same for C, A, and K-codes?
Question 2: Is it worth paying big money ($1500-$2000) to have someone restore my upper & lower control arms or would you just replacing them with look-a-likes found here:
https://www.cjponyparts.com/scott-drake-upper-control-arm-assembly-premium-black-gray-1965-1966/p/UCA3/
https://www.cjponyparts.com/scott-drake-lower-control-arm-assembly-premium-black-gray-1965-1966/p/LCA71/
Note: Pictures are for your determination on authenticity and worthiness of restoring. My lower control arm knuckles appear original with pressed in bolts. However my upper control arm knuckle is using bolts.
Thanks for the guidance!
Evan
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Question 1: Were all upper & lower control arms the same for C, A, and K-codes?
And 6 cylinders also ;)
Question 2: Is it worth paying big money ($1500-$2000) to have someone restore my upper & lower control arms or would you just replacing them with look-a-likes found here:
It's a choice between cost and how close to original you want to be. Just like many other parts on the car.
It's like cutting corners or lower your expectations when building a house or buying a new car. Or in racing how fast do you want to go. At the beginning you can gain allot of time for a few thousand dollars. Once your car is really quick and competitive then a tenth of a second might mean tens of thousands of dollars
If your concerned about judging it can be about what the cost is per point you could lose. Make too many choices and lower the quality/originality then your going to end up getting a lesser and correctly so award. Make these choices where they are too easy to see you'll have more "car show experts" pointing them out when you show the car.
It's all about choices and no one can make them for you. Once you make them accept them for what they are.
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I'd recommend restoring originals, especially on a part that would be rather difficult to swap out and risk damaging paint or other areas later.
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Thanks for your feedback, gentlemen.
Charles/Jim--Have you restored control arms before? If so, did you drill out the waffle pattern rivots and replace with nuts/bolts?
Follow-up question: Did the upper control arms get half painted black like in photo 1 or in photo 2?
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This should answer alot of your questions:
http://anghelrestorations.com/uploads/3/5/1/2/35122002/65_to_73_suspension_guide_v2.0a.pdf (http://anghelrestorations.com/uploads/3/5/1/2/35122002/65_to_73_suspension_guide_v2.0a.pdf)
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Question 2: Is it worth paying big money ($1500-$2000) to have someone restore my upper & lower control arms or would you just replacing them with look-a-likes found here:
I am currently struggling with the same question.
It appears that your lower control arms are worn from the end links, not sure if those can be restored.
When I removed the UCA shaft on my original arms I noticed that the threads were gaulded/worn and I wonder if those too can be repaired or reused.
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This should answer alot of your questions:
http://anghelrestorations.com/uploads/3/5/1/2/35122002/65_to_73_suspension_guide_v2.0a.pdf (http://anghelrestorations.com/uploads/3/5/1/2/35122002/65_to_73_suspension_guide_v2.0a.pdf)
excellent article on identification of these components. Helped out a lot! Thank you. I sent you a PM.
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Charles/Jim--Have you restored control arms before? If so, did you drill out the waffle pattern rivots and replace with nuts/bolts?
They wouldn't be correct with nuts/bolts. Marcus and a couple others can do the rivets correctly. Having the correct ball joints/boots is another matter. The correct C4 ones are getting expensive these days as there is no correct reproduction. Some have used Moog ball joints with reproduction C7 boots. Still not correct, but may have to compromise depending on what the final goal and budget are.
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Charles,
I know drilling out my rivots and replacing with nuts/bolts isn't correct but that is where I will compromise because I would like to restore a set on my own. Marcus does great work but my budget doesn't allow me to use his services for this particular item...at least I'm not ready to eat that bill yet. :)
I did find "K" stamped into each of my UCAs. I read Marcus Anghel's PDF on UCAs and he mentioned "not all stampings on UCAs fall into a date code format" and provided a couple pictures in the PDF of stampings like "5CC", "22", "JD", "64". Mine simple has "K". Check out the picture. Anyone have any theory as to what these stamps mean?
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If you have a small matching shop in your town you can do all the work and have them press the rivets in. Ask around you might just find someone willing to tinker with it
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most shops won't 'tinker with it' due to a liability issue.
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A couple near me will and do. If you don’t ask they won’t tell
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Well, let us know the names of these shops that are willing to tinker with it. I have about 10 sets I can send right away. Im looking forward to hearing about that.
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I'll check with them this week and report back - a lot of places here are shut down.
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i have 66 I6 bot all new susp inc new radior and orig bench seat
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Gents,
I'm in the process of restoring my lower control arms. I need some assistance with getting this "tang" to catch again when putting back together. I can't get it to grab and hold due to the ball joint spring compression. Any tips/tricks?
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After the rivets go on, should be able to just tap it in a bit.
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After the rivets go on, should be able to just tap it in a bit.
Thanks Charles.
Couple follow up questions:
1) is it best to remove the ball joint by bending out these “tangs” seen in picture 1 or by breaking the spot welds in picture 2?
2) Upper and Lower control arms were 1/2 to 2/3rds painted with black paint. Were they dipped in black paint or sprayed?
3) Which paint would be best for use? An oil base enamel?
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Thanks Charles.
Couple follow up questions:
1) is it best to remove the ball joint by bending out these “tangs” seen in picture 1 or by breaking the spot welds in picture 2?
2) Upper and Lower control arms were 1/2 to 2/3rds painted with black paint. Were they dipped in black paint or sprayed?
3) Which paint would be best for use? An oil base enamel?
The lower plate can be removed by bending the tabs. You'll ruin the control arms by trying to separate the spot welds on the large bottom section.
Control arms were dipped. Any acrylic enamel paint would be fine. Some choose to tape a line and use spray paint, getting heavy on the application to produce runs that simulate the dipping process. If you choose to go the dipping method, there are ways to do with without having to buy a large amount of paint... such as filling a bucket with water and then add paint to the top. It's something that takes some trial/error to figure out.
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Charles,
Thank you sir. Once I get rivets in place on my UCA and LCAs and bushing pushed in place I'll be ready for paint.
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The lower plate can be removed by bending the tabs. You'll ruin the control arms by trying to separate the spot welds on the large bottom section.
Control arms were dipped. Any acrylic enamel paint would be fine. Some choose to tape a line and use spray paint, getting heavy on the application to produce runs that simulate the dipping process. If you choose to go the dipping method, there are ways to do with without having to buy a large amount of paint... such as filling a bucket with water and then add paint to the top. It's something that takes some trial/error to figure out.
There are positives and negative to leaving the plate in place. There is a bunch of rust, scale and dirt that gets in there and can't come out unless they are separated. A die grinder with a carbide ball can remove the spot weld. Now you can really clean things up.
The bad is that after you take it apart you have to weld up the hole you made and emulate the spot weld. You don't have to weld it back to the large plate.
I think the weld was a simple way to keep everything together before the rivets were set.
You can do this with bolts.
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There are positives and negative to leaving the plate in place. There is a bunch of rust, scale and dirt that gets in there and can't come out unless they are separated. A die grinder with a carbide ball can remove the spot weld. Now you can really clean things up.
The bad is that after you take it apart you have to weld up the hole you made and emulate the spot weld. You don't have to weld it back to the large plate.
I think the weld was a simple way to keep everything together before the rivets were set.
You can do this with bolts.
Bossbill
Thank you for this information. I have a couple sets of Uppers and Lowers I am restoring. One set is for my kar. On another set I did remove that weld and disassembled everything. Good to know that I don’t necessarily need to weld it back in place although I probably will.
Let me ask you guys another question: Should I press out and reinstall the spring saddle bushings? I ask because my new repo spring saddle bushings are not concours-correct. What is the downside to not replacing my original spring saddle bushings?
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The main issue with welding it back together is the difference in metal thickness.
Getting the thick plate hot enough to accept a weld without melting the much thinner metal is tricky stuff. A TIG could do it. An induction welder as well. Both would take practice. If you fail you will create a big mess, which may why others tell you not to try this.
I found that getting my fake weld puddle to look right was difficult enough without getting into welding these vastly dissimilar thickness metals.
As for the pivot, you have to take a piece of tubing, cut it to length so that it fits tightly inside of the pivot saddle area and then cut out the sides so that it forms a C, insert it next to the bushing -- and THEN press it out. The press setup is awkward.
There isn't enough strength in the saddle to press out the bushing without additional support.
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The main issue with welding it back together is the difference in metal thickness.
Getting the thick plate hot enough to accept a weld without melting the much thinner metal is tricky stuff. A TIG could do it. An induction welder as well. Both would take practice. If you fail you will create a big mess, which may why others tell you not to try this.
I found that getting my fake weld puddle to look right was difficult enough without getting into welding these vastly dissimilar thickness metals.
As for the pivot, you have to take a piece of tubing, cut it to length so that it fits tightly inside of the pivot saddle area and then cut out the sides so that it forms a C, insert it next to the bushing -- and THEN press it out. The press setup is awkward.
There isn't enough strength in the saddle to press out the bushing without additional support.
Preheat the thicker plate, and it would act like a thinner plate. Done it in my ordinary work as a welder.
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I hadn't thought about pre-heating -- but the socket end of the ball-joint is heat treated.
Perhaps heat just the area in question with a oxy/acetylene torch? I'm a hobby welder so I don't pretend to know enough about what temperature to get the thick plate to weld this. In the end does the weld perform any function since the bolts and rivets should accomplish this?