ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1966 Shelby => Topic started by: Pete Bush on December 26, 2010, 08:32:00 AM
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M1905 Sapphire Blue Ditzler #13075 was an available color on 1966 Shelby's. It was a Thunderbird color for that year and was not available on any other Mustang. On the Thunderbird it carried a paint code G. When it was used on the Shelby Mustangs was the paint code on the door tag blank? Or did they use the G code?
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I thought 65-66 Shelby's didn't have data plates....
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Chris,
I was unaware that the door tags were removed. (I'm assuming they were remove and not that they were never installed by Ford in the first place)
Would a Sapphire Blue Mustang been shipped to Shelby American for modification, or would Shelby have painted the vehicle themselves?
Do any removed door tags or Ford build sheets survive? How did Shelby document their build-up - other than the Shelby VIN tag?
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In researching this further, I found a statement in Jim Smart's Mustang Production Guide, Vol. 1 (pg. 14):
"At San Jose, the Mustang fastbacks were ordered and built under six-digit DSO codes which called for assembly attention outside of the Regular Production Option realm."
In order for Mr. Smart to make this statement, wouldn't a door tag or build sheet have had to survive?
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According to Colin Date's Collector's Originality Guide 64.5-66 I just got for Christmas, "the vehicle warranty plate was removed by the Shelby plant, further stripping the Mustang of its identity." I'm sure Shelby probably tossed the plates as they were no longer needed. I know my father's Hertz doesn't have the data plate but does have the holes for it.
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M1905 Sapphire Blue Ditzler #13075 was an available color on 1966 Shelby's. It was a Thunderbird color for that year and was not available on any other Mustang.
Not completely true. Anyone that wanted to pay the extra $19-30 could have their new Mustang painted that (or any other) color. A small number (have seen at least three so far) of Mustangs were painted that exact color in 66
Chris,
I was unaware that the door tags were removed. (I'm assuming they were remove and not that they were never installed by Ford in the first place)
That is what we thought at one point but there is plenty of evidence (original cars) where one door tag rivet remains (other one was torn or fell out during door tag removal) and often there is a single scratch in the paint where the tag would have been located - suggesting to many that a screw driver (or similar tag) was used to remove the tag
Would a Sapphire Blue Mustang been shipped to Shelby American for modification, or would Shelby have painted the vehicle themselves?
The car (we own a blue 66 GT350) would have been painted at San Jose. Hood, side scoops and stripes (if so equipped) on 66's were done at the Shelby assembly plant
Do any removed door tags or Ford build sheets survive? How did Shelby document their build-up - other than the Shelby VIN tag?
Not sure what you mean by (document their build up" Remember this was a small operation so the depth (similar to a Ford assembly plant) that would have been nessesary elsewhere was not needed but the line was laid out along with what would be done at each station in their plan for each year and modified and altered as things came.
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+1 on Jeff's comments. FYI the door tag on 6S189 was found under the original carpet. With the extensive work that had to be done on the override traction bars of the early cars I have always assumed the seats were taken out and the carpet was rolled up for easy access and protection of the carpet during the welding. This exposed underlayment under the carpet is were the Ford tag was found on my car. It was apparently during this time that the Ford tag was pry-ed off and was mistakenly left in the car. I say mistakenly because only very few have been found still inside the car which seems to indicates some kind of procedure or conscience effort to keep them from being left in the car IMHO. The 6S189 tag appears to have been pry-ed on one end. I still have the tag and the car it came from. I would think that with no welding being done on the inside of a underride equipped car (which is in the majority in 66 ) the carpet would not need to be rolled up as much . With out the carpet being rolled up would lessen the chance of a pry ed off tag being covered up and forgotten. It would seem unlikely that many if any tag that was not covered up and left inadvertently inside on the carpet would be overlooked and not taken out IMHO.Bob
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Thanks for your replies, Jeff and Bob.
My curiosity wasn’t so much about the novelty of a Sapphire Blue Mustang. I realize that a buyer could order virtually any color. My inquiry was how they coded it.
The site where I found the information about the Shelby paint colors stated that five colors were used on the 1966 Shelbys:
Raven Black paint code A
Wimbledon White paint code M
Ivy Green paint code R
Candy Apple Red paint code T
Sapphire Blue paint code G
Now all of those colors, except Sapphire Blue, were standard production colors for 1966 Mustangs that year. I would expect to see their paint codes on any surviving door tags or build sheets. The Blue however, was only standard on the Thunderbird for 66. Now most other special paint had a blank paint code on the door tag, and a 6-digit DSO. Did the Sapphire Blue Shelby’s actual use the G code? If so, that seems to be a departure from how they handled RPO colors. Or was the website I visited wrong to call it paint code G?
I would still expect to see 6-digit DSO’s on all Shelby-bound door tags, regardless of which paint was used. The cars still needed some specific prep if I’m to believe the sources I’ve been reading. Since Shelby’s operation was in Los Angeles, I’d expect the first two digits of the DSO to be 71. And since the vehicles weren’t shipped in one allotment (it looks like shipments of unknown quantities took place almost monthly from approximately October to May), I’d expect the last four digits to differ between vehicles (or batches of vehicles) and increase incrementally with time.
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Sapphire Blue was not a regular production paint code for a Mustang and would have resulted in a blank paint code and 6 digit DSO. I have a picture of the door plate from a '66 GT convertible that was originally SB. The owner had the original window sticker. The car still had the original paint and top.
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Thanks for the confirmation, Charles. :)
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....................Now all of those colors, except Sapphire Blue, were standard production colors for 1966 Mustangs that year. I would expect to see their paint codes on any surviving door tags or build sheets. The Blue however, was only standard on the Thunderbird for 66. Now most other special paint had a blank paint code on the door tag, and a 6-digit DSO. Did the Sapphire Blue Shelby’s actual use the G code? .............
Not that I'm aware of. Shelby didn't care how they were coded, that would have been a San Jose /Ford detail.
I would still expect to see 6-digit DSO’s on all Shelby-bound door tags, regardless of which paint was used. The cars still needed some specific prep if I’m to believe the sources I’ve been reading.
Not sure what special prep would be - will ask the workers when we get together
Since Shelby’s operation was in Los Angeles, I’d expect the first two digits of the DSO to be 71. And since the vehicles weren’t shipped in one allotment (it looks like shipments of unknown quantities took place almost monthly from approximately October to May), I’d expect the last four digits to differ between vehicles (or batches of vehicles) and increase incrementally with time.
In 65 + 66 the orders numbers did include the #71 district codes for most or all of the orders (can not be certain since not all of the documentation has been identified) But that changed in 67 even though they were going to the same location. Just some paperwork thing/routing Ford changed. The Shelby orders were only a hand full of thousands placed through that district
Order numbers would not differ between vehicles produced under the same order number, only from order to order. As for regularity please understand that shipments of cars did not always relate to a specific order or group (production) of cars.
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Order numbers would not differ between vehicles produced under the same order number, only from order to order. As for regularity please understand that shipments of cars did not always relate to a specific order or group (production) of cars.
Jeff,
Attached please find a compilation of 1966 San Jose special orders, as found in Smart’s Production Guide. I’ve been attempting to understand the special order system, and I’ve rearranged Smart’s data in order to see if I can discern any patterns.
Please note that there were no dates on the GT350’s listed in his book. These dates are inferred (by me) from the placement of the serial number within the context of the surrounding dates. Even though the dates may be off by as much as a couple of days, you can see that GT350’s were produced in almost every month from October thru May.
I can’t come to any conclusions at this point about how the 6-digit DSO’s were produced – individually by cars, or a single order number for a batch. It appears that the High Country Specials received a unique DSO for each car, even though I understand they were shipped as a single order. But I’ve also seen instances of DSO’s on export cars from Metuchen where a single special order number applied to 6 cars. (I have a similar chart for Metuchen special orders, but it takes up a couple of pages.)
The data also shows that San Jose produced the most vehicles with special order paint. And Dearborn, even though it had the largest number of recorded VIN’s, had the least number of special orders – 8.
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Jeff,
Attached please find a compilation of 1966 San Jose special orders, as found in Smart’s Production Guide. I've been attempting to understand the special order system, and I've rearranged Smart’s data in order to see if I can discern any patterns.
Please note that there were no dates on the GT350’s listed in his book. These dates are inferred (by me) from the placement of the serial number within the context of the surrounding dates. Even though the dates may be off by as much as a couple of days, you can see that GT350’s were produced in almost every month from October thru May.
As we've talked about before those "dates" would only be the date they guessed they would be built on - from documentation they have shown to often be off by a month and other times right on
I can’t come to any conclusions at this point about how the 6-digit DSO’s were produced – individually by cars, or a single order number for a batch.
Think that has already to be shown that they were both - depending on the need and order. Example the special order paint cars I've owned were purchased as single units (one special DSO) since they were ordered to fill a specific owners purchase) while others (example Shelby's and Calif Specials) were ordered under one special DSO of cars with the same options and requirements. Same goes for police car, taxi cabs, buses... orders placed through the same system as described in Ford documents
It appears that the High Country Specials received a unique DSO for each car, even though I understand they were shipped as a single order. But I’ve also seen instances of DSO’s on export cars from Metuchen where a single special order number applied to 6 cars. (I have a similar chart for Metuchen special orders, but it takes up a couple of pages.)
Believe you are basing your assumption on what you see in that particular book. I believe that most of the High Country Specials were part of a batch of cars under multiple orders (of similar cars and options) We just don't have the data from all of the models built but instead one from this group and one from another. Believe a half dozen or so more of these cars have been found since that book was printed (been over 15 years) that have the same DSO's as some of the others
The data also shows that San Jose produced the most vehicles with special order paint. And Dearborn, even though it had the largest number of recorded VIN’s, had the least number of special orders – 8.
Remember that the VINs collected by the Jim's only represented less than 1/10th of 1% of production - not even a small sampling so IMHO its hard to draw any conclusion from the data since it is so small and relies on what part of the country participated
Just what I've learned over the years
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As we've talked about before those "dates" would only be the date they guessed they would be built on - from documentation they have shown to often be off by a month and other times right on
Quite right. The dates published in the book are the “scheduled” build dates. The actual build date could be off by a month or more, as is the case with my Sprint. The scheduled build date on the door tag and build sheet is May 10th, while the build date on the buck tag is June 21st – over 5 weeks difference!
Think that has already to be shown that they were both - depending on the need and order. Example the special order paint cars I've owned were purchased as single units (one special DSO) since they were ordered to fill a specific owners purchase) while others (example Shelby's and Calif Specials) were ordered under one special DSO of cars with the same options and requirements. Same goes for police car, taxi cabs, buses... orders placed through the same system as described in Ford documents
Is there a surviving Ford document that describes how they assigned special orders?
Believe you are basing your assumption on what you see in that particular book. I believe that most of the High Country Specials were part of a batch of cars under multiple orders (of similar cars and options) We just don't have the data from all of the models built but instead one from this group and one from another. Believe a half dozen or so more of these cars have been found since that book was printed (been over 15 years) that have the same DSO's as some of the others
Yes, the MPG book has been a good reference source of information for me. I haven’t been at this as long as you, Charles, and some of the other regulars here. I hope that by looking at some old data in a different way I can tease some new insights out of it.
I’m aware of 5 High Country Specials, all with different DSO’s. Some of these are convertibles and some are hardtops. Some have Black interiors, and one has Ivy Gold. And of course, there are the three different colors of Columbine Blue, Aspen Gold, and Timberline Green. If we begin to see a repeat in DSO’s as more cars surface, can we say with certainty it’s because they were part of the same dealer order? Or perhaps it’s because the color, body-style, and option combinations are beginning to repeat?
Remember that the VINs collected by the Jim's only represented less than 1/10th of 1% of production - not even a small sampling so IMHO its hard to draw any conclusion from the data since it is so small and relies on what part of the country participated
Even small samplings have merit, as long as the data collection methodology isn’t biased. The book represents vehicles from all over the world. I agree that it would be a mistake to take the inferences too specifically, but there’s certainly sufficient data to postulate some interesting trends.
The special paint colors, for instance, have a higher percentage reporting from the San Jose plant. This may represent a statistical anomaly like 12 successive heads in the toss of a coin. Or it might represent an actual trend. A piece of evidence supporting the later is the following ad from the April 7th 1966 Oakland Tribune. Perhaps the west coast dealers were simply more proactive in soliciting sales of special colors - as the Easter ad, and later the Rainbow of Colors promotions seem to indicate.
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I've always been under the assumption that special order numbers were simply incremental for each DSO. For instance, a 6 digit DSO like 220496 would be the 496th special order made to DSO 22.
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Is there a surviving Ford document that describes how they assigned special orders?
First reference I believe mentions it (would have to double check to make sure ;) was one of the Shop Tip issues. If not, or in addition, some of the minutes of the annual service meetings should have something
I’m aware of 5 High Country Specials, all with different DSO’s. Some of these are convertibles and some are hardtops. Some have Black interiors, and one has Ivy Gold. And of course, there are the three different colors of Columbine Blue, Aspen Gold, and Timberline Green. If we begin to see a repeat in DSO’s as more cars surface, can we say with certainty it’s because they were part of the same dealer order? Or perhaps it’s because the color, body-style, and option combinations are beginning to repeat?
If they followed the same pattern as other groups of multiple cars it was they would put together and order or cars and body styles equipped the same way but could include different colors within that same group. Believe that Calif Specials orders were filled that way and we have the Shelby forms showing that for those cars.
Believe I have a list or spread sheet somewhere were I was throwing the special order car info with DSO's
.............A piece of evidence supporting the later is the following ad from the April 7th 1966 Oakland Tribune. Perhaps the west coast dealers were simply more proactive in soliciting sales of special colors - as the Easter ad, and later the Rainbow of Colors promotions seem to indicate.
Not sure if the West/Calif dealers or region was more creative, more ads survive or just more research has been done in that region but thanks for posting the 66 Oakland ad. Never heard of the place nor seen a car sold through that dealership that I recall
I've always been under the assumption that special order numbers were simply incremental for each DSO. For instance, a 6 digit DSO like 220496 would be the 496th special order made to DSO 22.
That has been my (and others) understanding and the assignment was done when the order was receive so they were not always produced in numerical order
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I've always been under the assumption that special order numbers were simply incremental for each DSO. For instance, a 6 digit DSO like 220496 would be the 496th special order made to DSO 22.
That has been my (and others) understanding and the assignment was done when the order was receive so they were not always produced in numerical order
That’s generally the case in my review too, but like all things Ford there are exceptions.
One notable exception is special order #510224. You’ll find it on the ’66 San Jose spreadsheet I provided earlier. Actually, you’ll find two cars with that special order number. The first was scheduled for building on 10F and appears to be a special paint car headed for Denver. The second is a High Country Special scheduled for building the same day (15G) as the rest of these special promotion cars. Two different cars, over a month apart in the scheduled build date – same special order number.
Below is a photo of the punchcard from Charles’ document collection. I’ve highlighted in yellow those areas where I believe the special order number would first be found. Seems strange, to say the least, that Ford would schedule two vehicles so differently from the same order number.
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That's generally the case in my review too, but like all things Ford there are exceptions.
One notable exception is special order #510224. You'll find it on the ’66 San Jose spreadsheet I provided earlier. Actually, you'll find two cars with that special order number. The first was scheduled for building on 10F and appears to be a special paint car headed for Denver. The second is a High Country Special scheduled for building the same day (15G) as the rest of these special promotion cars. Two different cars, over a month apart in the scheduled build date – same special order number.
Below is a photo of the punchcard from Charles's document collection. I've highlighted in yellow those areas where I believe the special order number would first be found. Seems strange, to say the least, that Ford would schedule two vehicles so differently from the same order number.
Believe you may be making the assumption that all of the info that was sent into the book was without error (could have recorded the numbers incorrectly) or another possibility is a reproduction door tag. But agree that it does not make sense that two cars could be built off of the same order without sharing at least the same basic equipment. I guessing someone wrote down the wrong number, it got entered in the data base incorrectly or someone making up a new door tag simply made up a DSO for the tag - common practice with the 65-66's since there are no records
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Or.....
Thurlo Newell wanted an advance vehicle for promotional purposes? Part of the same order, but sent a month earlier than the other 333.