ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1968 Mustang => Topic started by: Coralsnake on June 03, 2020, 07:55:29 AM
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NOTE: This discussion was separated from another specifically about a particular car and engine type. It was separated so more focus could be given to the general subject
Starter thread http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=22645.new;topicseen (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=22645.new;topicseen)
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Can we explore the differences of a car sent to Canada some more? Im wondering if there is any build sheet evidence of different engines being used for Canadian builds?
That does not seem to be the case when it comes to other engine displacements, but I could be wrong.
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Can we explore the differences of a car sent to Canada some more? Im wondering if there is any build sheet evidence of different engines being used for Canadian builds?
That does not seem to be the case when it comes to other engine displacements, but I could be wrong.
To expand (we'll do it here as see if we need to split off) wouldn't the engine code on the buildsheet be a different one that a 50 state code? Has anyone seen a engine coding list with a non-emission, Canadian or similar notation?
I'll have to find some time to go back through what I have. I invite others to do the same. See a new thread a'coming :) Which is good - discussion should equal sharing and learning
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Can we explore the differences of a car sent to Canada some more? Im wondering if there is any build sheet evidence of different engines being used for Canadian builds?
That does not seem to be the case when it comes to other engine displacements, but I could be wrong.
I think that you are correct. Royce can chime in, but I believe that the W code 427-4V, and R code 428CJ for 1968 all had complete Thermactor smog systems for export?
S codes for 1968 in Canada often times have the 'Emissions Delete' on the Marti, and have open emissions with 1967 air cleaners. Was it the whole year, select cars?
Not positive on the C and J code cars, do not think that they had IMCO in 1968 for Canada DSO cars. Think open emissions and 1967 air cleaners?
No idea on 6 shooters, but we are getting off topic.
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As you can see I separated the subject
Going through my buildsheet copies I offer the following. Will add more to this post as I find more. Will include an update date at the bottom to indicate updates
NOTE: Not certain if Shelby's should be included. Just don't know if they were affected or different based on Canadian delivery/ordering codes but don't think buildsheets are going to show that anyway
8T01C1009xx
- Automatic
- Ordered out of DSO B1
- Projected build date of 23 or 25H
- Engine code of CN236J - on other C code auto (Decemeber 67 cars) I show K266J
Stop me if this is too far off subject but since I'm in the "stack"
8T03C1502xx
- 3 Speed
- Ordered out of DSO 95 (Export car sent to somewhere)
- Projected build date of 13A
- Engine code of 231J (other manual trans for the 50 states are coded K231J)
Have another from 8?02S1150xx but the edge is cropped and half the engine code is missing :(
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We have some good examples of both the 428CJ and 427-4V in Canada.
The Canadian sold 427-4V GT-E Cougars had the full Thermactor system and were identical in every way to USA bound cars.
The Canadian sold 428CJ was different. Canadian bound cars had no Thermactor system installed. Instead they had plugs in the cylinder head holes. All the examples that I am aware of were equipped with automatic transmission and built in Dearborn. Tom Cherry has a 1966 - 72 Canadian MPC that confirms this but I have not heard from him in years.
I think that you are correct. Royce can chime in, but I believe that the W code 427-4V, and R code 428CJ for 1968 all had complete Thermactor smog systems for export?
S codes for 1968 in Canada often times have the 'Emissions Delete' on the Marti, and have open emissions with 1967 air cleaners. Was it the whole year, select cars?
Not positive on the C and J code cars, do not think that they had IMCO in 1968 for Canada DSO cars. Think open emissions and 1967 air cleaners?
No idea on 6 shooters, but we are getting off topic.
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The Canadian sold 428CJ was different. Canadian bound cars had no Thermactor system installed. Instead they had plugs in the cylinder head holes. All the examples that I am aware of were equipped with automatic transmission and built in Dearborn. Tom Cherry has a 1966 - 72 Canadian MPC that confirms this but I have not heard from him in years.
Thanks, I have heard this, but have not seen the documentation. In the case of 1968 Shelbys, I am convinced this was not the case.
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Thanks, I have heard this, but have not seen the documentation. In the case of 1968 Shelbys, I am convinced this was not the case.
For both the GT-500 and the GT500KR?
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That would be my contention all big block Shelbys were built with smog, to the same standard, then sold.
I am interested in learning about the Mustangs.
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That would be my contention all big block Shelbys were built with smog, to the same standard, then sold.
I am interested in learning about the Mustangs.
+1. Have not seen any reasonable evidence to the contrary.
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Let me provide some support for my statement. I have approximately 200 build sheets from 1968 Shelbys. The engine ID codes are the same regardless of shipping destinations.
Cobra Jets are 407j or 408j / auto/ 4spd
GT500s are 405 jo5 or 405 jo4 /auto /4spd
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Just to be inclusive and cover the bases :)
GT350 w/Auto 284J01
GT350 4 Spd 283J01
Agree it appears to changes, dependent on ordering district, for the Shelby's in 68
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Being specialized does have its drawbacks sometimes
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As you all can tell, some of the engine tag numbers posted above have more characters than others. It appears that the second and or first character(s) in some of the tag numbers has/have been omitted.
I believe the first character, if present, is the 'calibration' code. It should be different for 49-state, 50-state, California, Canada, export, etc. Perhaps a 'standard' (50-state?) calibration has no calibration code at the beginning of the engine tag number but a 'special' calibration does have a code? For example, K231A versus CK231A.
I believe the second character, if present, indicates a combination of ancillaries/accessories, i.e. Thermactor air pump or not, A/C compressor or not, power steering pump or not, etc. For example K231A versus 231A.
The three numbers and the succeeding letter should always be present. I believe the numbers represent the engine displacement & carburetor and the succeeding letter represents the calibration & revision level.
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How many of those build sheets are from Shelbys that were built for Canada DSO's?
Let me provide some support for my statement. I have approximately 200 build sheets from 1968 Shelbys. The engine ID codes are the same regardless of shipping destinations.
Cobra Jets are 407j or 408j / auto/ 4spd
GT500s are 405 jo5 or 405 jo4 /auto /4spd
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I see this mistake often when someone refers to "49 state" applications. This is not true because in 1968 Arizona had the same restrictions as California. So if you must refer to a number of states in 1968 the correct number is 48.
Jeff I respectfully submit that this discussion will quickly go off the rails into misleading territory if too many model years / engine sizes are discussed at once.
As you all can tell, some of the engine tag numbers posted above have more characters than others. It appears that the second and or first character(s) in some of the tag numbers has/have been omitted.
I believe the first character, if present, is the 'calibration' code. It should be different for 49-state, 50-state, California, Canada, export, etc. Perhaps a 'standard' (50-state?) calibration has no calibration code at the beginning of the engine tag number but a 'special' calibration does have a code? For example, CK231A versus K231A.
I believe the second character, if present, indicates a combination of ancillaries/accessories, i.e. Thermactor air pump or not, A/C compressor or not, power steering pump or not, etc. For example K231A versus 231A.
The three numbers and the succeeding letter should always be present. I believe the numbers represent the engine displacement & carburetor and the succeeding letter represents the calibration & revision level.
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As you all can tell, some of the engine tag numbers posted above have more characters than others. It appears that the second and or first character(s) in some of the tag numbers has/have been omitted.....
What I posted were not the engine tag numbers but instead from buildsheets - what the workers used for matching engines with cars on the line. Since they were all printed out from the same system what you identified as "missing" letters or numbers was apparently on purpose and may have made a difference in the engine installed. At this point IMHO it suggests that the different coding meant something
I see this mistake often when someone refers to "49 state" applications. This is not true because in 1968 Arizona had the same restrictions as California. So if you must refer to a number of states in 1968 the correct number is 48.
Jeff I respectfully submit that this discussion will quickly go off the rails into misleading territory if too many model years / engine sizes are discussed at once.
Agree though the term was and is often used in thousands of reference books and documents. Even back to 65 other states (other than Calif) had emission requirements but that is another discussion.
Guess the next step is to see if any of the emission standard books will cover Canadian cars. Very dry reading ::)
Will keep the focus on 68 in this thread - just searching crumbs to help :) Removed my earlier post related to other years.
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Sort of checking all of them, I am not sure how many are canadian cars. If someone can show other codes, I would be open to other interpretations.
The numbers I provided are build sheet, engine tag numbers. Nothing omitted and I havent seen other prefixes or suffixes
In the case of 1968 Shelbys, the available information shows the cars were all built to the same standards by Ford and AOSmith, then sold.
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I have a Ford of Canada Registered Technician's Handbook, Introduction to the 1968 Mercury Product Line. Vol. 68, No. 1 S.E. 945
I have several pages to share that will contribute to this discussion. The copy doesn't have a date that I can find, but likely precedes the arrival of the 1968 cars. As we have seen before, what was intended in print, didn't make it to production.
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It all appears correct regarding the 427 V8 except there were not any Montegos, Cyclones or any other Ford, Mercury or Shelby products produced in 1968 model year with the 427 side oiler. Only the Cougar GT-E package came with those factory installed.
The document appears to be too early to have information about the 428CJ. Of course we know that the 390GT cars shipped to Canada had no Thermactor either, but maybe the document is still correct in that the 390GT is not really a high performance engine?
I have a Ford of Canada Registered Technician's Handbook, Introduction to the 1968 Mercury Product Line. Vol. 68, No. 1 S.E. 945
I have several pages to share that will contribute to this discussion. The copy doesn't have a date that I can find, but likely precedes the arrival of the 1968 cars. As we have seen before, what was intended in print, didn't make it to production.
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More emissions related information from same guide.
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What I posted were not the engine tag numbers but instead from buildsheets - what the workers used for matching engines with cars on the line. Since they were all printed out from the same system what you identified as "missing" letters or numbers was apparently on purpose and may have made a difference in the engine installed. At this point IMHO it suggests that the different coding meant something.
Yes, I know what you posted were codes from build sheets. I called them "engine tag numbers" not because I was talking about the actual metal tag attached to the engine but because the build sheets were labeled as "Engine", "Engine Tag", or "Engine Tag Number".
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Yes, I know what you posted were codes from build sheets. I called them "engine tag numbers" not because I was talking about the actual metal tag attached to the engine but because the build sheets were labeled as "Engine", "Engine Tag", or "Engine Tag Number".
Thanks for the clarification
As you all can tell, some of the engine tag numbers posted above have more characters than others. It appears that the second and or first character(s) in some of the tag numbers has/have been omitted.
Now that we're on the same page - no characters were skipped or not included in the post. Just the was they were on the sheets which likely designates a difference between the differently coded engines IMHO.
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I have more to load. I keep getting a 500 error?
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Now that we're on the same page - no characters were skipped or not included in the post. Just the was they were on the sheets which likely designates a difference between the differently coded engines IMHO.
I understand that no-one here skipped or left off letters of engine tag codes that they posted. What I was saying, in my original reply and now, is the same that you are....K231A is different than CK231A, with the "C" perhaps being Canada calibration.
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I am no expert for any year of 1st or 2nd generation. My expertise is 3rd generation. For 3rd generation engine tag numbers the first character (e.g. CK123AA) was the calibration code, and the character incremented yearly.
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See if this works with new photos.
Shows distributor numbers for 1968 cars in Canada.
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Interesting - I've never seen a C7AF 12127-F distributor. The Canadian 428CJ car that I owned came with a C8OF 12127-J distributor.
See if this works with new photos.
Shows distributor numbers for 1968 cars in Canada.
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Remember, I mentioned that this guide likely predates the cars. For sure it is before April 1968.
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Im open to the theory how about a build sheet showing some differences for the smog less Cobra Jets?
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The MPC is as good as you are likely to find. 1968 428CJ Cougars and Mustangs are extremely rare. There are probably 250 GT500 KR Shelbys for each 1968 Cougar built with the 428CJ. Very few of the Dearborn cars had build sheets.
Im open to the theory how about a build sheet showing some differences for the smog less Cobra Jets?
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So let me ask in all sincerity, can we say one way or the other that the CN Cobra jets can without smog?
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Im open to the theory how about a build sheet showing some differences for the smog less Cobra Jets?
Like other engine examples I believe there would have been differences shown on the buildsheets so that the workers could tell one from another if there was a difference (no thermactor voe example)
One side note - surprised someone has not brought it up already. There was a set of "Canadian" Cylinder heads that were offered to an got approval from NHRA to be run in stock classes back in the day. Unfortunately for the discussion this was found later to be some trick heads someone slip by the organization rather than production heads according to reports some 30 plus years later
So let me ask in all sincerity, can we say one way or the other that the CN Cobra jets can without smog?
Pete haven't seen the "smoking gun" show up yet in this discussion or elsewhere. Just me