ConcoursMustang Forums
Restoring - General discussions that span across many different groups of years and models => Parts => Topic started by: warwick on April 19, 2023, 02:16:43 PM
-
I removed these bolts from my crankshaft pulley. They are Grade 5 marked and have some markings: B S U that I haven't seen before. I believe them to be original to the car.
While Ford doc indicates the original bolts are PN 374525-S8 and are used extensively early 60s engines to attach the pulley to the harmonic balancer. AMK guide to Fasteners (and Ford Std Parts & Utility Cat) linsts 374525-S8 as a Grade 2 hex head split SEMS 3/8-16x1.00. I have seen 55215-S washer(ie: flange) head -also Grade 2. AMK's replacement bolt I believe is a Grade 8 Place bolt.
Has anyone seen these markings before?
-
What year and what engine would be helpful to know.
-
Bob,
I went to the 67 Engine Assembly Manual and most engines use the same bolt PN. 68 late year FE.
-
Bob,
I went to the 67 Engine Assembly Manual and most engines use the same bolt PN. 68 late year FE.
Nope ,not in the real world at least. 67 FE do not typically use that type of bolt to hold the crank pulley. Neither did 68 or 69 typically.The typical bolt used there is a castle head style.
-
Bob,
The MPC (Final Issue) does spec a place bolt PN 42998-S8 which is a G8 place bolt for 68/70 FEs; which is diff from most Engine Assy Manual applications.
The bolts from my engine I have not seen nor do I understand the B S U markings; they are F (Ford) bolts.
-
Don't recognize them either. Know that at least one engine plant had an issue with installing the crank pulley bolts incorrectly but those were on small block engines and they caught the problem pretty quickly. Sorry just one of those area I've never taken pictures of to help out
Will change the title to reflect the focus of 68 FE to help others when they view the thread later
-
Jeff/Bob,
I think the issue is further confused because I think at some point Ford upgraded to the Place (castle head as Bob calls it) Bolt from the original spec'd SEMs bolt. I think this issue may cross some engine architectures.
I have just never seen the Ford bolts on my engine.
-
I think the issue is further confused because I think at some point Ford upgraded to the Place (castle head as Bob calls it) Bolt from the original spec'd SEMs bolt. I think this issue may cross some engine architectures.
I have just never seen the Ford bolts on my engine.
Just because you have an engine with a bolt that has the correct threads, but does not have the correct head style does not mean is was a period correct bolt. Your Mustang is over 50 years old. A lot of "maintenance" was performed in that period of time, at least I hope it was. Those bolts may be a better selection 20 or 30 years ago, but if you are attempting a concourse grade restoration, those are the wrong bolts.
Jim
-
The bolts from my engine I have not seen nor do I understand the B S U markings; they are F (Ford) bolts.
UBS = Unified Bearing Stress. The head was undercut to allow the bolt, under nominal torque, to deform and provide an acceptable level of "locking", thereby eliminating the need for a lock washer. This "technology" was not acceptable for use on government programs.
Jim
-
Jim,
Thank you. While UBS is a generic term and makes sense I was unable to find the bolt in Ford documentation. That is why I posted the question if anyone else has seen it. Did Ford have a recall or tech notice to replace bolts?
As far as the bolt not being original - this is a low mile original car with service records and the original owner known, the engine was not removed till 2020. On inspection all gaskets (inc SS head) and pieces were Ford. The timing chain original nylon teeth. All fan belts original date coded. All Pwr Steering hoses correctly date coded. It is a May build GTE 427. The harmonic balancer on close inspection was painted black on the inside and not on the outside - this was from the factory. Evidently this was seen in earlier engines.
It is easy to say something is not original and harder to prove they are original. In this case indications are they are the original bolts. So the question still stands: has anyone else seen these bolts?
-
I found the Ford hardware part numbers you referenced, and being that the UBS hardware you seem to have, was introduce in 1968, it is "possible".
But if I was looking at your car as if it was in the "Thoroughbred Class", I would not accept that type of bolt.
Jim
-
Jim,
Once again Thank you.
What is the PN and where did you find it?
As far as "Thoroughbred Class" goes - this car for better or worse cannot be judged necessarily as a hi-production unit in all areas. This is something I have concluded. Having said that take it any way you want: oddball, car built to order or anomaly because of timeframe.
-
What is the PN and where did you find it?
I have seen 55215-S washer(ie: flange) head -also Grade 2. AMK's replacement bolt I believe is a Grade 8 Place bolt.
I looked up the numbers you listed. The Ford measurements are spelled out in the "AMK Guide TO Ford Fasteners, 1955-73".
Jim
-
PN 55215-S is the correct thread specs: 3/8-16 x 1.00, but it is what they term a hex washer head - I always referred to as a flange head. It is Grade 2.
The Ford bolts that I have are Grade 5 and the head base is definitely extended out more (+ UBS markings). Anything even close in the Ford Std & Utility Parts Catalog doesn't com in correct Grade or length.
Do we know if Ford ever issued a recall? Was the Grade 8 Place bolt original equipment-from the doc I have seen the Grade 2 SEMS bolt was original. I do not have a 68 MPL. I have only a seat recall on my car.
I always thought Ford made or bought fasteners by the drum, especially for use on the engine assembly line.
I would like to get some feedback from some of the FE experienced guys on the forum.
-
I did a little more research.
The AMK Guide to Ford Fasteners defines Ford UBS Bolts on 141-144. The closest Ford PN to my crankshaft bolts is 56140-S It is a Grade 5 UBS Bolt 3/8-16x1.00. My bolts are not fully threaded w/o a lead point. The Ford PN is a partial thread. AMK does not carry this bolt but does carry UBS fasteners - just do a search on UBS. What is interesting with the UBS Bolt is that they are undercut under the thread (thats the grip). Looks machined to me.
Per AMK there were standard applications for UBS fasteners; looks like all 68 and later. Some were Boss 302 intake, Boss 429 Motor Mount, 302/351C intake, 68 Ford bumpers.
All UBS Bolts have a Ford 56NNN Standard Part designation (5 digits indicates a Std PN as opposed to a special PN). The Ford Standard Parts Catalog (around 600 Pages) that I have predates this block of fasteners. This Catalog was a internal reference doc I doubt if you saw it at a dealer or anywhere other than a engineering facility. I would say this is where Max (AMK) did his homework.
Does anyone have a Standard Parts Catalog updated to 66-68 era???
-
This picture is of a July 68 428 that has a known history and 21k miles.
-
Thank you.
That looks like the 42998-S8 Grade 8 Place Bolt (listed in MPC Final Issue). That answers a few questions. There was no recall, maybe a running production line change.
I don't know what the 68 MPC indicates but other doc has the G2 SEMs bolt.
All indications are the UBS bolts I have were specified for the engine. My engine is a March 30 assembly date.
-
Thank you.
That looks like the 42998-S8 Grade 8 Place Bolt (listed in MPC Final Issue). That answers a few questions. There was no recall, maybe a running production line change.
I don't know what the 68 MPC indicates but other doc has the G2 SEMs bolt.
All indications are the UBS bolts I have were specified for the engine. My engine is a March 30 assembly date.
As I posted before in reply #3 it was typical to see the same bolt(reply 15) on 67, 68 and 69 FE engines used in Mustangs. That indicates this odd bolt in discussion was more of a blip ,anomaly or substitution then a running production line change. Normally the running production line changes go from one style to another from that time forward. It would be unusual to go back and forth in usage. Also running production line change imply's a much higher usage which doesn't seem to be the case here. From all of the evidence if this bolt was used from the factory it was for a very short time . A substitution for what ever reason is a more accurate description of why this bolt happened IMO.
-
That looks like the 42998-S8 Grade 8 Place Bolt (listed in MPC Final Issue). That answers a few questions. There was no recall, maybe a running production line change.
Looking at earlier MPCs I don't see any bolts for these applications identified with a number starting with a "4" so that may suggest that the part listed was a replacement rather than the original application.
In the Aug 69 version found no bolts for 68 FE balancer to crank pulley applications except for ones with cast iron pulleys and those cases the specifications were 3/8"- 16 x1"
-
Bob, I agree with you the Place Bolt is common (and orig in 68 and subsequent years). Ford doc indicates the original bolts are PN 374525-S8 Grade 2 SEMs- Jim has 374575-S8 in the hdw spreadsheet.
Jeff-not sure why the 42998-S8 Place Bolt wouldn't show up in earlier MPLs.
I am not suggesting the Grade 5 UBS Bolts on my car were a running change. I am suggesting there was a change to the 42998-S8 Place Bolt (it is in Ford Doc).
-
Bob, I agree with you the Place Bolt is common (and orig in 68 and subsequent years). Ford doc indicates the original bolts are PN 374525-S8 Grade 2 SEMs- Jim has 374575-S8 in the hdw spreadsheet.
Jeff-not sure why the 42998-S8 Place Bolt wouldn't show up in earlier MPLs.
This is one of the reasons I dislike trying to use engineering and part numbers to confirm or use as proof about how our cars were built. Just being honest and u front.
Looking back through the MPCs I have access to including the final 75 version. The part number you listed 42998 shows up not in the parts list but in the illustrations and I found it interesting that where I found the number and the illustrations was in the AC section of the MPCs. Then if you look at all the pages that cover 67 and 68 FE and for different car models you will find the 42998-S8 as well as a few other numbers identifying the crank pulley to balancer bolts and even different number depending on if it is a hang-on style or assembly line. What IMHO a rabbit hole that is not likely going to prove anything about the specific bolt you show.
-
Bob, I agree with you the Place Bolt is common (and orig in 68 and subsequent years). Ford doc indicates the original bolts are PN 374525-S8 Grade 2 SEMs- Jim has 374575-S8 in the hdw spreadsheet.
Jeff-not sure why the 42998-S8 Place Bolt wouldn't show up in earlier MPLs.
I am not suggesting the Grade 5 UBS Bolts on my car were a running change. I am suggesting there was a change to the 42998-S8 Place Bolt (it is in Ford Doc).
As far as I have seen the 42998-S8 Place bolt like seen in reply #15 has been used from the beginning of the FE engine in the 67 Mustang on forward so it is a little inaccurate to say " there was a change to the 42998-S8 Place Bolt" when that style bolt was used from the beginning. This may be a example of what is written in the MPC vs. what happened in the real world on the assemblyline.
-
Bob, I agree with you the Place Bolt is common (and orig in 68 and subsequent years). Ford doc indicates the original bolts are PN 374525-S8 Grade 2 SEMs- Jim has 374575-S8 in the hdw spreadsheet.
I looked up my Mustang Hardware Spreadsheets history files from 2015 and 374575-S8 does not appear, not does it appear in the index od the AMK Guide to Ford Fasteners. The Ford hardware part number initially used in the spreadsheets for this application has been 374525-S8.
Jim
-
This is one of the reasons I dislike trying to use engineering and part numbers to confirm or use as proof about how our cars were built. Just being honest and u front.
I'll be honest too. These Mustangs were built to formal documentation by the Ford Motor Company, released and controlled, by several different engineering design groups well before the first Mustang, or any other Ford product rolled down the assembly line. You call it an "engineering part number" to differentiate from a "service part number", which I continually refer to as a "service stock number". Both types of numbers will get you the part you need, eventually. The closest documents depicting how Mustang were actually assembled have been made available to us and they are the Osborn Productions Mustang Assembly Manuals - and quite frankly, we are lucky to have them. We know that changes were made either on the assembly line by line engineers, or by the original engineering groups. Some of those changes have been included in revisions to the Assembly Line documentation, other changes we simply do not have access to. You want to take a picture of an "oddity", please do. Make sure you state it may or may not be a standard deviation. These crankshaft pulley bolts fit the latter.
Jim
-
This is one of the reasons I dislike trying to use engineering and part numbers to confirm or use as proof about how our cars were built. Just being honest and u front.
Looking back through the MPCs I have access to including the final 75 version. The part number you listed 42998 shows up not in the parts list but in the illustrations and I found it interesting that where I found the number and the illustrations was in the AC section of the MPCs. Then if you look at all the pages that cover 67 and 68 FE and for different car models you will find the 42998-S8 as well as a few other numbers identifying the crank pulley to balancer bolts and even different number depending on if it is a hang-on style or assembly line. What IMHO a rabbit hole that is not likely going to prove anything about the specific bolt you show.
Jeff, here is the reference to the Gr 8 Place Bolt in MPL Final Issue. It is included w/crankshaft damper.
-
As far as I have seen the 42998-S8 Place bolt like seen in reply #15 has been used from the beginning of the FE engine in the 67 Mustang on forward so it is a little inaccurate to say " there was a change to the 42998-S8 Place Bolt" when that style bolt was used from the beginning. This may be a example of what is written in the MPC vs. what happened in the real world on the assemblyline.
FWIW in the MPL attachment I just posted the MPL indicates 68 as the first yr not 67 for the GR 8 Place Bolt.
I will post my references to the other PNs to validate change (in doc anyway) as time allows.
-
I looked up my Mustang Hardware Spreadsheets history files from 2015 and 374575-S8 does not appear, not does it appear in the index od the AMK Guide to Ford Fasteners. The Ford hardware part number initially used in the spreadsheets for this application has been 374525-S8.
Jim
I think I referred to replys or notes wrong on 374575-S8 or it was a typo. I was checking various docs but it doesn't make a difference because both bolts were GR2 (as I recall) SEMs bolts and not a GR 8 Place Bolt.
-
I'll be honest too. These Mustangs were built to formal documentation by the Ford Motor Company, released and controlled, by several different engineering design groups well before the first Mustang, or any other Ford product rolled down the assembly line. You call it an "engineering part number" to differentiate from a "service part number", which I continually refer to as a "service stock number". Both types of numbers will get you the part you need, eventually. The closest documents depicting how Mustang were actually assembled have been made available to us and they are the Osborn Productions Mustang Assembly Manuals - and quite frankly, we are lucky to have them. We know that changes were made either on the assembly line by line engineers, or by the original engineering groups. Some of those changes have been included in revisions to the Assembly Line documentation, other changes we simply do not have access to. You want to take a picture of an "oddity", please do. Make sure you state it may or may not be a standard deviation. These crankshaft pulley bolts fit the latter.
Jim
Fastener PN's are a world their own-I don't think you can discuss them in same context as most parts-but there is a structured organization to them. The big Standard Catalog is the place a design engineer would go for a fastener. If it wasn't in the Standard Catalog-there was a process. Purchasing needed a PN to obtain. For those of us who spent time in a large product oriented engineering org - there are standards and they are seldom if ever bypassed.
With respect to hobbyist activities: I learned a long time ago to refer to the Assembly Line Doc if you want the closest to reality, BUT - I haven't necessarily the same opinion/comfort level with the Engine Assembly Manual yet.
REMEMBER - my post was identifying an oddity (GR5 UBS Bolt) to see if others saw it; I ran into this GR2 SEMs vs GR8 Place Bolt observation.