ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1968 Mustang => Topic started by: 68 S Code on December 04, 2011, 10:13:52 PM
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I have the dash cluster out again so I figured i would try to get the clock working. Heard that a common problem is lack of lubrication and or dirt on the clock mechanism. I got the rear cover off and although it looked pretty clean i gave it a cleaning with some special stuff made for TV's which is supposed to work on these things. Now the gears move freely to set the time with the adjusting pin so things things are moving up. i also noticed this brass plate start swinging back and forth at one time for a few moments after I turned the needles. I took a 6 volt battery and touched the stud on the back and heard it go TICK. Saw the second hand move 1 second. But that was it. Wondeing if my 12 ga wires are too heavy for 6 volts? Tried two 1 1/2 volt D cells but got nothing. Any ideas out there? Read that if you install a quartz repop you may get dinged in judging because it doesnt make the ticking sound and second hand sweeps across versus ticking off the seconds. I could go repop but figued I'd try working on the original first.
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Rich the lubrication and poor contact on the rewind points are usually the problem. It is a 12 volt clock. Ground the clock body and use battery voltage. You can tell a quartz by the smooth movement. Marty
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If 12 volts required then I've been fooling with the wrong power source. I will try it off the battery in the car. The points are spread apart at least 1/4"? Thanks. Have you ever tried filing down the points?
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If the balance wheel is still in its bearings, the problem is usually the contacts. After 20 or 30 years the contacts get burned out. The remedy is to use a contact burnishing tool. It looks like a file with a curved end (about 1/2 inch curve is the one I use) that has about the equalivent of 600 grit sand paper. Don't use sandpaper. You need to remove the build-up on the contacts. Very seldom does the coil "open" but it could.
Here's the operation of the clock: when the contacts "make", electrical current from the car's battery (12v) actuate a coil which draws the movable arm of the contact in a semicircle away from the fixed contact. A small coil spring pulls the arm back down, delayed by a rachet mechinism controlled by the balance wheel. That's what you see spinning first right then left. It should take about 40 to 45 seconds to cycle the contacts back to start all over again. A series of gears take the motion and move the second, minute and hour hands. If you lift the movable arm up you can see the operation if everything else is working good.
Jim
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im you used a lot of names fo components that Im not really familiar with. I'll post a pic tomorrow and we can go from there. You seem to have the parts and operation down so lets see what i can do with your help.
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If the balance wheel is still in its bearings, the problem is usually the contacts. After 20 or 30 years the contacts get burned out. The remedy is to use a contact burnishing tool. It looks like a file with a curved end (about 1/2 inch curve is the one I use) that has about the equalivent of 600 grit sand paper. Don't use sandpaper. You need to remove the build-up on the contacts. Very seldom does the coil "open" but it could.
Here's the operation of the clock: when the contacts "make", electrical current from the car's battery (12v) actuate a coil which draws the movable arm of the contact in a semicircle away from the fixed contact. A small coil spring pulls the arm back down, delayed by a rachet mechinism controlled by the balance wheel. That's what you see spinning first right then left. It should take about 40 to 45 seconds to cycle the contacts back to start all over again. A series of gears take the motion and move the second, minute and hour hands. If you lift the movable arm up you can see the operation if everything else is working good.
Jim
+1 . The most prevalent cause of the contacts to burn up or to get corrosion is when the battery gets low and the contacts which open and close with rewinding cycle every couple of minutes sit and arc because of too little of voltage causing a insulating barrier to develop. Disconnecting the battery doesn't harm them but letting your battery run down besides harming the battery harms the clock mechanism. Bob
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If you want to do some homework, try - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_watch
Jim
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Hi s code, Your clock is basically a wind up clock, that winds itself up when the two contacts close. If you carefully lift the movable contact away from the fixed contact you will in a sense wind the clock and it should run without power until the two contacts come together again. If it wont run, I'd strongly suggest taking it to a professional clockmaker and have it checked out. I've repaired (or converted) hundreds of these and if they won't run, once wound, they usually just need cleaning and oiling. (very seldom do they wear out, as it's usually burned contacts or a burnt up coil that stops them from winding) as mentioned above, what usually kills the clocks is letting the battery in the car die to the point where the coil can't generate enough of an impulse to wind the clock and open the contacts. The contacts will will stay closed and either arc and burn up the contacts or cause the winding coil to stay energized, heating up and burning up the coil.
It sounds like the coil in your clock is ok (the tick you heard when you connected voltage to the clock was the clock trying to wind) So if you want to try and fix it yourself get some clock oil from a local shop, and carefully put a drop of oil at the end of each gear where the arbor meets the plate, up to and including the balance wheel (the wheel that rocks back and forth), manually lift the movable contact and see if the clock runs. Be really careful of the small, coiled spring mounted above the balance, if you bend the spring so it touches itself or anything else, or get any oil on the spring, the clock will run fast or not at all. If the clock runs, then clean the contacts and see if it keeps time.. WARNING.... DON'T spray any lubricant (WD40, CRC, ect on) the movement as you'll get oil on everything and you'll have to have the clock cleaned all over again. Parts are not available for the clock so if the coil or the contacts are burned, you'll have to find another, better clock to start with. If it were me, I'd buy a conversion kit from ISI http://clocksandgauges.com/ (http://clocksandgauges.com/) if your clock was made by Borg (check the back of the clock) or have them convert it to quartz if it was made by another manufacturer (DIY kits are not available for other manufacturers). It will keep way better time than the old movt, and won't burn up again. If you want your original clock restored (not quarts) they can do that too. They manufacture the kits that most of the clock guys use to restore the clocks and have a huge supply of NOS clocks and parts. Keep in mind that an NOS clock will burn up just as fast if you let your battery die..
Just my professional opinion..... John
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The guys you mentioned are about an hour away. I will call them thanks.
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Oh oh. I did a little reading last friday about a guy who rebuilt some clocks and he mentioned taking off the back cover and spraying down the internals with a Radio Shack Cleaner and Lubricant made for Electro Mechanical Devices-especially drum type TV tuners. Lubricates contacts and controls. So I did just that.....before posting this thread. Now it seems that all I wanted to do was put a drop on some of the gears. Hit it pretty well with this pressurized spray. The gears for adjusting the time now move freely without sticking. I did get the tick with the 6 volt battery after the spraying was done. Haven't tried Marty's suggestion of 12 v power source yet. Hope I didn't overdo it. Here are some pics of what I got. As you can see the contacts are spread apart right now. Guessing close to 1/4" but maybe less. Once applying power the contacts should snap shut? Immediately or after 30 seconds?
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At one point after spraying and adjusting the needles I thought I noticed the copper looking wheel in the second pictures oscillating back and forth.
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It takes about 40 to 50 seconds to complete one relay-contact cycle.
Jim
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If the contacts are spread apart, the clock should be running. At this point, you might as well keep spraying! :D
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Well maybe its got enough oil (OVER EVERYTHING REGRETFULLY) so I will give it a go with battery power today. I presume I cant hurt anything at this point.
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What I am trying to say is that if you have open contacts and the clock isn't running, there is some mechanical problem that hooking it to a battery won't "fix". The 12V flows when the contacts are closed, which activates the solenoid (or is it really a coil?) and winds the mechanism, throwing the contacts apart. As the spring winds down, the contacts get closer together until they touch again, current flows, and the process starts over. With the contacts apart (as you reported), connecting it to 12V won't do anything because the circuit is open. It is only when the contacts/points are touching that the coil/solenoid is energized.
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Now I understand. The points should be in the closed position. Something is causing them to be stuck open. Ive sprayed it quite a bit. I don't know if I should limit where I spray it at this point? Maybe I'll call the clock guys.
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Sprayed it a little more and nothing happened. Tried connecting it to the battery and again nothing happened. Talked with the repair guys. Found out its $70 to clean and try to get my movement to work. If it doesnt they can swap it out for another working used movement but thats $95. They can install a new quartz movement at $100 or I can just buy the quartz movement and DIY for $70 plus another $11 in shipping. I also checked around and Virginia Mustang sells a repop with quartz movement for 99. Maybe I just look at my watch or phone if I want to know the time.
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No not buy the reproduction you will not be happy. At least thats what I have heard. Marty
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The reason i will not be happy is that the second hand sweeps versus ticking or is it just poor quality? i read a post by a guy who paid 100 to have it restored and within a year it kicked out again. Said he should have just gone quartz. Hate to butcher up the original with quartz. Thought the repop might be the better way to go.
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I had an original Rally Pac on a 66 Fastback that drained the battery, actually several, while it sat. It was the clock that did it. Let's say that I have several Mustangs (and other vehicles too) so daily driving was not practical. On another car I had a repro crystal controlled clock in the Rally Pac and had no problem with the battery, and it kept good time too. I have two Mustangs in my garage right now with original Rally Pacs, and I use battery disconnect switches on both because the clocks kill the batteries, if you don't keep them charged, as in trickle. Just a bit of info.
Jim
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The reason i will not be happy is that the second hand sweeps versus ticking or is it just poor quality? i read a post by a guy who paid 100 to have it restored and within a year it kicked out again. Said he should have just gone quartz. Hate to butcher up the original with quartz. Thought the repop might be the better way to go.
Millons of mustang clocks were built and worked for many years. I would say that is a good testamnial. Collector cars sit idle much of the time and has been stated here before if the battery goes dead besides damaging the internals of the battery the running dead damaged the internals of the clock. That would be the most likely culprit of your poster guy I suspect. If you don't let your battery go dead you should be fine. You should keep a battery tender on your collector car anyway to preserve your battery. That is info and discussion for another thread (others reading can do a search). Bob
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I have four of these clocks working in cars and never disconnect the battery in any of them. No problems. Maybe I've just been lucky. I am sort of hung up on the "tic-tic" of an original clock.
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I like the idea of the ticking clock and originality. So much so that i just purchased a set of original rear seat to replace the perfect TMI covered rear seat in the car. I guess I like the look of the original grain. So a quartz clock although easier to worrk with would probably bother me. I read that you can somehow wire in a switch and hide it so as to disconnect the power to the clock to keep it from draining the battery. So that is an option but not sure how thats done. Keep 3 cars on a battery tenders all the time now so thats not an issue.
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Concours Group,
I am a new user to Concours Mustang Forum. A recent 1967 Mustang Coupe purchase has led me to this group.
My thanks to 68 S Code for posting the clock question. Also, thanks to Bob Gaines and 70cj428 for your contributions. I can report today that because of this Post...my clock is now running successfully after 30 years of inactivity! It is is pretty much spot-on time.
Thanks to all for this great information...superb photos!
Mike
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How did you get it to work?
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I like the idea of the ticking clock and originality. So much so that i just purchased a set of original rear seat to replace the perfect TMI covered rear seat in the car. I guess I like the look of the original grain. So a quartz clock although easier to worrk with would probably bother me. I read that you can somehow wire in a switch and hide it so as to disconnect the power to the clock to keep it from draining the battery. So that is an option but not sure how thats done. Keep 3 cars on a battery tenders all the time now so thats not an issue.
If you have battery tenders or battery tender juniors on the cars already then you don't need a switch to disconnect the clock . The clock will only run down a good battery that is fully charged down if connected for a month or more. With a tender it is a non issue. Bob
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I like the idea of the ticking clock and originality. So much so that i just purchased a set of original rear seat to replace the perfect TMI covered rear seat in the car. I guess I like the look of the original grain. So a quartz clock although easier to worrk with would probably bother me. I read that you can somehow wire in a switch and hide it so as to disconnect the power to the clock to keep it from draining the battery. So that is an option but not sure how thats done. Keep 3 cars on a battery tenders all the time now so thats not an issue.
Probably a good idea to just disconnect the battery if you are going to leave the car sit anyway. I worry about electrical fires.
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Probably a good idea to just disconnect the battery if you are going to leave the car sit anyway. I worry about electrical fires.
Even though a electrical fire is not impossible it is highly improbable on a well mantained 65-70 Mustang. If it makes one feel more secure by all means . The down side is everytime you loosen and retighten that original or reproduction battery cable you lessen it's life too. The battery will still need to be on a tender regardless of if connected or not connected. Bob
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Even though a electrical fire is not impossible it is highly improbable on a well mantained 65-70 Mustang. If it makes one feel more secure by all means . The down side is everytime you loosen and retighten that original or reproduction battery cable you lessen it's life too. The battery will still need to be on a tender regardless of if connected or not connected. Bob
I agree, but it makes me more comfortable. :)
Getting off topic but...
I plan on using one of those battery disconnect switches. It would reduce the number of times you take the cable on and off and you can still pull it off for the shows. Although I do see a few people who leave them on for the show. Do those people lose points for doing that?
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I agree, but it makes me more comfortable. :)
Getting off topic but...
I plan on using one of those battery disconnect switches. It would reduce the number of times you take the cable on and off and you can still pull it off for the shows. Although I do see a few people who leave them on for the show. Do those people lose points for doing that?
In a concours venue the battery disconnect is missing the point of the effort. It depends on if the judge over looks it or not . I haven't had to make that call with the cars I have judged over the years but would definitely do so if faced with the choice. Bob
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Did some checking and found another guy locally who rebuilds these clock. Half the price of the one which was recommended. Also found another guy down in Tennessee who sells reconditioned movements at a reasonable price. Looks like I will give these at try before switching over to quartz. For now I will stay away from repop. Let you guys know how it turns out.
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My process was pretty straightforward to get the clock going. Removed it from cluster. Sprayed a little contact cleaner on the gear mechanism. Then with a horologist oil bottle...lightly oiled all pinion points. Before I was done with the lubrication job...the clock started on its own. It was pretty cool to observe. My contact points were in the almost OPEN position which told me the clock simply stopped due to dirt/dust. The contact points were not in bad shape. This is a pretty nice little time piece. I think this took about 15 minutes or so to complete once out of the car.
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Hi guys, Just FYI, when it comes to clock repair, cheaper may not be better, try and get some references before leaving your clock for repair. In my 30+ years as a professional clockmaker I've seen a ton of stuff screwed up by inexperienced/sloppy repair people, especially car clocks as they were very inexpensive clock movements to begin with and were never designed to be dissassembled and serviced. I recommended ISI in my post above as I've used alot of their conversion movements in the past and had very few problems, but I'm in no way affiliated with them....... I can tell you that a quality quartz conversion in your original clock results in a MUCH better clock than an overhauled or even NOS original, It will keep much better time using almost no power so you won't have to worry about drain on the battery, and low voltage won't damage the clock. Once installed, the conversion is almost undetectable with the exception on the second hand motion. A quartz clock's second hand moves with an abrupt jump every second, the original balance wheel mechanism moves the second hand in more of a sweeping motion. I know that the vette guys can lose points in concours judging having a quartz clock, but I'm not sure at what level it becomes an issue in mustang classes, maybe one of the judges here can chime in.................
As for disconnecting the battery, I personally feel that your chances of a spontanious electrical fire in a well maintained/restored car are extremely low, but being able to move the car quickly is pretty important. ( I still do clockwork by appt. only, but I became a professional Firefighter in Phila, PA when I was paying 2100.00 a month for healthcare, we had a job about a year ago where a 66 mustang A code 4 speed convertible and a street rod burnt to the ground cause they were parked in by another, immobile car in a body shop) I'll stop rambling now,...John
PS. Disconnecting the battery may be a good idea on a rimblow car with an old switch, I've had 2 cars over the years start spontainously blowing the horn while parked cause the switch shorted :o
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John your response surprised me as I would have thought the opposite on the movement and how the second hand either swept or ticked off the seconds. Well I will do a little investigation on these other less expensive guys before I leave the clock. Thanks for the info on ISI. I spoke with Lori a few days ago.
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Well the clock is ticking....literally. One of the guys I mentioned said to stop by and see his home shop and he could at least look at it. Works out of his basement and has been fixing clocks and gauges for 25 years. Had about a dozen clocks under testing when I showed up. He took the cover off, took the three screws off to remove the coil and one point. Tried to get the balance wheel to swing and noticed that lever(?) must have popped off when I sprayed it. Popped it back on, cleaned a point, reassembled, hooked it on the test stand and adjusted it within a second of real running time. I stood around for an hour while he tested and adjusted talking about t-birds, mercs, etc. Once satisfied he Popped on the cover and said $20 bucks. Back in business. He strongly recommended the quartz but said give it a go mechanically for now. Cluster goes back in tomorrow. By the way the four numbers on the back of the case are decoded as such. First 3 numbers are the day of the year and last number is year. So 3457 is 345th day of 67.
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Clock installed in cluster. Cluster installed in car. Battery connected and clock was ticking away. Thanks for all the help.