ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: Brian Conway on January 13, 2014, 02:56:15 PM
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Have the dash out and would like to explore a little and maybe learn a few thing from some of you guys ? Fog light switch is out and identified by a C5ZB-15A214-B FOMOCO ink stamped on the one wire. It does have the Flat spot on the threaded bezel mount. The dash however is just a round hole. In the area behind the AMP gauge the harness bundle has a paper tag C5ZB 15A006A FoMoCo C.P.C. The harness behind the GAS gauge has a paper tag;C5ZB 11328-B SX FoMoCo. Further; the tail lights DO NOT light up when the fog lights are flipped on. The question: Factory GT Fog Light switch and harness's or Dealer installed ? Any other hallmarks to look for or stop here ? Brian
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Brian,
For 1965 the fog light wiring was part of the under dash harness, and part of the engine compartment lighting harness. The switch part number, C5ZB-15A214-A, is correct for 1965; the hole is suspect but most likely legitimate, the book say make a hole, not a "D" hole ; C5ZB-15A006-A is the part number for clock wiring; C5ZB-11328-A fits into the group of numbers for starters as defined in Ford Car Parts (1975 ed) so it is a mystery. SX and C.P.C. are probably manufactures IDs. Is part number C5ZB-11328-A marked on a wire? I don't see the paper tag in your picture for this item.
Most add on Fog Lamps use the 1966 style switch, 1966 style under dash wiring, 1966 style under hood wiring, but the same circuit breaker. I think you may have a mix.
Jim
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Thank you for taking a look and the sharing the info and your thoughts. The C5ZB 11328-B is on the tag in the last picture to the left side of the cluster opening. The C5ZB 11328-B is on the backside, of the Tag, and I had to use a mirror to get the numbers.
I have read in the past and heard again recently that when the fog lights only are turned on they also light up the rear lights. Mine do not do that. Should they ? My fog lights only function when the headlight switch is pulled out. An Alarm system was installed sometime back and the installer took some liberties with the wiring. Thanks, Brian
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Brian,
The tail lights should come on with the fog lamp switch, I think my 65 Fastback does, it was built 5/11/65 in San Jose. Getting to the car to see if that's true is a bit difficult, a 66 Fastback is in the way sort of temporarily disassembled. I could not find a 65 wiring diagram for the fog light circuit in either the assembly manuals or the service manual.
I see the C5ZB-11328-B tag in lower corner, and all I can say is take another look. That block of numbers, 11328, falls in the starters group and that don't compute. I looked in the 65 Electrical manual looking for "close" numbers (xx328) but there was nothing. What options do you have?
(And I detest amateur wiring specialists, as you are discovering on your own.)
Jim
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Hi Brian,
One thing that I couldn't see in the pictures is the plug on the fog light switch. A factory '65 fog lamp switch will have 2 female plugs and 1 male plug. I grabbed a quick picture of a '65 style fog switch reproduction part so you can see what I'm talking about.
The '66 style (and typically the dealer added version) used 2 male plugs and 1 female plug.
PS - Provided you have a complete wiring harness setup correctly the rear taillights will come on when you turn on the fog lights (with the headlights off). I have a '65 GT as well.
Regards,
Ron
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Thanks for the lighting info and these lights don't light up independent of the headlights. About the C5ZB 11328-B tag; had a second look and it may read 11B281-B . From a past discussion about license plates I know your car is close to mine date wise. Nice to know their are a couple of these cars and owners here to compare notes with. My 65 is a basic GT no frills or extras except the Pony Interior. A better picture of the Plug shows it to be the two female one male configuration ?
I think about removing the alarm system and then I see the wiring spaghetti mess and feel like leaving well enough alone. Thanks, Brian
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Got a picture of the harness tag in question. Reading backwards and in a mirror. What do you get ? Brian
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The mystery part number is (wait for it) C5ZB-17B587-B which is the windshield wiper switch to motor harness for a single speed wiper.
Now for basic troubleshooting. If you have a 12V trouble light, the type that looks like a pen with a bulb on the top, a sharp point at the other and a 24 to 36 inch wire from the bulb end that has an alligator clip at the other end, you can see if you have power to the tail lights. If you don't have one, get one, it makes electrical life easy.
For all this you need to have the battery hooked up, the three prong connector to the switch disconnected and maybe someone looking at the tail lights (it helps with two people).
1. Find the hot pin in the connector - clip the alligator clip to something metal close by, then use the sharp point on each of the three contacts, pins or sockets, of the connector that goes to the main harness. When the bulb lights up, that's the hot contact. Do all three contacts.
2. Clip the alligator clip to that hot contact (pin or socket and MAKE SURE THAT THE CLIP DOES NOT TOUCH METAL), and then place the sharp point in one of the other contacts. The fog lights will come on with one of those contacts, the remaining one is the circuit that goes to the tail lights.
Some warnings: don't keep the test lamp in the circuit too long; the fog and or tail lights will not be as bright as normal; you may burn out the test lamp bulb. If the fog and tail lamps both come on, the problem may be in the switch.
Jim
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Gee can clearly see that now. I do have a circuit tester and will print this page for the next time I am in there. I really don't like fooling around with this fragile aged wiring. Thanks again. Brian
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[quote author=jwc66k For 1965 the fog light wiring was part of the under dash harness, and part of the engine compartment lighting harness wiring, Jim
Just to be clear; Does that mean all 65 Mustangs or GT mustangs only ? Brian
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Just to be clear; Does that mean all 65 Mustangs or GT mustangs only ? Brian
For 1965 only, all factory fog light equipped cars, whether they had the GT (PIO) package, or the deluxe interior, had the fog light wiring included. Many deluxe interior cars did not have the fog lights but had the wiring.
Jim
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Thank you for taking a look and the sharing the info and your thoughts. The C5ZB 11328-B is on the tag in the last picture to the left side of the cluster opening. The C5ZB 11328-B is on the backside, of the Tag, and I had to use a mirror to get the numbers.
I have read in the past and heard again recently that when the fog lights only are turned on they also light up the rear lights. Mine do not do that. Should they ? My fog lights only function when the headlight switch is pulled out. An Alarm system was installed sometime back and the installer took some liberties with the wiring. Thanks, Brian
Brian,
The tail lights do come on with the fog lights on my 5/15/65 SJ fastback GT.
Steve
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Thanks guys. My fog light switch does not function correctly and for now I will be satisfied with the way it is. I suspect the problem lies somewhere in that huge gob of electrical tape. So until I have a good reason to open that can of worms I will have to be happy with what I have. Brian
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Thanks guys. My fog light switch does not function correctly and for now I will be satisfied with the way it is. I suspect the problem lies somewhere in that huge gob of electrical tape. So until I have a good reason to open that can of worms I will have to be happy with what I have. Brian
If you are referring to the large bundle next to the steering column, that's the way it is supposed to be (the wiring from the turn signal switch) and has nothing to do with the foglamp wiring.
My guess is that the switch itself is bad, particularly if it is original. Very few original switches that I've seen work correctly now.
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If you have the switch out, at least where the back is accessible, you can use a small jumper (a "U" bent metal paper clip works fine) on the terminals to check out the light circuit. What the switch does is connects 12V to both the fog lamps and tail lamps, so, based on Ford's practice (and most other circuits with power in them), the socket in the harness plug is power and the pin in the switch connector supplies that power to the switch. That would be the top wire in your picture, so with a faithful observer at the rear of your car, jump that contact at the back of the switch to either of the two other contacts and see. Again, don't allow the jumper to hit body metal. If the tail lights work (and you can solder) get back to us.
Jim
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Thanks for explaining how to check this out. Yes, I did mean that great gob of tape nice to know it is stock and I won't be unraveling it. Question; with the key in the ACC or On positions and I switch the fog lights ON. No response/lights. With the key in the ACC or ON positions and the headlights on the fog lights do come on when toggled. Doesn't that indicate the switch's fog light circuit is OK ? Right now the switch only has power when the headlights or running lights are on. Brian
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Thanks for explaining how to check this out. Yes, I did mean that great gob of tape nice to know it is stock and I won't be unraveling it. Question; with the key in the ACC or On positions and I switch the fog lights ON. No response/lights. With the key in the ACC or ON positions and the headlights on the fog lights do come on when toggled. Doesn't that indicate the switch's fog light circuit is OK ? Right now the switch only has power when the headlights or running lights are on. Brian
Normal power to the foglamps is through a circuit breaker that has as its input power a battery-sourced line. The CB acts as a "fuse". What your condition indicates is that either you do not have the CB wired up to the foglamp system or the CB is blown: your foglamps simply are not getting power. When you turn the headlights on, the foglamps feed into the rear running lights---hence the headlights are now feeding power to the foglamps through the switch itself.
Be careful with the wiring around the CB. One line is from the foglamp subharness (it accepts power from the CB); the other line is always hot and is not fused. Both wires terminate in ring connectors. The wire colors are light blue/black stripe. When working on the foglamp CB, it is always best to disconnect the battery to ensure there are no shorts.
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Concerning the FOG LIGHT CIRCUT. I have done a little research and have determined;
1. At the dash harness side there is NO CONSTANT POWER.
2. With the parking lights engaged the outboard male post, solid black w/C5ZB far right, is HOT
3. With the circuit tester connected to the Hot post and probing the center male post, grey wire , probe lights up.
4. With the circuit tester connected to the hot post and probing the male, Lt. blue w/black stripe, no response
This is the OE harness and I have not fiddled with any of it until now. So between the battery and the harness plug is a cb/fuse ? Or should I be looking for something else. As mentioned there does not seem to be a schematic for any of this and I do appreciate the help. Brian
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Brian,
The circuit breaker is mounted to the brake support bracket on the right hand side (66 is mounted to the rear of the windshield wiper motor bracket). There should be two blue/black stripe leads attached with screws to two studs on the circuit breaker. Both leads go to the main harness. With the battery installed, the ignition off and the fog lamp switch off, using the test lamp, you should get power to both studs. If you only get power to one stud, the CD is defective.
And, as you surmised, there is no 65 wiring diagram, at least that I haven't found one yet, so I use the 66 version, which is close. The best info is from the 65 Mustang Electrical Assembly Manual.
Jim
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The dash harness wireing appears to be from left to right; Grey w/Black stripe, Solid Grey and Solid Black. The switch harness is Left to right; Black w/Blue stripe, Grey and Solid Black. The fuse block has two fused wires attached; at least one wire appears to be Solid grey w/ Black stripe. Putting a test on the 10 amp block one post tests good the other not. Brian
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The dash harness wireing appears to be from left to right; Grey w/Black stripe, Solid Grey and Solid Black. The switch harness is Left to right; Black w/Blue stripe, Grey and Solid Black. The fuse block has two fused wires attached; at least one wire appears to be Solid grey w/ Black stripe. Putting a test on the 10 amp block one post tests good the other not. Brian
That nails it. One side of the Circuit Breaker (which you call the fuse block) will always be hot (the battery input side). The output should also be hot if the CB is working. As you state the other post is dead, then the CB is dead.
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Well thanks for all the help certainly made the process a lot easier. Reasons for the failed 10 amp circuit breaker ? The only thing it services is the fog light circuit. Should I be looking for something else ? The 65 Wiring Manual does not have the Fog Light Circuit diagram the 66 Manual does. Brian
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Reasons for the failed 10 amp circuit breaker ?
1 - Old age.
2 - Someone shorted the hot fog light lead to ground.
3 - Your PO's wiring prowess.
4 - Gremlins (my favorite).
Jim
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If the hot lead from the battery is connected to the AUX. side of the 10 AMP circuit breaker would that short it out ? Brian
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If the hot lead from the battery is connected to the AUX. side of the 10 AMP circuit breaker would that short it out ? Brian
I think they are bi-directional (like the flasher cans), but I could be wrong. No harm in reversing the leads at this point.
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Some of the stuff I found along the way. A harness tag that fell out from under the dash, a C5ZZ pedal support tag ?, the flat ' D ' spot on the switch, and the 10 Amp. circuit breaker. Brian
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The C5ZZ-6501508-C is the service part number for the brake pedal support, yours may be a replacement, but without the tag, who would know. To make a "D" hole may require a two step process, drill a pilot hole, punch the "D" hole, or a single step "D" punch which seem to be unlikely as it required specials dies. Hence the instruction to "drill a hole" aka round. Convertibles used a different switch mounting.
Run a jumper to either terminal of the circuit breaker from the battery, hook a test lamp clip to the other battery terminal and place the probe on the other CB terminal. If it lights, it may be good. It makes no difference in battery polarity, positive or negative, when using an incandescent bulb type test lamp.
Jim
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Not really interested in a ' D ' hole. Just showing the flat part of this switch is at the bottom. The switch tests good no matter where the battery hot lead is attached. It also reads battery strength, 12.6 when tested with the volt meter on either post. Brian
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OK put the whole shoot-in match back together. Results; two hot posts on the CB. Got a good test light at the dash harness female connection. Connect the switch harness to the dash harness, flip the switch and the CB stops sending power to the dash harness female. Both CB posts are still hot. The switch does test good. So... gotta be the CB ? Brian
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So with the switch off, you have 12V on each side of the CB, right? When you turn the switch on, 12V disappears on the AUX side of the CB? Yeah, the CB is toast...it can't handle any load. A great test would be to get a repro CB and try it in the circuit.
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We have lift off. New CB from NPD and all is as it should be. I suspect disconnecting the battery may have allowed the original CB to reset and just added to my confusion. The original inspection showed the AUX. post to be dead and I should have just gone with that. Brian
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Hey nobody mentioned that the tag light was part of the GT fog light/taillight set up. Brian