ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: midlife on March 09, 2014, 09:42:14 PM
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Today, I refurbished a 1967 non-tach dash harness for my inventory and it was quite unusual---something I haven't seen in about 100 harnesses. The usual connector for the foot-activated wiper switch was not there; instead, four separate wires in correct colors ended up in molded 90* spade connectors, each with a different color molding. At first, I thought someone had spliced these in, but I unwrapped the wires and these appeared to be factory correct. All of the stickers on the harness were long gone.
Is this a very early 67 variant? Does the switch itself have different colors indicating which molded connector goes where?
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I completed a concours restoration on a 67 coupe that had the separate type connectors that you mention. This coupe was a Metuchen built mustang scheduled for build on November 28, 1966. My 67 Metuchen built fastback with a build date of December 10, 1966 had the bakelite or plastic type connector for the wiper/washer switch.
Regards,
Pete Morgan
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Pete:
Do you remember if the receiver of the wire connectors were color coded to help in connecting them properly?
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On the early car harness? Oh yes the 90 degree connectors were color coded as you described.
Regards,
Pete Morgan
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Thought I'd share a Feb 67 switch connector picture for reference. Especially since it still has a like new part number tag. :)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jt-9NJFe-Pw/UyCrklX7SwI/AAAAAAAAE0A/YcHdEQBwbZA/s800/67WW.JPG)
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Pete:
Do you remember if the receiver of the wire connectors were color coded to help in connecting them properly?
Randy, interesting question - I think the folks that replied missed the issue.
Since there are four individual wires, each capable of being installed on any of four terminals, a classic non-idiot proof situation, is there any help in terms of color coding or labels on the pump (receiver) itself? If I recall my math correctly, the number of combinations would be four factorial, or 24 total.
Pictured below is a four individual wire pump installed, followed by pictures of the same pump removed on a bench. I found two other pumps from 67's and they are the same.
I see no indication on how to put the wires back on correctly. I presume one would have to resort to the manual, a picture, or a hand drawn sketch.
But that does not mean that my pump is original, even though I bought from the original owner in 1980 - anything can happen.
Perhaps someone with a one year 67 MPC can look to see if there were any changes, revisions, etc.
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I searched high and low for an early 1967 Cougar harness, I found one. The 4 wire colors are the same early to late, here is a picture showing the individual boot colors.
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w115/CougarCJ/IMG_0899-1028_zps62f8ad46.jpg) (http://s174.photobucket.com/user/CougarCJ/media/IMG_0899-1028_zps62f8ad46.jpg.html)
My wiring diagram only shows the plugversion. I will have my electrical guys map it out tomorrow.
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Excellent. The two black wires are the most confusing: one goes to the wiper switch itself and the other goes to the connector to the wiper motor.
What surprises me is that with all of the 67 harnesses I have in stock and have refurbished (about 120 total), this was the first harness that had the individual wires. I am pretty sure it was a Mustang and not a Cougar harness. If the change-over was approximately 1 December, the ratio of early to late would be much higher than I've seen.
I thought I had seen just about everything one can image in these harnesses, but every once in a while I get surprised. This harness was for my own collection, which I use for measurement purposes when I get a harness that is all cut up and I need to splice in the right length of wiring. I did splice in a standard connector, however, and saved the connector tips just in case.
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The first picture of post #6 with four individual wires is a Dec 15 built Mustang from San Jose.
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Interesting, 4 wires, 5 terminals and no color coding. Sure seems like bad way to do things.... :o
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Interesting, 4 wires, 5 terminals and no color coding. Sure seems like bad way to do things.... :o
Probably recognized by a Ford mechanic at a stealership sometime in late 1966, and the word got back to Ford to implement a multipin connector.
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This is the proper placement of the individual wire boots. One of the black wires goes to the wiper switch, the other goes to the wiper motor.
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w115/CougarCJ/IMG_0920-1028_zps1cdee4ad.jpg) (http://s174.photobucket.com/user/CougarCJ/media/IMG_0920-1028_zps1cdee4ad.jpg.html)
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My Sept. 1966 San Jose convertible has the same color-coded wires as shown in Scott's photo. However, (and to answer one of midlife's original questions) the actual foot switch assembly in my car also had color-coded rivets on the connector prongs as well - see attached photo below...
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Interesting....could it be someone at Ford became aware of a problem? ::)
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So that piqued my interest even more.
7R02C156 has individual wires, but a pump without color coding (but pump might not be original)
7T01C144 has connectorized wires, but a pump with color coding. Go figure.
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Here's my Oct. '66 NJ built '67 coupe. Car was painted back in 1998, so you'll see paint on the wires. From my knowledge, this is the original foot pump. My (late) father in law bought the '67 in 1979 from the original owner.
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Here is a 11-04-66 SJ 67 with the early wiring. Lets try to figure out when the change over happened.
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Here is a 11-04-66 SJ 67 with the early wiring. Lets try to figure out when the change over happened.
Now I am looking into this tonight! I'll guess first, then update with fact. Mine should then be an "individual wire" design too.
It is very possible that the other options might factor in on the exact change over date (with tach vs. w/o tach or with AC vs. w/o AC?)
sheese! ...yet another 1967 anomaly!!! ...wth Ford? How much planning did you (engineers) really do before going to production?????? lol! :D
Richard
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I would suggest the early style as you mentioned. A/C has no effect since the wire harness is completely separate. Not sure about tach, but suspect no effect. Do you need the harness?
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Do you need the harness?
I sure hope not! I'll be pulling it out within a few weeks. The car is coming apart this weekend (engine, trans, fenders & doors) and will be up on the twirler (I hope) within 2 weeks. My plans were if there were any problems with my wiring, I'd be calling the "Pink Flamingo" aka Midlife to fix it.
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I've been called many things in the past, but "Pink Flamingo" is a new one!
I prefer Mid...easy to remember.
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I've been called many things in the past, but "Pink Flamingo" is a new one!
I prefer Mid...easy to remember.
OK ;)
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Hmmmm... ??? Build date 11/2 doesn't seem right, but I know it is original.
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Some updated information. In a previous post I see a picture with part number C7ZB-17664-B, so I took at look at a few MPCs, picture attached. Also I checked the one from my car, and it is a -B as well.
In the January 1967 version, there is a note that says C7ZB-17664-A is what C7ZZ-17664-A is marked as. This same note continues in the August 67 version and is carried on to 1975 as well. There is no -B reference. The MPC is simply a reference point, not gospel. The first picture shows all three MPC versions.
Since we were on the discussion on wiring changes - from individualized color coded plugs to a single connector assembly, I did some digging there. The connection to the W/S washer pump is on harness 14401. In looking at the shop manual, figure 34 shows the later single connector style, which makes sense. Refer to attached picture 4. The MPC lists four different applications - with and without the GT equipment group option (fog lamp), and with and without tach. The 67 MPC lists four part numbers. The 68 MPC takes the four part numbers through two changes, dated 1/3/67 and 4/15/67, resulting in 12 different part numbers. Refer to pictures 2 and 3. Picture 3 is a table I created which is intended to make it easier to follow the changes.
Based on this alone, my guess is that the 1/3/67 change instituted the single connector replacing the individualized plugs. That is based solely on the information described above, and is a starting point for discussion. As always original unrestored cars are needed to validate or correct these assumptions, but it is an area difficult to get a camera on.
Richard's car, built before mine, has the single connector. Mine has individual plug in connectors. Both are SJ cars.
Also on the topic of 14401, my GTA has a single gray wire in parallel with the wrapped harness, but not part of it. I don't see why, then, the MPC would list a different 14401 between non-GT and GT, at least for before 1/3/67.
The answer perhaps is that there was a whole lot of change going on, and it was not worth chasing every last change with MPC revisions. Mechanics can adapt at the point of installation.
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The easiest answer is this is a Supplier Issue.
Marty's 11/4/66 built SJ convertible example has the individual wires with the colored identifier ends and Marty's example is equipped with almost same list of factory options as my 11/2/66 built SJ example, (excepting the Convertible option). My example does have the colored rivets on the pump but nonetheless, has the single plastic connector on the harness.
We already know that Ford used multiple suppliers to build these harnesses. Perhaps some of those suppliers did not have the connector 'in stock' earlier on in the year.
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That is a solid potential. If that as the case I would say that there is no correlation between the pump assembly and wire harness, and any combination would have been possible. Also then the nominal 1/3/67 harness revision would have had one or more different changes that were the basis for the rev.
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I have a late Nov Shelby. The tach harness is original to the vehicle and it is a single connector.
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Excellent. The two black wires are the most confusing: one goes to the wiper switch itself and the other goes to the connector to the wiper motor.
I wonder if these two black wires, if they we're inserted incorrectly into the pump switch plastic connector, if it might prevent the pump switch from activating the motor like it is supposed to.
According to the factory schematic illustration shared earlier and a harness I have on hand, circuit illustrated as circuit #28 Black wire (not #28a) is connected between the two hard plastic connectors of the two switches and on the PUMP connector, circuit #28 is inserted into the hard plastic connector OPPOSITE of the white wire. If I haven't lost you, if you look at the 2nd image supplied below, the black wire at my index finger is the black wire (circuit #28a) that runs to the WIPER MOTOR.
Again, I do not know if by chance the two black wires are connected "reversed" would prevent the washer pump from activating the motor or not (I did not reverse engineer that aspect) BUT I imagine it COULD happen and therefore MAY be an issue.
ALSO: FWIW, the instrument panel wiper switch connector view (or the Ford schematic previously posted) seems to be confusing because the illustration seems to show the wires coming out the face-side of that illustrated connector but the factory harness I have, it is evident the wires all come out the back-side of what that Ford illustration seems to show. Look at attached images for clearing these muddy waters and perhaps you see what I am trying to convey. (NOTE: first image below is the instrument panel mounted wiper switch and the second image below is the firewall mounted washer switch connector).
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I think my restoration came out ok.
Thanks for all the pics!
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I think my restoration came out ok.
Thanks for all the pics!
Looks a little on the "semi-flat" side of semi-gloss to me but the label sure looks nice!
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I shoot most of these pieces so as not to get any glare.
Here is what it looks like if I let the light hit it.
Better?
I do paint things at different gloss levels so the parts don't get a monochromatic look.
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It's good Bill. I think mine came out closer (a bit more shine) to the tone on my Service Replacement, which also matches the picture of my original before paint. It doesn't at all look "flat" black, so I'm sure it's a good "PASS".
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I recreated the Ford wiring diagram in a more functional format. I had to validate the switch functions with a meter, the Ford diagram is horrible.
Here is what I intended to be a easier to interpret schematic for the wiper system. I hope this helps someone out.
This is shown in what I would consider normal state - wipers off, pump pedal not pushed, and wipers in the park position.
If you push the pump, power flows from 763 to 63 and out to the pump. Into the pump on 63A and through the contact (closed when pedal pushed down) out 58A back to the switch. At the switch connector it drops down 58 which is the low speed motor terminal. The motor is grounded through the case, completing the circuit.
Chances are that the pump pedal will not be released at the precise time that the wipers are parked. So in this case power flows from 763 to 63 and down to the motor assembly. Through the park switch (when not parked) out wire 615A and over to the pump. Then through the pump normally closed contact and out terminal 615. To the switch we go into 615 and through the OFF contact of the wiper, flowing out terminal 58. This will provide power to the low speed motor terminal, again grounded to the case. Then the wipers hit the parked position, the park switch flips back to the state shown on the drawing which interrupts the power, stopping the motor in the proper (parked) position.
This is not for the weak hearted 8)
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I recreated the Ford wiring diagram in a more functional format. I had to validate the switch functions with a meter, the Ford diagram is horrible.
Here is what I intended to be a easier to interpret schematic for the wiper system. I hope this helps someone out.
This is shown in what I would consider normal state - wipers off, pump pedal not pushed, and wipers in the park position.
If you push the pump, power flows from 763 to 63 and out to the pump. Into the pump on 63A and through the contact (closed when pedal pushed down) out 58A back to the switch. At the switch connector it drops down 58 which is the low speed motor terminal. The motor is grounded through the case, completing the circuit.
Chances are that the pump pedal will not be released at the precise time that the wipers are parked. So in this case power flows from 763 to 63 and down to the motor assembly. Through the park switch (when not parked) out wire 615A and over to the pump. Then through the pump normally closed contact and out terminal 615. To the switch we go into 615 and through the OFF contact of the wiper, flowing out terminal 58. This will provide power to the low speed motor terminal, again grounded to the case. Then the wipers hit the parked position, the park switch flips back to the state shown on the drawing which interrupts the power, stopping the motor in the proper (parked) position.
This is not for the weak hearted 8)
Wow! I am impressed.
Marty
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I recreated the Ford wiring diagram in a more functional format. I had to validate the switch functions with a meter, the Ford diagram is horrible....
This is not for the weak hearted 8)
Your text and illustration threw me for a loop till I realized that circuits 28 and 28a were renamed 615 and 615a. Now I get it.
*on edit, strike-through added, this bench test has now been performed by me since what was stated in subsequent replies that it does not matter if those black wires were reversed, it has been confirmed on the bench that the reversal of the black wires at the switch, all works normal.
SUMMARY:
The answer as to whether or not IF it might make a difference IF the 'black wires' were reversed at the washer pump bulk connector is:
"YES, it would make a difference if the black wires were connected into the Washer Pump connector backwards by mistake and the results would be that washer pump would not activate the wipers combined with no other ill-effects of the normal operation of the windshield wipers when operated through the dash-mouned winshield wiper switch."
67gta289 (John), I call the circuit numbers "Tomatoes", you call them "Tomattoes". (I was using the schematic provided earlier in the thread, I understand you were using a different, larger "Electrical Manual" for your most recent revised, color schematic ~it all makes sense now).
*on edit, I spoke with 67gta298 about the schematic in a bit more detail outside of the thread ;)
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NOW,
For the EARLY version with the individual connectors. Perhaps a little easier to sort if you have the picture of the color-coded connector ends AND an image of the paint daubs of an EARLY pump switch.
A person trying to perhaps splice an end or connector onto a harness would still have to revert to John's and/or Ford's schematic to sort any unmarked black wire(s) at the Washer Pump connections.
URL=http://s174.photobucket.com/user/CougarCJ/media/IMG_0899-1028_zps62f8ad46.jpg.html](http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w115/CougarCJ/IMG_0899-1028_zps62f8ad46.jpg)[/URL]
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w115/CougarCJ/IMG_0920-1028_zps1cdee4ad.jpg)[/URL]
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Your text and illustration threw me for a loop till I realized that circuits 28 and 28a were renamed 615 and 615a. Now I get it.
SUMMARY:
The answer as to whether or not IF it might make a difference IF the 'black wires' were reversed at the washer pump bulk connector is:
"YES, it would make a difference if the black wires were connected into the Washer Pump connector backwards by mistake and the results would be that washer pump would not activate the wipers combined with no other ill-effects of the normal operation of the windshield wipers when operated through the dash-mouned winshield wiper switch."
67gta289 (John), I call the circuit numbers "Tomatoes", you call them "Tomattoes". (I was using the schematic provided earlier in the thread, I understand you were using a different, larger "Electrical Manual" for your most recent revised, color schematic ~it all makes sense now).
*on edit, I spoke with 67gta298 about the schematic in a bit more detail outside of the thread ;)
I see what happened here. There are (at least) two versions of the wiring diagrams. The one I used that references the 615/615A circuit numbers is from the large 11x17 wiring book. I noticed also that the 763 in that diagram is listed as orange (no stripe). The other (probably older) diagram uses 28/28A instead of 615/615A, but there is no difference in color or function. Don't know what that needed to be changed. At least the drafter made a few bucks on the job. The 763 in the earlier diagram is orange/white stripe, and that is what I have on my car. Again no functional difference.
As far as black wire reversal, not the potential (haha) of reversing them, but the resulting effect, there would be none. Either way, the normally closed contact is still between the two black wires. Do you agree?
If we start flipping the blacks and the white and/or red, now we have a mess on our hands.
I'll take a stab at a troubleshooting guide next
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Here is something I put together quickly - did not even proof read, so if there are suggestions, errors, etc. let me know. Hopefully this helps someone out someday.
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As far as black wire reversal, not the potential (haha) of reversing them, but the resulting effect, there would be none. Either way, the normally closed contact is still between the two black wires. Do you agree?
If we start flipping the blacks and the white and/or red, now we have a mess on our hands.
I'll take a stab at a troubleshooting guide next
I like the troubleshooting guide. I am sure there could be countless other scenarios if wiring was improperly inserted into any of the hard plastic connectors but if a person has the wiring connections correct, it is a good guide for the more likely issues that may occur.
I have since tried an experiment regarding the switching of the two black wires and because your conclusions, I amended my previous reply which stated it would result in "no motor function" if they were reversed. These results also NOW CONFIRMED from a real-world bench test that the wipers will indeed function regardless which order the black wires are connected at the pump switch (as long as they are only reversed in the connector, per the wiring schematics).
I bow down to your research, prowess and findings, my electrical engineer friend ;)
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It should be noted that if you remove the wiper foot switch your wipers will never park.
When you remove (and intend to keep the foot switch out) you need to jump the two black wires at the foot switch plug with a male-to-male spade connector and a short length of wire.
The easiest way to test these things is to get a junk harness and remove the wiper system plugs and wires. All but the 12V lead are already split out within the main harness. You just have to pull them out.
Here, orange is 12v, case of wiper motor is ground, white is the foot switch jumper. Not only does it test out the switch and motor, but resets the wiper to park.
Yes, I realize you have to have a known good switch ...
A friend had a new repro harness and his wipers never did work. It was fairly short work to figure out he had connector plug issues. The originals have plugs in which you can pull out the wires. The repros are molded.
We simply pulled his old harness from the shed, pulled out the old wiper wires/plugs, wrapped them in harness tape and abandoned the repro part of the wiper circuit.
Somewhat like the early cars have a separate wiper harness, so does his!