ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1964 1/2 - 1965 => Topic started by: Greg45 on March 27, 2014, 02:06:06 PM
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I recently discovered an unusual situation with the VIN on my June 65 2+2 K code GT. I verified a couple of years ago that the VIN was on the transmission and the engine. Since I purchased the car new and actually picked it up as it was unloaded from the rail transport, I know it is original.
What I recently noticed is that the VIN on the drivetrain does not match the VIN on the chassis. I'm wondering if there is a recommended way to have this verified or certified or ?? so my daughter won't have a hassle if she ever decides to show it or sell it. The VIN on the door tag is 5F07K754903, fender is 5F09K754903 so they even had trouble keeping those the same. The fender is obviously wrong. The VIN on the engine and transmission is 5F07K757770.
I had to wait close to six months for delivery so I'm guessing they used what was sitting around in Dearborn. Am I concerned about something that is basically irrelevant?
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Classic miss-stamp by Ford on the fender apron.
I wonder if your stamped engine and transmission got mistakenly installed in the other car? Criss-cross.
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The VIN on the door tag is 5F07K754903, fender is 5F09K754903 so they even had trouble keeping those the same. The fender is obviously wrong. The VIN on the engine and transmission is 5F07K757770.
Somebody did something with your VIN as it is entered in the "Mustang Production Guide" as 5F09K754903 and in the 4th edition of "The 289 High Performance Mustang" as 5F09K754903 residing in Iowa. No other info is entered, body type, exterior, interior, DSO etc. 5F07K757770 is not entered.
You do need to review your statement about fender vs door data plate error. Body style 09 in the VIN is for a fastback. Also, a Fastback GT does not have the "2 +2" designation on the fender, the GT badge is located there, and no where else is "2 + 2" used.
Jim
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Somebody did something with your VIN as it is entered in the "Mustang Production Guide" as 5F09K754903 and in the 4th edition of "The 289 High Performance Mustang" as 5F09K754903 residing in Iowa. No other info is entered, body type, exterior, interior, DSO etc. 5F07K757770 is not entered.
You do need to review your statement about fender vs door data plate error. Body style 09 in the VIN is for a fastback. Also, a Fastback GT does not have the "2 +2" designation on the fender, the GT badge is located there, and no where else is "2 + 2" used.
Jim
I have no idea who entered the information that was used in the "Mustang Production Guide". I tend to avoid posting information on Internet sites. My car is definitely a fastback and it does not say 2+2. I have always called it a 2+2 for obviously no good reason.
I also posted the numbers incorrectly (sorry) for the door tag and fender. Door tag is 5F09K and the 5F07K is on the fender, motor and transmission. I guess if one is going to be correct, the door tag is the one you would want.
In your opinion, should I even care that the numbers on the Engine and Transmission do not match the Vehicle VIN? Would this effect the value?
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I have no idea who entered the information that was used in the "Mustang Production Guide". I tend to avoid posting information on Internet sites. My car is definitely a fastback and it does not say 2+2. I have always called it a 2+2 for obviously no good reason.
I also posted the numbers incorrectly (sorry) for the door tag and fender. Door tag is 5F09K and the 5F07K is on the fender, motor and transmission. I guess if one is going to be correct, the door tag is the one you would want.
In your opinion, should I even care that the numbers on the Engine and Transmission do not match the Vehicle VIN? Would this effect the value?
All '65 Mustangs (GT or not) have the VIN stamped in 3 places (the door data plate, the driver's side fender apron (visible) and the passenger side fender apron (hidden by the fender - you'd need to remove the passenger fender for it to be visible). All 3 of the VINs in those locations should match. In the case of a K-code the VIN was also stamped into the engine block and the transmission in addition to the 3 places already mentioned. As a result, a K code '65 Mustang would have a matching VIN stamping in all 5 of those locations and they all should match.
Regarding the question of non-matching VINs impacting the value of the car it will complicate things. The fact that the 5 VINs are non-matching this will be a "red flag" and cause any future buyer to have concerns. However, given you are the original owner of the car you may be in a position to provide as much documentation as possible to offset this concerns.
Sample Documentation
- Any paperwork associated with the original purchase of the car (Original Dealer Invoice, Original "Owner's Warranty Card" that came with the car when new, Window Sticker)
- Any old pictures with you of the car when brand new
- Any invoices / service records detailing the maintenance of the car
However, for someone that wants a "true matching numbers" K-code car this will reduce the value of the car (regardless of any explanation of why the numbers do not match). I hope this helps.
Regards,
Ron
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I had to wait close to six months for delivery so I'm guessing they used what was sitting around in Dearborn...........
Though often used as an excuse IMHO I don't think that is the reason or what happened especially something connected with warranty and vehicle thief connotations
Is the door tag or an original? Its common to see reproduction here where owners wanted to change the original exterior color or add a deluxe interior.
Have seen a fair share of mis-stamps where the guy got the body code wrong but with the VIN on the engine, trans and body don't match it causes big problems often in this country. I would think it was allot easier to understand that the original engine is now gone and a replacement engine and trans were found from a car built at the same plant and about the same time as your car. Real real common for high performance cars to no longer have their original engines - unfortunate by product of their early lives and one of the reasons to have cars full inspected before they are purchased.
The replacement engine I put in my 69 CJ was about 1000 numbers off from its original vin so it does happen.
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All '65 Mustangs (GT or not) have the VIN stamped in 3 places (the door data plate, the driver's side fender apron (visible) and the passenger side fender apron (hidden by the fender - you'd need to remove the passenger fender for it to be visible). All 3 of the VINs in those locations should match. In the case of a K-code the VIN was also stamped into the engine block and the transmission in addition to the 3 places already mentioned. As a result, a K code '65 Mustang would have a matching VIN stamping in all 5 of those locations and they all should match.
Actually four places, one additional hidden VIN is stamped on the driver's side fender apron, opposite the RH side, so add one to all the locations you mention. The only one that counts is the VIN on the title.
The VIN listing in "The Mustang Production Guide" was entered before 1994 when the book was first published. Not too much Internet stuff back then. That entry was generated from a state's motor vehicle data base, which is why it has no other information. The State entry is from the High Performance book which is also before the full impact of the net. Somehow Tony Gregory got the state info from Haskell or Smart.
Jim
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Though often used as an excuse IMHO I don't think that is the reason or what happened especially something connected with warranty and vehicle thief connotations
Is the door tag or an original? Its common to see reproduction here where owners wanted to change the original exterior color or add a deluxe interior.
Have seen a fair share of mis-stamps where the guy got the body code wrong but with the VIN on the engine, trans and body don't match it causes big problems often in this country. I would think it was allot easier to understand that the original engine is now gone and a replacement engine and trans were found from a car built at the same plant and about the same time as your car. Real real common for high performance cars to no longer have their original engines - unfortunate by product of their early lives and one of the reasons to have cars full inspected before they are purchased.
The replacement engine I put in my 69 CJ was about 1000 numbers off from its original vin so it does happen.
I'm confused. You are saying the original engine and transmission could have been replaced in Dearborn before it was loaded on the freight car and transported to Des Moines by rail? That sounds a little far fetched although I guess anything could happen. The build date matches the date I took delivery so the chassis wasn't just sitting around. Remember, this car has always been in my possession and everything on the engine was exactly as it should be. Of course, before I just rebuilt it, it included the stuff I messed with back in the 60s.
The car has never been in an accident and the door, and the tag, are exactly as they were when I took delivery. I have never loaned the car to anyone and the only drivers were my late wife and myself.
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I don't see any reason for me not to complete the entry in the Production Guide. I didn't realize that my VIN was there. Heck, I didn't even know that the Deluxe Interior was on the tag as rocket289k said. I'll take a look tomorrow.
This is all very interesting! Guess it's a good thing it isn't for sale. Also a good thing it will probably never be in a Mustang Club show.
I think I will have a statement notarized stating that it is the way it was purchased new in 1965. Could save my daughter a hassle some day. :)
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Very odd situation..... sounds like Ford put you between a rock and a hard place. Not even sure how you will prove it is as delivered and if anyone would notarize a statement saying so.
Sounds like you should continue to enjoy the car and not worry about the value if you have no plans on selling after all these years. ;)
Sure would like so see some pictures of it!
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It was just suggested to me that it would be nice for my daughter to have something adding validity to the stated circumstances since she was not around yet when the car was purchased. Having something notarized does not make it fact, it just means that I swore that the facts stated are true.
There are a few small things to still finish on the car. Then a vacation. I hope to have it outside and driven in April and then I can take some decent pictures. And I'm sure I will enjoy the Kar this summer.
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Here is a picture of the engine before I started tearing it apart. Also a couple of misc. parts pictures. The picture of the body was when it came home.
http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/GregZ06/library/Mustang
PS: The Cosworth and Swift are not related to the Mustang.
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MAYBE there's other possibilities...You say it has always been in your possesion, but...has there ever been a possibility it spent the night at a dealership for any warranty repairs? Nearly 50 years ago is a really long time...This car has sat around here or there for months on end without driving it, viewing it or working on it. Just simply by you going away on vacation, another family member could have access to your car...It all begs another question: Why would somebody switch out with the same kind? This is all odd. Also, did I understand that the numbers found on the engine and trans are the same to each other AND that they are not listed in the K-code registry either? (that's just another odd note) This all leads me to think along the lines like Jeff is speaking about...just too many oddities in just one vehicle even though we are speaking to the original owner. Unfortunate though and should everything TRULY be as delivered, this would seem to be a real FIRST. :-\
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I never trusted dealerships. That's why I didn't have a Pre-Delivery done on it. They did an alignment once, and I stood there and watched them. It was a great car and never needed any major work of any kind. No way I would ever let a dealership have it overnight. :)
I know that the car was delivered from the factory as it is now, but I have no way to prove it so I guess I will let it drop. Thank you to everyone that gave insight and opinion.
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Here is a picture of the engine before I started tearing it apart. Also a couple of misc. parts pictures. The picture of the body was when it came home.
http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/GregZ06/library/Mustang
PS: The Cosworth and Swift are not related to the Mustang.
Wow, very nice looking car. ;)
If I owned it from new, I get it together and drive it. The fact that you are the original owner and the stories you have to tell are more valuable than matching numbers. 8)
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Not even sure how you will prove it is as delivered and if anyone would notarize a statement saying so.
You can get anything notarized. The only thing a notary verifies it that you are indeed the person signing the document.
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I guess that's why they say.....not worth the paper it's signed on.
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Just to verify that I really have a Mustang. I uploaded a couple of current pictures.
http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/GregZ06/library/Mustang
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Greg are you sure that's a Mustang?( Ha HA) I've seen other strange things from Ford. I owned a 1966 convertible that the warranty plate from Ford indicated that it left as a 6 cylinder (T code) but the VIN # on the inner aprons was for a 8 cylinder (C) code. The installed engine was a 6 cylinder.
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Generally speaking a consecutive number 754XXX with a scheduled build around June 9th (09T) compared to a 757XXX scheduled build around June 13th (13T) is a 3 day spread, give or take some days...........
Remember/consider that (from your example) the June 13th car could have been finished three weeks BEFORE the June 9th scheduled car from the examples taken from Ford documents. The three day difference is what a worker guessed would be the spread when the orders for the cars arrived at the factory and VIN's assigned. That could have been weeks or months before the car assembly was started.
Too bad we don't have exact dates like the 67- up cars :(
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Good point and I agree. My optimism for a couple days apart, going by scheduled build, is based around that engine and transmission being destine for a K-code only and those K-codes, generally being special orders and sharing many of same special parts,
K code in general would not be special order items they were just another option no more special than 6 cylinders only lower volume
that they would have been delayed together (as Greg45 mentioned).
Are you referring to engine parts or something else. Have not seen any documented "delays" or shortages - do you have some to offer. Preassembled engines and trans arrived when needed, unloaded and moved to holding areas at the car assembly plants. If there had been a delay in H pipes (for example) that would not delay the delivery of the engine or other items that were destine for the car assembly plant. Just meant that no cars need that part would be started once the current supply at the plant was gone. Just like any other part
It would be interesting to find out at what point in time the engine and transmission were stamped in the factory to help purely guess if it could have been a mixup or potentially a quality control issue with another engine/transmission substituted.
Depended on the year and plant. At San Jose I would guess that it was on the mezzanine where the VINs were applied. Engines and trans (assembled together) would have met the cars after that point - with either the buildsheet with the rotation of the car or the number written on the assembly, depending on what plant, on the engine and trans assembly making it difficult for the wrong engine to go to the wrong car without some one ignoring their job.
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A K-code GT is a special order.
Respectfully disagree - If so each K code would have had a 6 digit DSO on the door tag which they didn't - along with the supporting documentation in the glove box telling the dealer and service center the non-regular production features the car had. Since the K code and the GT package were both regular production options it does not fit the description of or needed a special order.
With less than 1% of production I consider the K-code a special order in itself. Do you happen to have a more accurate figure?
Low production does not equate to special order - if so bench seats would have also likely been one. There are no accurate figures on any production numbers that I'm aware of. They were reported to have been destroyed during a fire at the Rotunda - just what I've been told. Only number that has gotten repeated over and over again is from a book written in the early days by Walter Miller. Never took the opportunity to ask him where those numbers came from or if they were a guess
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With less than 1% of production I consider the K-code a special order in itself. Do you happen to have a more accurate figure?
There are a couple of factors not included:
Marketing forecasts determined what model cars should be built well before actual production began to fill dealer inventory. That means that the first cars off the assembly line, "K" cars included, were not "special orders".
Is a "special order" from a dealer a "special order" or is it to fill inventory. My San Jose 65 GT Fastback was delivered to a Sacramento dealer, but was sold in a Redwood City dealership 3 months later. An inventory car.
A special order from a customer is just that, a "special order". It does not necessarily have an order number in the DSO.
Back to the original Query. In talking about the mis-matched VINs with a friend (between us, we own 5 HP Mustangs), there is another possibility, the original engine failed at final test. There was another engine available, so to make the earlier sale, it was swapped (we'll get another engine later). I have seen and documented a similar VIN problem where a 64 1/2 "D" code convertible was re-identified as a "F" code (5F08D192898 to 5F08F205641). The only conclusion was the engine failed. As it was real near the end of the production year, a decision was made to get it out of here and sell the car with whatever was available. The door data plate info - 76A M 86 20G 52 1 6. The last I saw the car was at a swap meet up for sale in California.
Jim
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To my wife and me, it was special order. :) We had a 427 Galaxy convertible that I paid about $1,300.00 for that we traded in when the Mustang was ordered. The dealer took possession of the trade-in at the time of the order and we then proceeded to spend several months driving POSs off the dealers back lot. Some were so bad we made it only a few blocks from the dealership before they died. I really don't remember exactly when we placed the order, but I know we drove the dealer's cars in a lot of snowy weather before taking delivery in June.
Side note, according to a friend that purchased his K-code that same spring, the dealer had a 427SC Cobra and a GT350 in the showroom near the time we took delivery of our car. I remember seeing the Cobra (no back seat) and the GT350 (cheap looking and only in white). I much preferred our Ivy Green with all the options. If I only knew then!