ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1969 Mustang => Topic started by: Stangly on July 23, 2014, 11:51:28 PM
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I have finally found a nice looking big block I'm interested in buying, but not real sure of the value. I'm traveling to Minesota this weekend to look at what appears to be a pretty nice 69 Mach I S-Code. Its about a four hour drive from where I live here in Bismarck ND. It so happens that I'm going to the exact town where the car is for my sons hockey tournement. I checked Hagerty's value section but would love some input from more experineced buyers, sure I'm in the right spot here. Here are the details I know so far from an online add and a couple emails from the seller. The car is white and it is a true S code I asked for the 5th digit in the vin. It has 64,000 original miles and original paint and is suppose run and look good. The car looks good in the photos but you know how that goes. He is asking $32,000 any input would be greatly appreciated for this would be a major purchase for me.
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/460-230714215800.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/460-230714215832.jpeg)
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/2/460-230714215901.jpeg)
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From the pictures, shouldn't the AC hoses run behind the air cleaner?
Also, from the engine picture, the air cleaner and snorkel don't look correct. Maybe it's the angle? Should have a valve on the side. Air cleaner base are the same as 1969 Q code. Snorkel should be a 428CJ with a reducer on the end where the S tube would go.
Heat shields are 2 pieces, and very tough to find.
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I have a $350 Extell paint gauge accurate to 1/10 of a mil. A mil is equal to 1/1000 of an inch. The first thing I do is to gauge the paint every square inch. Original paint is 3 to 7 mils, any repaint is 12 to 18 mils with primer. The gauge goes on overload if the sheet steel is more that 45 mills away, which indicates filler or very thick paint, either one is not good.
As the previous poster noted there seems to be some missing parts. Is that a replacement washer bottle or a coolant overflow container? The brake booster looks very corroded. The rule of thumb with rusty cars is that you only see about 10% of the rust, so if you find some, there is plenty more that is hidden.
Of course rust and rust repair is the biggy with these cars. I would be very careful with this rust belt car. If it is original there should be no fresh undercoating and no hack repairs on the rails, floor, or torque boxes.
My gut impression is that if this car was honest and dry, it would have been sold already. Good luck.
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Guys,
Thanks for the great advice I have two 302 cars and am familiar with those but have no experience with a big block. The first car I restored (Waiting for paint) was a North Dakota car and spent some time in Mn. I vowed I would never restore a ruster again. Like I said this alot of money for me, don't know what I'll do if it checks out kinda of hoping its not the real deal.
I have one question yet ,if someone out there can answer. Is Hagerty a good valuation tool, are there other ones.out there I could check value.
Thanks,
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Personally I have never found any usable purpose for the value guides other than to talk buyers into buying cars or support claims when purchasing insurance. In general IMHO there are never enough public sales to base general value (especially in the case of S code 69's) of any particular cars considering there are no to cars that are the same and very few that are similar in condition, mileage/usage and options.
I've always been terrible when trying to figure out what someone will pay for something would only offer that you compare what that same $32K would buy you on the same day - basically comparative worth. That is only after you figure out what your really thinking of buying, get a Marti report and for those dollars a educated, informed and experienced second opinion. Considering the part of the country going to need IMHO to check close for repair and cancer to get a warm comfortable feeling before buying
Would expect that the Marti report will show no front spoiler, rear wing or rear slats ;)
As a side note - interesting to see it does not have a console can't recall the last time I've seen that. No ashtray (at least not visible) at the bottom of the dash - so maybe something is missing
I'm betting that that is not all original paint - pictures of the engine compartment seem to show (possibly) the fender bolts being painted in a quickie,lower standard paint job - but might just be the angle - we hope ;)
Engine compartment and engine look to have been rattle canned. Hood hinges are paint black
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Jeff,
Thanks for advice, thanks again to everybody I will proceed with caution and do some more homework. A friend of mine noticed the black dash thinking it should white. He also said that most of the automatics had dealer installed A/C and the hoses typically where run in front of the air cleaner. I plan to order a marti if the car checks out. Thanks again everybody I will let you know what I find out.
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A friend of mine noticed the black dash thinking it should white
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Only if its a Cougar ::)
He also said that most of the automatics had dealer installed A/C and the hoses typically where run in front of the air cleaner......
The car is representing factory installed AC our there would be a thin box at the bottom of the dash not the vents in the dash pad
All the dealer installed AC I've seen (do have a NOS kit with diagrams of the installation ;) the line pass behind the air cleaner
Maybe your "friend" is a Chevy owner :o Just kidding
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Jeff and the rest of you are correct in that there are so few cars to choose from. Finding a good one that is fairly priced is like finding a needle in the haystack. Any 45 year old car needs something, even if it has been restored. If you add up what needs to be done on a car that you are considering buying, as a retail repair value from a reputable repair shop, the costs are staggering.
A complete 1969 CJ mustang that needs restoring costs 18-25K. The same car that has been restored at some point where it is a number 2 condition car costs 52K to 75K. The harsh reality is that it is far cheaper to buy an all around nice car as opposed to restoring it, unless it is a hobby and you have unlimited funds. Reproduction parts are for the most part garbage. OEM parts are insanely expensive, if you can find what you need.
Ford FE engines are much more trouble than your garden variety 302, 351. Part of the reason is that the engine has been rebuilt and Ford FE experts may not have done the work, so you never know what you get. The other reason is that a guy that bought a big block 45 years ago had one thing in mind, to go fast and hard against the competition. I can't imagine an original FE engine in existence that has been unmolested and is still running good, although there must be a few in some collection somewhere. I have seen small blocks that are original and still run beautifully. I have a 289 now and sold a 6 cylinder that ran fantastic.
Collecting and maintaining muscle cars is expensive and time consuming, one must have the burning desire and a strong stomach to enjoy ownership. It can turn into a disappointing experience in a hurry if you are not realistic in your expectations.
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Well here is what I've found out about the car after visiting with the owner and going over the car. The car is a San Jose car and came to Mn in 1995 from Az, the seller showed me the title paper work. the car was sold two years later to another buyer in Mn who owned the car up until three years ago. The seller is a boat dealer and took the car in on trade for a boat from the last owner who kept the car garaged. The paint is not completely original there is filler on the left rear quarter panel, you can see where the paint was blended to just behind the front door. It does not appear to have been any patch panels added from inside the trunk. The fender bolts are all painted white so I think they may have been painted also. The engine compartment and undercarriage of the engine area has been cleaned up with black rattle can pretty much everything but the hoses. This looks pretty old because there is a good accumulation of grease and oil over the paint. The frame rails, and the torque boxes are perfect some light surface rust no cancer and no damage. The floor plans and trunk are look great with no holes or pitting evidence of factory paint runs on torque boxes are there. From the engine bay back it looks untouched. The car ran and sounded good going back in a little while to test drive. The bad news is the engine tag was in place and is from a 70 two barrel car (390 70 12 top #'s and 0F 311 A6 bot #'s). The seller thinks the engine is original but is not much of a car guy and wasn't positive. So either the engine tag was missing and someone replaced it with the incorrect tag or the engine has been replaced at some time. If the latter is true then that would have been the time when the black rattle can was used to spruce things up. Looking for advice on how to verify if this is a true S-code engine. Like I said in my earier post not real familiar with the big block engine. Any tips or help would be great. I will be leaving town tomorrow and will post the photos I took which will hopefully shed some more light on the picture.
Thanks,
David,
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I have seen 69 S codes that we're nice cars go for 35 to 50K. http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch
The car is missing so many parts that I would not buy it for any price. The car has been raped. The seller is a pro and he is looking for a sucker. If the car has no other surprises, it is worth 15K tops as a driver, not a restoration candidate.
Don't give up. Scrape together 45K and look for Cobra Jet Mustang, that's what I did. I had given up looking for one and my friend kept pushing me. Sure enough one popped up and she was a beauty for a fair price. I was actively looking ready to buy for almost 2 years.
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After buying my fair share of Mustangs & Shelby's over the last 40 or so years for me or others I would offer that patience's and time are normally your best friend. Time will allow you to look at and see allot more cars and in turn be able to compare while gaining experience with what to look for, what they sell for and what is a fair deal.
Yes there are those rare occasions where the first car you see might be the best deal and car you may ever find - but IMHO this is a rare case and you have to choose how you will gain your experience. Will it be by getting a education or by learning the hard way
Don't be "that guy" that others will use as an example of what not to buy or not to do ;)
Asking here before you jumped was a good start
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My family and I took the car for a drive this afternoon. My sons 2001 mustang with a V6 had twice the get up and go that this car had. It started and ran great but literally had no power. I'm convinced that the engine in the car is not the correct engine. The guy selling stated he took this on trade for $28,000 towards a boat. I think he is the one that will end up getting stuck holding the bag. I told him I believe that the original engine had been swapped at some time. He will probably end up passing it on to somebody that doesn't do their homework. If I want one of these big blocks I will need to spend much more time educating myself on the FE engines so I know that what I'm paying for is the real deal. Thanks again to everybody for all the advice and the education I really appreciate the help I will post the photos when I get back home.
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http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/4542752257.html
Interesting. He wants 43K, there is a typo in the ad. If he could send a 100 HD pics of everything, something like this might be worth a plane ticket.
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http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/4542752257.html
Interesting. He wants 43K, there is a typo in the ad. If he could send a 100 HD pics of everything, something like this might be worth a plane ticket.
Or hiring someone with some experience to go look at it ;)
Its a bit more than the OP was looking at I think but common thought has always been buy a car better than you can afford - restorers and owners never get back everything they put in a GOOD car
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Sweet looking car and it's blue my favorite color.
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Not sure if I did this correctly but hopefully this is a link to the photos I took this last weekend. I feel the car is in great shape but am questioning the engine hopefully the photos will shed some light.
http://s1216.photobucket.com/user/Phoward513/slideshow/69%20Mach%20I (http://s1216.photobucket.com/user/Phoward513/slideshow/69%20Mach%20I)
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Not sure if I did this correctly but hopefully this is a link to the photos I took this last weekend. I feel the car is in great shape but am questioning the engine hopefully the photos will shed some light.
Real hard to tell much about a 428CJ (if it is one or not) with it together and in a car. But the date code showing the 0 over the two dots E22 should be a confirmation that things have changed somewhat since the car was new. At least that is what I'm seeing in those two pictures of that area
Not unusual as many of these cars were trashed and abused
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Jeff. I believe the pics are from the 69 white S code Stangly looked at.
You mentioned CJ and I was thinking the same thing when I noticed the plugged reactor ports and chromed valve covers. It could be a 72 or later smog FE engine with the 390. I believe 72 and later 390 engines had 2 BB carbs, but I could be mistaken. The date code was illegible by the oil filter and there was no C6ME or other block number visible. The manifold runner in front of the carb did appear to be the wide CJ type.
Stangly needed to pull all the numbers to get a good start on this. If the car has a CJ engine then that changes things a little on the car.
Date code on oil filter flange. Block numbers. Evidence of a windage tray. Carb number, distributor number, intake number and date code. The CJ has 4 unused exhaust bolt holes per side if I remember correctly. There is an "N" between 2 and 3 plugs on CJ heads.
There are a lot of minor issues that could tame a true cobra jet engine in terms of performance. However, even when my 428 CJ secondary's we're inoperative, the car still could outrun a 390.
The body of the car looked dry but accident damage is another area of concern which is hard to detect in some cases. If the car was hit hard 40 years ago, dealership body shop personnel back in the day we're seasoned professionals and did the work correctly, and of course had the correct Ford parts as well.
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When I appraise a mustang the first thing I do is look at the gaps and fitment. If that looks good I gauge the paint, especially the rockers. Next I look for date codes on the panels. The appraisal process takes me about 8 hours.
Jeff was extremely helpful during my last appraisal with regard to date codes on a 66 convertible. The odometer shows 15000 miles and after servicing the car and spending some time with it, I am 90% sure the mileage is original. The car had a terrible repaint and did not show well. When I first laid eyes on the car the first thing I noticed was that the chrome around the wind wings, the rubber, and the window felt was perfect. Dirty but perfect. The bushings in the window cranks were tight, the headlight switch has no slop, and the plastic bushings in the throttle linkage was all there. The suspension is original and the power steering and steering box is tight as a drum. The sector shaft screw has not been disturbed. The button fuel pump has the original straps on the fuel line from the frame fuel tube to the pump.
The engine trans and rear end are quiet and smooth as silk. Like showroom fresh.
All the tags are present except the carb, and I am in the process of building a part and date correct carb.
The feed and return metal tubes for the choke heater attached to the exhaust manifold are there and in good shape. The autolight BF42 powertip plugs are tan and clean, must be the second set. I believe the original plugs had a star logo, these have the "r' logo.
The radiator is original with fomoco # C4ZE Y2 dated 3-66. The block drains came right out and the coolant was scale and debris free. I removed the t stat and reattached the housing and ran the engine for 10 minutes with the radiator petcock wide open and the block drains open adding water at the same rate. I ran the hose into the radiator for another 10 minutes with the engine off so that there would be no hot spots and was careful not to overpressure the radiator with the garden hose during the flushing process.
The more I look for the fatal flaw the more I find a wonderful original example of a 1966 mustang convertible. Thanks again Jeff.
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http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/4542752257.html
Interesting. He wants 43K, there is a typo in the ad. If he could send a 100 HD pics of everything, something like this might be worth a plane ticket.
+1, that looks like a much better car than the original one posted.
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I just looked through the complete slide show of this White '69 Mach 1.
I'm no big-block expert, so I can't even begin to help you identify what is really under that hood. However I do see that there has been a lot of work done to this car with no thought on originality ... nothing that is not reverse-able. Looks very solid and mostly original ... body & interior wise.
As far as it's current "doggy performance", if you look at the driver's side pictures of the aftermarket Holley carb you will see that someone modded the accelerator bracket to work with this carb (pretty common). The bracket is only mounted to the left rear carb stud and the reason why this car is such a "dog" is pretty obvious. Because the bracket was not properly modified and secured, it has rotated clockwise on the mounting stud so FULL THROTTLE is only maybe a 3rd throttle !! Fix this and I'm sure this engine will come alive and no longer feel like it would have it's doors blown off by a V6 SN-95 Mustang.
Doug
1st post ... I'm from the '69 Mustang forum and recently found this gem of a site. Hopefully I'll find time to properly introduce myself sometime in the near future. For now, here is a link to my photo album over on the '69 site ...
http://www.1969stang.com/gallery/stangs-R-me-Deluxe-GT-Hardtop
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http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/4542752257.html
Interesting. He wants 43K, there is a typo in the ad. If he could send a 100 HD pics of everything, something like this might be worth a plane ticket.
That car looks like it could be more cobbled together than the OP's white Mach !!
A couple of quick observations ...
The car has an A/C upper & lower dash in it and no A/C under the hood. Owner clams it to be a DRAG PACK car and I did not think you could get A/C with this option. It also does not have a TACH DASH which I thought DID come std. with the DRAG PACK option.
As I stated in my last post about the white car, I'm no big block expert ... so I'd think those that ARE would spot other issues on this supposedly SCJ D-P car.
Doug
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Whoa, hang on, disregard my earlier comment. I missed the bit about there being a typo in the ad. There's a LOT of difference between paying $34k and $43k for that blue Mach. At $34k, you could probably come out if you had to fix a few things. At $43k, it'd better be a pretty nice/correct car.
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I agree that the blue SCJ had some serious issues based on the few pictures available. As you stated, 10K can forgive a lot of sins.
I am not sure that all SCJ came with a tach. At the time, a SUN column mounted tach was the top choice and I think you could get the supers "base" with no options.
There is an army of car buyers that pounce on a honest car that has not been molested. Sometimes however, the seller is unavailable for a number of reasons. Chief among them is the wife wants the car sold, baby, bills, divorce and so forth, and the husband is dragging his feet, quite understandably so. If you can get her on the phone then you can be first in line to see it and make a deal if the car stands up.
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Well I spoke with the seller today about the white S-Code. The asking price is $32K he told me his bottom line was $29K. I explained that not much of the engine compartment was original but the car was very nice. I said the most I would be willing to pay would be $18K. He said he was firm on the price and would probably keep the car. I explained that I would need to stick at at minimum $10K into the engine compartment to get it original and that we were to far apart. He who hawd a bit about how nice the car was. Then there was a long pause and the wife card came up and for a limited time he would take $23K. Just wanted to bounce this off the forum and see how it sticks.
Thanks for all the input everybody,
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Look at the pics under zoom, especially the undercarriage. I don't know if it is a shadow, but a few things seem amiss.
Let us know what you can make out and I will tell you what I see as potential issues.
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That car looks like it could be more cobbled together than the OP's white Mach !!
A couple of quick observations ...
The car has an A/C upper & lower dash in it and no A/C under the hood. Owner clams it to be a DRAG PACK car and I did not think you could get A/C with this option. It also does not have a TACH DASH which I thought DID come std. with the DRAG PACK option.
As I stated in my last post about the white car, I'm no big block expert ... so I'd think those that ARE would spot other issues on this supposedly SCJ D-P car.
Doug
I've attached pics of the 1969 Ford Dealer "DRAG-PACK" and "SHAKER" flyer that a fellow '69 owner gave me a photo copy of a few years back which is where I had read about the standard Tach on 428 cars.
As many of you probably know, the Drag-Pack option was not available until later in '69 production and the Shaker is only shown as an option for the 428 in the Illustrated Facts Book. In this flyer, it shows that the Shaker is now available on all 351 and 390 engines ... $45.39 MSRP for 351 2V or 4V and $84.25 for the 390 4V.
As far as the DRAG-PACK, it was available with any 428 equipped Fairlane or Mustang, but only without A/C.
At the bottom of the "SHAKER" page, it states the Tachometer came STANDARD with 4-Speed on both 390 & 428 cars and was optional with Auto.
So, if this blue 428 car originally came w/ A/C (as the upper & lower dash show), it can't be an original DRAG-PACK car. If the dash is not original (why would someone got to the trouble to swap out the dash and not add the A/C under the hood ??), then it could have the Drag-Pack option and not have a Tach since it is an Automatic.
Doug
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I looked at the pictures again, and at $23k, it's really hard to say. In one way, I'd say it's worth it; I had a friend here in NE Georgia sell a driver-quality 351 '69 Mach for $25k just a few weeks ago. The body on the car you're looking at looks pretty nice and original. It's clear that the car has had a "rattle-can restoration" on the engine bay (wiring harness and motor mounts have overspray). But what gets me too is all of the little stuff. The door ajar switches have been painted over. The interior is serviceable, but is missing the console (and that's not cheap to replace). The quickie paint job turns me off the most, and it makes me wonder what else has been skimped on in the past when work was done.
What's your ultimate goal for this car? You could probably spend $10-15k more and have a much better car to start with if you're going for a concours restoration. Something else to think about is the rarity of the car; it's a well-optioned car, but it's not super rare or optioned out. If you're going to dump $20k in a restoration, is this the car that will get you your money back when it comes time to sell it? Just something to think about. And I don't mean to bust your chops--I'm in the same boat with the '69 Mach I have now. It's a garden variety 351W/auto car, and I've got enough in restoring it that I probably could've bought a big-block car. If you're doing it for fun, then that's one thing, but if you're doing it to make money, I don't see all that much profit on this car even at $23k. The 390 is desirable over the 351W, but most people with money to spend are going to skip straight to a 428 car.
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The torque box appears to have been pulled down away from the frame on one pic and there is a buckle on the rear frame rail on another pic. All the mickey mouse repair and maintenance work performed on the car is grossly substandard. The issue is that internal hard parts and wiring work might have been done by the same genius. If the pics are inaccurate, and digital pics can be deceiving, and the car has not been hit, and it is not full of filler on the panels, it is a 15K driver. I would pay that if I was in the area, after all, it is a big block car.
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I want to thank everybody for all the great input. Many people have pointed out several things wrong with this car for the price the seller is asking. I have decided to pass on this purchase and plan to educate myself about the FE engines. I have come across two rust free cars in the last seven years in my part of the country ND, and have bought one. I only paid $3250 for it so the investment was minimal. This is a major purchase and for this kind of money I want to make sure I know what I'm getting. This post has giving me a much greater knowledge of big block cars than I had before. It has become evident that I have a lot more homework to do before such a purchase can be made. Thanks again to everybody for your time and great level of detail.
One last question and we put this post to bed, Is there a book out there on big blocks similar to Bob Mannels book on small blocks that I could study.
David,
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..........One last question and we put this post to bed, Is there a book out there on big blocks similar to Bob Mannels book on small blocks that I could study.
Not the same size or to the same wide depth but there is a specific 428CJ manual that focuses pretty much just on the engine. Nothing out there for the 390s.
Consider also just not focusing on the engine as there are allot of other parts that make up the car that can make it a good or bad deal.
Good luck with your search - there does seem to be allot (well a fair amount compared to other times) of big b lock cars for sale (67-69) And there is always a ton of 69 428CJ - just have to weed your way through allot of them to find the best one for you